Crowdsourcing JFK: DiEugenio on the mysterious David Ferrie

Rick Bauer’s recollections of David Ferrie may prompt readers to ask, how does Ferrie figure in the JFK story? Jim DiEugenio explains in this video from Len Osanic’s “50 Reasons for 50 Years.”

“Many witnesses saw Oswald with Bannister or Ferrie in the summer of 1963,” DiEugenio says.

If you know who these witnesses were, send info, documents, and/or links to JFK Facts.

13 comments

  1. Photon says:

    As usual, wildly inaccurate ramblings from a researcher who gets it wrong from the get go.
    Clay Shaw was never proven to be Clay Bertrand.
    Clay Bertrand was never proven to have even existed.
    Clay Shaw was NOT a CIA agent, only an overseas businessman who had been contacted by CIA elements for information about his trips abroad- as thousands of American businessmen were in the 1950s, particularly veterans who had been military officers with excellent service records.
    Was Sarnoff behind Johnny Carson taking apart Garrison on the “Tonight Show” when Garrison couldn’t give a straight answer to virtually any question Carson asked? Garrison fans ought to listen to that interview- Carson knew a con when he saw one; it reminds me of his takedown of Uri Geller.
    DiEugenio’s usual hyperbole about ” Many witnesses saw Oswald with Bannister and Ferrie in the summer of 1963″ is totally unsubstantiated by anybody who actually knew Oswald. Jim, forget about ” many witnesses”- how about just one CREDIBLE witness who wasn’t a mental patient,shady character or serial liar.
    Clay Shaw was an honorable man ruined by an anti- homosexual bigot whose original hypothesis was that JFK’s murder was a gay thrill crime, ” like Leopold and Lobe”. Mr. DiEugenio seems to forget that- and the wholesale violation of Mr. Shaw’s civil rights simply because Garrison thought he was an easy target in the atmosphere of 1960s.

    • Jonathan says:

      Photon,

      I differ with you as to Garrison but agree the Garrison trial was mostly a sideshow. Mostly.

      The biggie for me is that Dr. Finck admitted under oath at the Shaw trial the autopsy doctors were ordered by high-ranking officers (Galloway, etc.) not to probe JFK wounds.

      The problem with the Garrison trial is that it didn’t die a natural death. Ronald Reagan, Governor of California, refused extradition of Jim Braden. The governor of Ohio refused extradition of Gordon Novel.

      Go back to that time, Photon. I was then a Republican fan. Today I understand the power of state governors.

      • John McAdams says:
        Your comment is awaiting moderation.

        Dr. Finck admitted under oath at the Shaw trial the autopsy doctors were ordered by high-ranking officers

        And Finck said that “the family” did not want certain things done.

        Read Manchester. The Kennedy entourage on the 17th floor were regularly calling down to the autopsy theater to ask when it would be over.

        Remember, they were wanting JFK fixed up for an open casket viewing.

        That put pressure on the folks in the autopsy theater, and that pressure was doubtless conveyed by some military officer. But it originated on the 17th floor.

      • Photon says:

        Except they DIDN’T order him not to probe the wounds- because he did. That is right in his testimony. They did not remove the ” organs of the neck ” under the direction of RADM Burkley, who was essentially an agent of the Kennedy family and concerned about the restoration necessary for what everybody assumed at the time to be an open casket wake.
        Finck also said that he didn’t need to “remove the organs of the neck” to establish the path of the bullet. He also stated that the probe could not be advanced because of muscle and tissue contraction along the path of the wound, a totally expected occurrence . Advancing a probe under pressure would merely create a false wound path.
        I wonder how many neck bullet wounds in those days were actually dissected out with “removal of the organs of the neck” in the manner that laymen assume was a standard autopsy procedure- a misconception analogous to the facial paraffin test claims by researchers who forget that the Dallas police never did a facial paraffin test before the one on LHO.
        An extensive neck dissection perhaps would have helped clear up doubts among the lay population, but Finck, a renowned pathologist, had no doubts about the bullet wound path and location. Just as a radiologist sees things on a film that even other M.D.s can’t see, a pathologist can recognize anatomic features completely misunderstood by those without formal training in the specialty.
        Ever seen an autopsy?

        • George Simmons says:

          From Dr Finck’s testimony at the Clay Shaw trial :

          Q : I will ask you the question one more time. Why did you not dissect the track of the bullet wound that you have described today and you saw at the time of the autopsy at the time you examined the body? Why? I ask you to answer that question.

          A : As I recall I was told not to but I don’t remember by whom.

          Q : You were told not to but you don’t remember by whom?

          A : Right

          Also from Dr Finck’s testimony :

          A : Wait. I was called as a consultant to study these wounds. That doesn’t mean I am running the show.

          Q : Was Dr Humes running the show?

