From: Ihateliars1@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk Subject: Judyth's words Date: 8 Nov 2001 00:33:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 431 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.213.181 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1005208433 23579 127.0.0.1 (8 Nov 2001 08:33:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2001 08:33:53 GMT everything below is from emails Judyth sent to people +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ What Lee DID tell me is that he prepared Marina for his sudden departure at any time. We kept running into difficulties, but finally the monkeys (last step before one final stage of culture) had no immune system responses and were dropping dead of "lung camncer." galloping lung cancer. Finally had to test it on human(s). Lee knew that Marina needed psychological preparation for his trip to Mexico City. She was pregnant and the Paine pains could watch over her. And then, he might have been required to go in into Cuba. With some luck, it might have happened as early as end of July, but in the end, it wasn't ready until near the end of August despite all we could do. That isn't how it worked out. He came back very down, knowing he was slated for betrayel. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The truth is that as early as 1962 these viri, which first were noted because they had infected the attenuated polio vaccine system top to bottom, in the 1950's, were since then being deliberately placed into monkeys and the viri customized for a variety of purposes, depressing the immune system the ostensible goal, so that concurrently introduced biological agents might have enhanced effects. I was involved, having been told that this research was necessary to learn how to depress cancer metabolism and growth rates, and that the study of the mechanics of potential cancer rejection by the human body could be facilitated by introducing such immunodepressing viri and retroviri..=====.====== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lee knew at once when left holding the bag that he was going to be set up. You don't treat somebody like this unless they are dispensable. He knew. He left the materials in a souvenir shop somewhere, he told me, where it was kept for somebody to pick up. I think he went both to a bullfight and to a Jai Alai game, that's where the Mafia and anti-Castroites met when they went down there.. He even went to a university medical school trying to find a contact he learned about. By then, these materials would have died, but there were others, a few others, he had also couriered in, i don't know what they were. In other words, this small suitcase held than one (disguised) biological or chemical material. I know that ours looked like a thermos bottle of chicken broth, you could even drink it without its hurting you, because the livc cells clung to the sides of the thermos and would feel like slime and be almost invisible. Your stomach fluids would take care of the few free-floaters. Hopefully! There were supposed to be two other thermos bottles, full of sterile medium to replensih the cells. keep them alive close to two weeks, at least twelve days. In a lab situation, the materials were stabilized and could be kept going indefinitely as long as you kept reinserting the materials into mice, harvesting the tumors, growing trypsined cells in vitro, then keeping the cycles going by using mice again. The fact that Dave still had a number of mice in his home lab when Garrison was investigating him, and the fact that both Jack Ruby and (probably) Clay Shaw died of this galloping form of llung cancer doesn't surprise me. The tumor carried the immunosuppressing virus alongside the cancer, one neat package. I know Dr. Mary Sherman was still working with the materials in December, 1963, and most likely still was in July of 1964 when she was found murdered. A radio broadcast (I have a letter attesting to this) reported that cancer cells were stolen from a doctor's home, about the same time as her death, but this never is mentioned in the newspapers. At any rate, Dr. Mary took the cells that grew best from Dave Ferrie's place and inspected them constantly under microscope. The strongest strains were sometimes subjected to additional processes to enhance their virulence, then sent back for injection into more mice, see how it went? And the material was able to be made ready for use in a matter of days, always from in vitro sources. To keep these cells growing longer, PROLOID was used. Saved some mice and extended shelf life of the in vitro materials. It's a metabolism enhancer. Well, I thought it significant that Dave Ferrie had proloid, Jim Garrison is concerned about it, when Dave was found dead. My poor friend. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A lot of the FBI are Mormons and I got interested originally in Mormonism through talking to an FBI agent who said he was a Mormon when I was in college. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ====I have to choose between giving out all the details i know and not having an airtight story, in that some areas i cannot prove, or leaving out an immense number of details and presenting some bare bones here...i have a bare bones set of evidence that establishes that i knew Lee Harvey Oswald. I have a great deal of additional circumstantial evidence that should confirm to anybody with a brain that I had an affair with him. I have a great deal of circmstantial evidence and the knowledge and training and some actual pieces of evidence to suggest that I did work with David Ferrie and Dr. Mary Sherman under Dr. Alton Ochsner, whose direction of me is establishable through my newspaper articles, etc. tracing my specialized training and the fact that i ended up in New Orleans, of all places, from Florida, in April of 1963. It is who i knew and what they did and what we did that then comes into play: i was in the center of the effort in New Orleans to kill Castro, and my knowledge