Our next witness is Captain Jack Revill of the Dallas Police Department. He has been a member of the DPD since 1951 and currently is in charge of the Internal Affairs Division of the department. In 1963, Captain Revill was a lieutenant assigned to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau.
Later, he was a member of the special investigative unit charged with determining how Jack Ruby in fact entered the police headquarters basement on November 24, 1963.
It would be appropriate at this time, Mr. Chairman, to call on Captain Revill.
Chairman STOKES. At this time, before calling the witness, the committee will take a 10-minute recess. [A short recess was taken.]
Chairman STOKES. The committee will come to order.
The committee calls Captain Revill. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this committee is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain REVILL. I do.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
The Chair recognizes counsel for the committee, Mr. Donald Purdy.
Mr. PURDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What is your full name and where do you live?


Captain REVILL. My name is Jack Revill. I live in Dallas, Tex., at 5204 Elk Ridge Drive. Mr. PURDY. What is your present occupation and rank?
Captain REVILL. I am employed by the Dallas Police Department. I am a captain of police, currently commanding the Internal Affairs Division.
Mr. PURDY. What was your occupation, rank, and duties in the 1950's and early 1960's in Dallas?
Captain REVILL. I was a lieutenant of police, assigned to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. PURDY. What was the responsibility of the Criminal Intelligence Section in the 1950's and early 1960's?
Captain REVILL. Our primary function was the gathering of information on individuals and organizations involved in criminal activities and extremist group individuals, and organizations.
Mr. PURDY. Was the vice squad part of this unit?
Captain REVILL. The vice squad was a part, an integral part of the Special Services Bureau which consisted of vice, narcotics, and intelligence, each unit commanded by a lieutenant of police.
Mr. PURDY. To what extent did members of the intelligence unit have access to information concerning criminal activity generally in Dallas in the 1950's and early 1960's?
Captain REVILL. We had complete access to recorded information of criminal elements.
Mr. PURDY. When did you join the intelligence division?
Captain REVILL. In February of 1958, I believe.
Mr. PURDY. What division did you work in prior to that time?
Captain REVILL. Prior to that I was a lieutenant commanding the narcotics unit.
Mr. PURDY. In your work with the intelligence division, did you gain access to information concerning all types of criminal activity or just specific types?
Captain REVILL. All types of criminal activity.
Mr. PURDY. Do you have any knowledge of specific criminal activities by Jack Ruby?
Captain REVILL. Nothing specific. I knew Jack Ruby by reputation.
Mr. PURDY. Was prostitution common in the clubs in Dallas?
Captain REVILL. It was not common. The Dallas Police Department has always had an aggressive enforcement policy toward protitution; but prostitution was available in certain clubs.
Mr. PURDY. Did prostitution occur in any clubs run by Jack Ruby, to your knowledge?
Captain REVILL. Not to my personal knowledge.
Mr. PURDY. Was there any narcotics activity common in Dallas, in general, and the clubs in particular, in the fifties and early sixties?
Captain REVILL. Narcotics were available in the clubs, nothing specific as far as any organized groups or efforts on the part of the people to sell or dispense drugs in the clubs.
Mr. PURDY. Did you have any information concerning the presence of narcotics activity in any clubs run by Jack Ruby?
Captain REVILL. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. PURDY. Was gambling common in Dallas, in general, and in nightclubs, in particular?
Captain REVILL. Not general. Some bookmaking activities were conducted in clubs but again this was not an open thing.
Mr. PURDY. To your knowledge, did gambling go on in any clubs run by Jack Ruby?
Captain REVILL. I have no personal knowledge of Jack Ruby being involved in gambling or in his clubs.
Mr. PURDY. Were organized criminal elements present in Dallas in the 1950's and early 1960's?
Captain REVILL. I am sure they were.
Mr. PURDY. To your knowledge, was Jack Ruby associated with such activity, generally, and in Dallas, in particular?
Captain REVILL. Are you referring to organized crime, Jack Ruby's involvement?
Mr. PURDY. Yes.
Captain REVILL. I have no information that Jack Ruby was involved in organized crime in Dallas.
Mr. PURDY. Did you have any knowledge of Jack Ruby's associations with any gamblers or anyone else involved with illegal activity?
Captain REVILL. Jack Ruby was the type of person who would have been acquainted with persons involved in gambling activities and other criminal activities, but as far as Jack Ruby being actively engaged or a member of any groups, no, nothing to indicate this.