          A : Well, I heard Dr Humes stating that, he said, “Who is in charge here?” and I heard an Army-General, I don’t remember his name stating, “I am”. You must understand that in those circumstances, there were law enforcement officers, military people with various ranks, and you have to co-ordinate the operation according to directions.

          Q : But you were one of the three qualified pathologists standing at the autopsy table, were you not, Doctor?

          A : Yes, I am.

          Q : Was this Army General a qualified pathologist?

          A : No

          Q : Was he a Doctor?

          A : No, not to my knowledge.

          Q : Can you give me his name Colonel?

          A : No, I cant. I don’t remember.

          Also worth noting that when asked the question as to why he did not dissect the track of the bullet wound Dr Finck does not answer the question. Eventually, he has to be directed by the court to answer.

          • John McAdams says:

            You failed to include the part where Finck said that “the family” didn’t want certain things done.

            Then there is the Bloomberg Memo, in which Finck said:

            THE ORGANS OF THE NECK WERE NOT REMOVED: THE PRESIDENT’S FAMILY INSISTED TO HAVE ONLY THE HEAD EXAMINED Later, the permission was extended to the CHEST.

            http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/weberman/finck1.htm

          • George Simmons says:

            When Dr Finck was asked, in a court of Law, why he did not dissect the track of the wound his answer was that he was told not to, but he did not remember by whom.

            That is a fact.

          • Photon says:

            Just the same kind of misinformation about moving the body from Dallas- an action taken by JFK’s closest associates to get his widow out of Dallas.

          • John McAdams says:

            But a mention of “the family” is in the Shaw trial testimony.

            Since you have it handy, how about posting it?

    • John Kirsch says:

      It’s “Leopold and LOEB.”

  2. DRB says:

    Regarding David Ferrie, I’m sending a list of sources that refer to Oswald’s contacts with David Ferrie. I used the following abbreviations to identify my sources:

    FJ = Mellan’s Farewell to Justice
    LJDB = Davy’s Let Justice Be Done
    Summers = Anthony Summer’s Conspiracy
    CD = WC documents
    nnn-nnnnn-nnnnn are National Archive documents
    HSCA reference are to House Select Com. on Assassination docs
    H&L = Armstrong’s Harvey and Lee
    Knew Too Much = Russell’s Man Who Knew Too Much
    Debates = Kurtz’ JFK Assassination Debates

    References to Oswald and Ferrie are as follows.

    Ferrie admits he and Clay Shaw were CIA and saw LHO often at Banister’s office. Louis Ivon states Ferrie was LHO’s “baby-sitter” – FJ 104-05 – Interviews with Louis Ivon; LJBD 66 – Davy’s interviews with Ivon.

    Jerry Paradise positive LHO and Ferrie were in the CAP together– FJ 41 – Author’s interview with Mike Ewing (?).

    LHO and Ferrie in the CAP, several witnesses state this- Summers 302,citing HSCA

    Delphine Roberts sees LHO with Ferrie; LHO and Ferrie at Clinton. – Summers 304-06

    Ferrie has Oswald’s library card, allegedly destroyed by the FBI – FJ 40 – CD 75 199/201; report of DeBrueys WC 179-40005-10179 08; Memo to Garrison; Lena Garner’s testimony HSCA 180-10104-10364 – Bugliosi questions Garner’s credibility.

    Raymond Broshears states Ferrie tells him of Ferrie’s role in the JFK assassination and LHO not the shooter – FJ 122,123 – interview of Raymond Broshears by Louis Ivon, Steve Jaffe, James Alcock and Memo to Garrison re Broshears. (Broshears low credibility, mental problems, etc.)

    Ferrie’s telephone calls to Jean West, associate of Jack Ruby. LJBD 46-47 (based on phone bills) NOTE – was another person’s phone number.

    Jack Martin links Oswald, Ferrie and Banister – FJ 37 –

    Gaudet sees LHO and Banister talking; also says Ferrie and Sergio Arcacha Smith Knew Oswald. H&L at 596.

    Dan Campbell reports seeing Oswald at Banister’s office – FJ 320 – interview with Dan Campbell, Jan. 8, 2002

    Michael Kurtz sees Banister and LHO together – FJ 70, 71

    Sergio Archaca Smith states privately that he was controlled by the CIA; CIA records reveal Bannister as a FBI contact for Smith – Summers, 297 – see HSCA X.126 – HSCA materials say Banister worked with anti-Castro Cubans and Ferrie and Sergio Archaca Smith; helped draw up charter for Cuban Revolutionary Council. HSCA report CIA file says CIA considered using Banister to collect foreign intelligence, but decided against it.

    Gaudet sees LHO and Banister talking; also says Ferrie and Sergio Arcacha Smith Knew Oswald. H&L at 596.