makes it clear what went on later, and why. I have also showed how close a relationship Ochsner and Shaw really had, closer than was realized, and I have living witnesses who have testified that I was involved with Lee. I have poetry and some written materials i wrote about losing Lee, much of it coded. I have my strange history: brilliant career suddenly going nowhere, and silence all these years. My entire life reflects what happened there--little things like naming our first child "Susie" after my landlady who hid Lee for me, keeping all my check stubs from Reily for no obvious reason, and living in places and cities where I could look into the Mafia and the political leaders: lived near Mexico City in 1967, in Austin in 1965, in Houston 1968, and encouraged my sister to move to either Austin or Dallas 9they've been in Dallas about twenty-five years now). I teach college English--about as far as you can get from biochemistry and cancer research. I can show you papers that I wrote and artwork i did that never reflected my real name--everything from "Richmond Baker" to "James Rising" or "Anne Whiting." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Noticed this name, Mary Brengel, someone I was never introduced to, and went to McAdams' site. I'd like you to know that whoever this lady is, she wasn't there the first time I was introduced to Mr. Banister (as Marina) which has already been mentioned a long while ago in the book as having occurred in late April or early May --that is BEFORE June of 1963. And if anybody thinks I am able to juggle endless dates and appearances and get them all so they don't conflict-- as in this case--contrast with (so-called) Lee's "best friend" Ron Lewis---well, nobody is that smart. For the sheer number of eyewitness descriptions I can give that you will see pan out, time is on my side. Sandra had silicone implants, which supposedly conveniently gave trouble about the time, I think, that Garrison needed her in town the least. Off s/he went to New York, and though s/he was a famous attraction, Mac said he never saw Sandra again and wonders if s/he is still alive. I think Sandra wisely hid itself.. As others of us did. S/he supposedly cared for Garrison. Sandra worked in The Five Hundred Club but I think I remember independently that s/he also worked in the one across the street to start with, then came top billing, and a "room at the top" on second floor at The Five Hundred Club, where Garrison most likely, by the way, was not the only client. This exotic dancer was idolized by many a man who did not know the anatomical peculiarities as Garrison had to know them, despite operations and implants. Admit I smile at thinking about the film JFK and Jim Garrison's true 'family matters.' Hope you're not offended that I wrote s/he--- I really do have compassion for these people, honest. It's the technical bent in me.....There should be some way to verify the condition of Garrison's mistress, anatomically speaking, that is, among long-time N.O.-based mafia members. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have not been able to bring myself to read a fictionalized account of Lee. The "non-fiction" one I read (Marina and Lee) was a travesty. I've read deLillo's "White Noise," that's it. But interestingly, though neither of us believed in it a white, Lee and I read our horoscopes, usually on the bus (people left newqspapers on the bus, sometimes we got one at a restaurant)--- and Lee was a "Libra" I think. I wonder if DeLillo took the nomenclature literally: "Freedom." Since we read our horoscopes almost daily together, if you go and read these startling horoscopes, you'll see how much they affected us. It was uncanny. The horoscope readings served as chronological signposts for my memory, as I was able to go through themm and in this way recalled many otherwise obscure matters. "rays agitate high-strung individuals" or some such wording, for a horoscope headline, struck both of us strongly, because I had decided to go ahead and marry Robert (after all, Lee had told me he had previously beat Marina--stunned me at the time, later we addressed it--)--- and we were both amazingly upset at my decision. But I was also afraid Robert would be angry, suspect another man, hunt up Lee-- and that would be trouble we didn't want. What we DID want was for Robert to get a job that would keep him out of town...as I had many hours of work to do away from the apartment.....there was some connection between Evangeline Seismic (where Robert had applied for a job) and Dixie Dynamite (that supplied E. S. and also had Schlumberger connections at Houma), and though I did not realize it at the time, it now seems that Robert's out-of-town job was possibly arranged, since Ochsner, et al, found out about Robert within days of my meeting Lee. in New Orleans and therefore had to arrange a "real" job for me, conveniently at Reily's, at lee's insistence. By the time Robert's job was over and he was in town again, the project was nearly finished (he visited some weekends, but not much).==j== =Well, here's a 1999 book telling part of what I told you about Sandra over a year ago, now. Wonder what month the book came out. This is a nice supporting reference. As you can see from this little excerpt, she was an attraction-- no doubt to more than one man, whatever those original endowments were. And you get a little feel of what we experienced...living in New orleans, surrounded by all of this, .we who did not drink!..In some ways, our infidelity seemed the norm for this place, too.....we were at The Five Hundred Club in afternoon hours, or early evening, before the swarm of clients poured in. At least you should be able to see why Sparky --Jack Ruby--came to the Big Easy to recruit outstanding girls to Dallas. As I said previously, and don't think this is to be found in print anywhere, "Jada" (Janet --I saw her, then she was called Cuffari/now known as Conforto--right, Martin?) was forced by the mob to go to Dallas, she did not go willingly, when she got mixed up with this 21 year old named Robert (I committed, as you all should know, all facts connected with the name 'Robert' as one of several similar memory devices). This was her manager at the time i heard of it, and in his own way defied mob control, so she was forced to go to Dallas.