Mr. PURDY. Did you have knowledge of any particular close associations between Jack Ruby and anyone associated with criminal activity?
Captain REVILL. No information that would indicate that he was actively engaged. I am sure that he was acquainted with certain individuals who would have been involved in these type activities due to the nature of his nightclub business.
Mr. PURDY. Did you know Lewis McWillie?
Captain REVILL. I know Lewis McWillie by name.
Mr. PURDY. What was his reputation in Dallas?
Captain REVILL. Professional gambler, a bookmaker.
Mr. PURDY. Were you aware of his relationship with Jack Ruby?
Captain REVILL. Not at that time.
Mr. PURDY. When did you learn of that relationship?
Captain REVILL. Since this particular committee has been in session.
Mr. PURDY. You didn't learn of it pursuant to the investigation by the Dallas Police Department into the assassination?
Captain REVILL. NO, sir.
Mr. PURDY. Did you know Jack Ruby personally?
Captain REVILL. Yes, sir, I had known Jack Ruby since 1953.
Mr. PURDY. What was the nature of your relationship with Jack Ruby?
Captain REVILL. No relationship whatsoever other than a professional relationship of a police officer to an individual such as Jack Ruby.
Mr. PURDY. Did you ever visit any of his clubs?
Captain REVILL. I was in one club in 1953, the old Silver Spur Club in South Dallas. That was the only occasion I was ever in one of his clubs.
Mr. PURDY. What was your personal impression of Jack Ruby?
Captain REVILL. Jack Ruby was a balloon. He liked the limelight. He was highly volatile. He liked to be recognized with people, and I would say this to this committee: if Jack Ruby was a member of organized crime, then the personnel director of organized crime should be replaced.
Mr. PURDY. Why do you say that?
Captain REVILL. Knowing Jack Ruby to be a balloon.
Mr. PURDY. Was your impression of Jack Ruby shared by other members of the Dallas Police Department?
Captain REVILL. It was shared by members of the intelligence unit.
Mr. PURDY. What was the source of your impression that Jack Ruby was a hothead?
Captain REVILL. Reputation.
Mr. PURDY. Were there any specific instances that you were told about that led you to believe that the reputation was accurate?
Captain REVILL. Where he had become involved in altercations at his clubs, where he had physically ejected people. Jack Ruby was hot tempered and was quick to fight or become involved in altercations.
Mr. PURDY. What was Jack Ruby's reputation among the business community in Dallas?
Captain REVILL. I don't know that he had a reputation among the business community per se. He was probably known among the club owners who operated similar operations but as far as being known among the business community, I dare say that he was not known.
Mr. PURDY. Would you say the Jack Ruby had an unusually close relationship with members of the Dallas Police Department?
Captain REVILL. Listening to testimony here this morning, it would indicate that Jack Ruby was known by all of the police officers. I take exception to that in that I have been there almost 28 years and my particular unit was housed in the Special Services Bureau section. Jack Ruby would have had to come to that office to renew licenses such as a cabaret license, beer license, et cetera, and I dare say that I would see him no more than maybe twice a year and I don't recall seeing Jack Ruby in the Police and Courts Building that often.
Mr. PURDY. Did Jack Ruby receive any benefits or favors from members of the police department in their treatment of him?
Captain REVILL. I sincerely hope not.
Mr. PURDY. Was there any problem with members of the Dallas Police Department performing or receiving favors from club owners?
Captain REVILL. No, none that I know of.
Mr. PURDY. Was there any problem with Jack Ruby in this respect?
Captain REVILL. No, sir, I have no knowledge of Jack Ruby bestowing gifts and favors upon police officers.
Mr. PURDY. Was Jack Ruby ever used as an informant by the Dallas Police Department?
Captain REVILL. He was not used as an informant by the intelligence unit. Whether or not Jack Ruby was used as a source of information, and there is a difference, this I don't know.
Mr. PURDY. To what extent is it possible that Jack Ruby was the
source of information to units other than yours?
Captain REVILL. Jack Ruby could have provided information to the members of the vice section who called upon his club, who conducted surveillances or visits into his clubs, but I have no knowledge, personal knowledge of this occurring.
Mr. PURDY. Have any officers told you that this exchange of information took place?