    FBI memo states that source Carl John Stanley of Louisville, Kentucky knew John Martin and David Ferrie, and Martin told him in 1966 that he and Ferrie were buddies with LHO. But Stanley said Martin lived in Houston in 1963 and 1964. FBI says it previously investigated John Martin of New Orleans, could not substantiate link. 124-10040-10310; 62-109060-4720.

    FBI documents show Shaw knew Ferrie. – LJBD 194-95 – FBI memo 3/21/67, doc. # 62-109060-4874 (180-10020-10307, 124-10048-10450, 124-10048-10449; FBI memo from NO office to Director, doc. # 62-109060-;

    Shaw Co-signs loan for Ferrie – FJ 40 – interviews with Roger Johnston, apparently no documentation.

    Woodrow Hardy, who worked for Shaw, claims to have seen LHO, Shaw and Ferrie – FJ at 95.

    Ferrie’s telephone calls to Jean West, associate of Jack Ruby. LJBD 46-47 (based on phone bills)

    LHO, Ferrie?, and David Atlee Phillips (CIA) appear together in a film of Cuban exile training camp. – FJ 48 – interview with Robert K. Tannenbaum. – This film later inexplicably disappears. – Or Bannister? LJBD 30 – Interview with Robert Tannenbaum, Probe

    Raymond Broshears knows Ferrie and LHO were connected to the CIA – FJ 82 But Broshears uncertain whether they worked for CIA, anti-Castro Cubans or even knew who they worked for. Knew Too Much at 5xx.

    Geologist Hamilton Johnson reports seeing Banister, Ferrie, anti-Castro Cubans with CIA and FBI agents. On Occasion LHO was present. H. Leake confirms. – Debates 185 – interviews H. Johnson, H. Leake.

    CIA agent Robert Morrow tells Russell that he worked with David Ferrie in Europe. Morrow received papers from a contact “Harvey” in Minsk; gave papers to his case officer Tracy Barnes. – TooMuch 217-218 – interview with Morrow.

    • John McAdams says:
      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      I’m not sure if you think this is strong evidence, since you seem to understand the credibility problems with a lot of the sources you cite.

      But let me add a few things about credibility problems.

      CIA agent Robert Morrow

      http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/morrow.htm

      appear together in a film of Cuban exile training camp. – FJ 48 – interview with Robert K. Tannenbaum. – This film later inexplicably disappears.

      Or more likely never existed. Interesting how a lack of evidence can be spun to be sinister.

      Ferrie’s telephone calls to Jean West, associate of Jack Ruby.

      http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid.htm

      180-10020-10307, 124-10048-10450, 124-10048-10449

      None of these documents are on Mary Ferrell, so we have only Davey’s word on this. I think we need to see the documents.

      Michael Kurtz sees Banister and LHO together

      In the first edition of his book, and in an early journal article, Kurtz did not claim that he was the person who saw them. He merely cited an “anonymous source.”

      Dan Campbell reports seeing Oswald at Banister’s office

      The version of this story in Summers’ book simply has Campbell seeing “a Marine” come in and use the phone (IIRC). This was on the day of the affray on Canal Street, and at the time Oswald in in jail.

      Ferrie has Oswald’s library card, allegedly destroyed by the FBI

      Comes from Jack Martin. Oswald never had Ferrie’s library card.

      http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/lib-card.txt

      “Allegedly destroyed” in another “the dog ate my evidence” claim.

      Interviews with Louis Ivon; LJBD 66 – Davy’s interviews with Ivon.

      And when did Ivon finally start saying this?

      And now we come to the odd one:

      LHO and Ferrie in the CAP, several witnesses state this

      Here, finally, is something that is true. However, among several witnesses the HSCA had, none remembered any relationship between Ferrie and Oswald, and Oswald only attended a few meetings.

    • Brian H says:

      Excellent work DRB this is the type of overwhelming evidence needed on here. I will say it’s only a matter of time before the debunkers just start saying so they knew each other worked together were seen together in Dealey plaza that still doesn’t mean they’re guilty of anything! Or better yet ya 20 witnesses saw him with a gun doesn’t mean he shot it.
      My point is it’s hard work like yours that will make a difference when the debunkers have to debunk thousands of pieces of solid evidence what does that say? Keep up the good work!!!!!!

      • Photon says:

        Yes, a good rundown on the sources- not the veracity of those sources.
        For instance, Raymond Broshears -claimed to have been Ruby’s roommate, yet couldn’t describe the apartment accurately, didn’t know the neighborhood where it was located and couldn’t even prove that he had ever been to Dallas. A complete fraud.
        Or ” Ferrie’s telephone calls to Jean West … Based on phone bills “- yet the source got the WRONG telephone number!
        The post merely reflects what I stated- there is no real evidence for any of the claims of people trying to link Oswald to Ferrie in 1963.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

*

In seeking to expand the range of informed debate about the events of 1963 and its aftermath, JFKFacts.org welcomes comments that are factual, engaging, and civil. more