====j====== +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The hardest for me was finding out how many times Lee apparently beat Marina, as he also told me she gave as good as she got, and kicked him even in the privates, so I did not feel sorry for her. Also, I've thought about how she was supposed to be able to lock HIM in the bathroom so he wouldn;t go out and shoot Nixon (who was not in town anyway). She has lee doing ridiculous things. Yes, lee tried to emulate 007, he really did. he loved the concept of being that cool, and he practiced some of it with me, just trying out "the Bond attitude." We also saw one of the new james Bond movies that summer, I can;t remember which one anymore, it was the second James Bond movie to come out, maybe it was Goldfinger, I no lonmger remember, because I'[ve watched ALL the james bond movies ever since, sort of fantasizing that Lee would be watching, too, with me. And I loved the movie True Lies because it reminds me so much of what Lee was really doing right under the nose of an unsuspecting wife!==that said, yes, I idealized Lee, he was my lover. Why shouldn;t I have thought he was wonderful? he had his flaws, so does every man, but honestly, he was an unselfish lover, this proves a lot about him on a very basis level. I do find it hard to admit to flaws, especially when so many have been made up about him.======more comments below==== > << The second point I wish to make is that Lee did tell me this > information relatively early in our relationship. if he had been bragging, I > believe he would have mentioned it more than once. he only brought it up once. > =====The reason we didn;t talk about it again was because of my profound ignorance, not because Lee would not have been willing. I had been immersed in a very specialized world. I had little real interest in Gary Powers and did not understand the relevance about whether Lee saw him in person or merely spoke to him. But strange, I thought he said something about Gary Powers was kept out of sight and that people did not know where he was, and then was suddenly trotted out.==== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was "Bishop" and also "Mr. B." But I now believe that "Mr. B" was Bender as bpoth Phillips and bender worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that "Mr. B" or "Bishop" (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name "Bishop") seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man. ===j=== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ We (Lee and I ) by November 20, 1963, believed Phillips to be the man who Lee met in Texas at beginning of September, and I now believe Veciana was possibly the man who came up to Phillips, Lee said as if by a prearranged signal, so I wonder if Veciana has memory of that, if this is the same man. . Lee, by the way, could speak Spanish: though not as fluently as Russian, good enough to get by anytime. He didn't mention the language spoken, I have to add. Getting details out of Lee was like getting details out of Martin Shackelford. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ But the smooth-talking handler (by mid-November, at least, Lee believed him to be David Atlee Phillips) indicated that Lee needed to get a look at this other fellow. It might have been to make it look like this would be his contact in Mexico City. The elaborateness of this ploy is obvious in that Lee therefore had more confidence when he went to Mexico City that this man, or somebody perhaps who would show him this man's picture, whatever, I don't know the details, would be his contact. As you well know, Lee was duped and left to fend for himself down there. Lee termed it a "betrayal." Phillips, and/or Frank Bender: involved in that. I thought (and Lee, did, too, until the end) that they were the same man until I realized sometime recently that "Mr. B" and "Bishop" were not necessarily the same person. HOW I LEARNED MORE THAN I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN Lee may have known all along that they were different people and just didn't give me that knowledge. I would never have heard mention of any of these names, I think, except that I pretended to know more than I did. Had I shown ignorance, there would have been additional things Lee absolutely would not have told me at all. If you showed any hesitation about anything mentioned, bingo, that was the end of any conversation about it, so I did pretend, nodding my head, to far more than I really knew, and so obtained far more information, I believe, than anybody thought I had obtained. In the end, Lee was confiding everything to me. He felt absolutely isolated. This is one reason I think I'm still alive: they probably didn't realize how much I did find out. You will see how persistent I am, and that I will ferret out everything possible, without making any fanfare. Soon will be working again fulltime and won't be able to dig for stuff, though. WHY PHILLIPS LET LEE SEE VECIANA From what i have just read, I think veciana had no idea why he was supposed to see Lee, but I am pretty sure i know why Lee was supposed to see Veciana. I think the reason for Lee's having been seen with Phillips by Veciana was probably to make Lee feel secure about going to Mexico City, and that was Lee's take, as well. I'm wondering what Veciana might remember about Lee. Is he still alive? Lee said they met in a very nice place, everything was top quality, including meals (he did not eat with either man, though). He only saw Veciana, if this was Veciana, very briefly, he described the man to me as a "Latin." or "Latino" or maybe "Mexican," or "Cuban," i no longer recall the extact term. He had only Phillips' word (if it was Phillips) to go on. Imagine how terrifying for