Captain REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. PURDY. Did the FBI provide the Dallas Police Department with the identities of or information concerning the FBI informants in the 1950's and early 1960's?
Captain REVILL. No, sir, they did not.
Mr. PURDY. Were you aware that the FBI had contact with Jack Ruby in 1959 to try to develop an informant relationship with him?
Captain REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. PURDY. Would you expect that you would known that information?
Captain REVILL. No, sir. They would have not known my informants and I would not have known theirs.
Mr. PURDY. Approximately how many officers would you say knew Jack Ruby? You say they all didn't. Approximately how many did know him?
Captain REVILL. In 1963, we had approximately 1,200 officers with the Dallas Police Department. I would say that those officers who knew Jack Ruby were nonuniform personnel, with the exception of the officers assigned to the various beats where his clubs were geographically located. Consequently, we are talking about members of the vice section, narcotics section, the intelligence section, approximately 60 men in that bureau. Members of the burglary and theft unit would probably have known Jack Ruby. Some members of homicide and robbery may have known him. So we are probably speaking in the area of 100 to 150 people, officers, who would have known Jack Ruby, and this includes uniform officers also.
Mr. PURDY. As I am sure you know, Jack Ruby was present in the police headquarters on a number of occasions during the weekend following the assassination of President Kennedy. To your knowledge, was his presence ever challenged by any member of the Dallas Police Department?
Captain REVILL. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. PURDY. Why do you think this was the case? Do you think it was because he was known to so many officers?
Captain REVILL. I have no way of knowing why he was not challenged except that the police and courts building was not secured during the day of the assassination of Mr. Kennedy. The following day, which was Saturday, November 23, it was not secured, and on the date of Ruby's assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald, the only area that I have knowledge of that was supposed to be secured was the basement area where the transfer of Mr. Oswald was to take place.
Mr. PURDY. Was anyone punished for the lax security present in the police department headquarters during that weekend?
Captain REVILL. Not to my knowledge. One man who currently serves as my administrative sergeant feels that he was maligned due to his activities. This is Sgt. Roy Gene Vaughn, who at that time was a uniform patrolman who was assigned to the ramp on Main Street leading into the basement of the city hall, and Sergeant Vaughn has told me that he feels that he was punished in that his efficiency, his personal evaluation, numerical score, was cut a couple of points, and that is the only thing I have ever heard.
Mr. PURDY. So other than the issue of Jack Ruby's access to the police basement on this Sunday morning, no one else was punished for the lax security that was in effect in police headquarters during that whole weekend?
Captain REVILL. I have no knowledge of anyone being punished.
Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you, counsel.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Sawyer, for such time as he may consume.
Mr. SAWYER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I am really substituting for Mr. Dodd, who has to be over testifying before the Rules Committee at this moment, so I have a list of questions he was going to ask and I will do my best to handle them.
One thing I am particularly interested in, or Mr. Dodd is, is the access or how Ruby came to get into the basement of the police station at the time of the assassination. Do I understand correctly that the three officers in a car right at the ramp did not see him come down the ramp?
Captain REVILL. If I recall correctly, I believe there has been previous testimony from those particular officers. Sir, if I might explain something here or elaborate. As counsel said, I was assigned, by Chief Curry to an investigative team to determine how Ruby gained access to the basement of the city hall, to determine if there was any complicity on the part of any officers as to their involvement, and if I may elaborate on the findings or this particular group, I would be happy to do so at this time.
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I would like to have that.
Captain REVILL. I believe the committee has a chart. This particular chart represents a facsimile of the basement of the police and courts building and at the top left you will see what appears to be a ramp.
Mr. FITHIAN. Would it be possible to have him----
Captain REVILL. This will be much better.
Mr. FITHIAN. There is a microphone over there.
Chairman STOKES. Also, may we have counsel identify the exhibit?
Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask at this time that this photographic blowup of the Warren Commission diagram of the police basement be entered into the record at this time as JFK exhibit F-568.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record at this point. [The above-referred-to JFK exhibit F-568 follows:]


Mr. PURDY. It would be appropriate also at this time to enter into the record as JFK exhibit F-567 the report of the special unit on which Captain Revill served.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record at this point. [The above-referred-to JFK exhibit F-567 follows:]


Mr. SAWYER. Proceed.