us. Lee went ahead to Mexico City because we still hoped to get the materials in against Castro, despite rumors that it might be too late, which we had been hearing for probably a month. We knew we had pushed up beyond the October 25 cut-off date for Castro to publically show symptoms of illness from injections, to up to a week later, and that this might not be acceptable. IF THE MATERIALS REACHED CUBA, THE BLOOD TEST WOULD SERVE AS PROOF THAT THE SERUM "TOOK" If the materials had actually made it in, there were several medical personnel who would have been involved and who would have finished off Fidel. The bloodwork would show results in mere days, there would be enough time to get the bloodwork profile back to us to check, THEY didn't know what to look for as WE did, so it was a very safe method of proving what had happened, it could not be faked. And then we'd have a bargaining chip to put off the execution of JFK, because Castro could die within a month of showing a bad blood profile. Even if they couldn't do it the first time they tried, the materials we sent were live and could be grown and tried a few more times before losing their potency. That's why Lee was willing to risk his life to try to get into Cuba when the contact(s) fell through. Kennedy's life could be saved. A MOBSTER WAS TESTIFYING AT THIS TIME, AND EVERYONE WAS WORRIED ABOUT HIS EXPOSING THE MAFIA-CIA COALITION Originally, I think there was belief that a national outcry to invade Cuba would develop if Kennedy's demise was blamed on Castro. But unfortunately for Lee, about this same time a mobster (can't remember his name) was testifying about what he called La Cosa Nostra, scaring everybody that he would reveal the CIA/Mob plots to get Castro, and then an invasion of Cuba would be hamstrung: Castro would have seemed to merely be defending himself if he had been killed at this time, we would look morally bankrupt, and the new government would perhaps not include US govt.puppets as originally intended. I think this caused the Lone Nut thing to look much more attractive, instead of Castro-did-it, even though I believe the CIA fought gung-ho until the very end to get a chance to get revenge for the Bay of Pigs. Then were forced to let Cuba go and blame it all on Lee. Remember, this was hard for them: the Bay of Pigs had happened just a couple of years earlier, it was still fresh in their heads. So I think we have mixed signals at the end going on because of this. KILL-KENNEDY vs GET-CASTRO . Getting rid of Kennedy returned power to the desired hands, developed VietNam as an economically lucrative objective, and secured Louisiana for corrupt purposes in place of Cuba. Lee was there to be made the target of spite, hatred, and a bullet to the abdomen. Everybody was happy --except that our people lost all faith in their government, developed a cynicism that has eaten away at their patriotism and character, and we have been endowed with a sense of helplessness about how to implement a government run by the people, of the people, for the people. WE WERE USED It now seems to me they used us all and perhaps never intended that these materials reach Cuba. This is something I only recently began to realize was probably the intention from the beginning, though we never thought that originally, since so much money and effort went into our work that summer, and this project to kill Castro had been underway since early in 1962. We were rather isolated in what we knew, atop all of that. That meant the "volunteers" at Jackson also died for nothing. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SERUM? However, these materials certainly didn't vanish, and I suspect they were also involved in Jack Ruby's death, perhaps Clay Shaw's, and others.' I would like to see a list of people involved in this case who died of lung cancer, especially if they did not smoke, such as Jack Ruby. And how many heart attacks (sodium morphate). Haslam errs in his book when he thinks David Ferrie could, with impunity, steal the infected mice, etc. without Ochsner being aware. What? When he describes Ochsner on the scene, with men carrying machine guns, when the particle accelerator apparently breaks down? Does he think Ochsner would allow Mary Sherman to be murdered and not care where the materials she was working with went? Yet Haslam locates the materials finally in Dave's possession, unaccountably, unless, of course, Ochsner knew all about it. To me, this means Ochsner was involved, very possibly, in Jack Ruby's death. As Dave Reitzes said, free treatment in Ochsner Clinic for CIA operatives.....==== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Without a doubt, Lee told me that he conversed with Gary Powers. I was so mesmerized with this information that I didn't think to ask the circumstances. However, I am certain that he would have added details if (1) it had been any kind of lengthy conversation (2) if he had seen him -- neither seemed to be the case. Today I think he talked to him via phone. It seems possible that Powers was told it was an American and didn't even know it was Lee. Lee, not being one to add extra details, believe me, never told me the circumstances, and had I interrupted his discourse, he may have clammed up and changed the subject. As it was, it was a burst of information I could see he regretted telling me. He said DeMohrenschildt told him he had a big mouth and it could get us all killed someday. Now, this was a few days later, on a different subject (having to do with Lee's specialized radar training, something nobody seems to know anything about, either ---his radar training resumed when he returned to the United States, in that he was updated on radar being used in Cuba from time to time. For some reason, radar installations were of great tactical interest at the time. Lee did say on several occasions that he had already told me too much. He said that a number of times, though. In the end, I was probably the only person left in the world in whom he could confide, it was very bad then.====j====