Captain REVILL. This particular committee was comprised of In* spector Herbert Sawyer, Captain Westbrook, Capt. O.A. Jones, myself, a Lt. Paul McCaghren, Lt. Frank Cornwall, Lt. Cecil Wallace, and initially a detective, one of my subordinates in the intelligence unit, H.M. Hart, and as I said, it was our function to investigate the shooting of Mr. Oswald by Mr. Ruby.
One phase of the particular investigation indicated that at 11:16 a.m. on the date of the shooting of Oswald, Ruby had sent a wire to Fort Worth--I1:16 a.m. It is my understanding that the shooting of Mr. Oswald by Ruby was 11:20 a.m., some 4 minutes later. The Western Union Building is to the east of the police and courts building. The distance from the counter or table where he sent this wire to the young lady in Fort Worth was approximately 454 feet from that counter to the location where he shot Mr. Oswald.
Using a tape measure and a stop watch, we determined that it involved approximately 1 minute and 35 seconds to cover the distance from the Western Union to the location of the shooting. So it was pretty close timing there for Ruby to have gained entrance to the basement of city hall.
If he sent the teletype or telegram or wire at 11:16 a.m. and the shooting occurred at 11:20 a.m. some 4 minutes elapsed, and we can account for approximately 1 minute and one half, 1 minute and 30 seconds from the time he left Western Union.
Now, I will bring something up at this time. I personally conducted that investigation, Lieutenant McCaghren and I. We are basing the times on the statement of the Western Union employee, who says that Ruby sent this wire at 11:16, and this is verified by a date time stamp.
In talking to this individual, McCaghren and I questioned him as to whether or not he actually date time stamped it automatically or immediately. He said, yes; he did because that was procedure. But that doubt was always in my mind. It is possible there was some time lapse in that maybe he didn't do this at the time because this was a part of the procedure, yes, he said he did it. So who knows?
But using the physical evidence that we found, using the date time stamp of 11:16, and Mr. Oswald being shot at 11:20, you have a period of 4 minutes.
Mr. SAWYER. Can you show us where the automobile containing the three officers was located?
Captain REVILL. Yes, this automobile had already cleared the ramp. It went the wrong way. This is Main Street here, and the normal course of travel, it is one-way ramp into the basement of the city hall off of Main Street, and you exit one way on to Commerce Street.
Officer Roy Vaughn was assigned at the ramp to prevent anyone entering the ramp.
Now, something else that came to my attention in June, and it took me by surprise. Roy Vaughn, I have complete confidence in his integrity, and credibility. He was assigned to that ramp. As part of the investigation, I submitted Roy Vaughn to a polygraph examination. He passed the polygraph examination. He did not knowingly permit Jack Ruby entrance into the basement of the city hall. This is verified by polygraph.
In June of this year, one of the staff investigators was in Dallas and Roy Vaughn, who is Sergeant Vaughn, who I mentioned, is now my administrative sergeant, told me that he had talked to a Sgt. Don Flusche, who is still with the Dallas Police Department. Don Flusche was a sergeant assigned to the Northeast at the time of the assassination. Sergeant Vaughn reported to me that Don Flusche on that Sunday morning, had parked across the street from the police and courts building, stood outside his car with the door open monitoring the radio, just watching.
He further told me that Flusche says that he knew Jack Ruby, knew him personally, that Jack Ruby did not come down Main Street and enter the ramp of the city hall. That took me by surprise.
Mr. Moriarty, one of the staff investigators, was there, I called Sergeant Flusche to my office and he relayed that same information to both of us. So if that be true, then maybe Mr. Ruby did not enter the basement that way. It tends to dispute the findings of the investigative team I was assigned to. I don't know. That is the truth.
Mr. SAWYER. That would be consistent with the testimony of the three officers that drove up that ramp, too.
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it would.
Mr. SAWYER. They had not seen him, either?
Mr. REVILL. There are also two other alternatives, and it is a possibility. After determining that information from Sergeant Flusche, Mr. Moriarity and I personally, walked to the basement of city hall and I found some more steps. I have been there in that building off and on almost 28 years, and I didn't know the steps were there; never paid any attention to them. There is another set of steps here that lead into the basement of city hall.
Mr. SAWYER. From where?
Mr. REVILL. From the first floor of the municipal building. The municipal building, at that time, was the city hall. The city hall, or municipal building and the police and courts building are two separate buildings, although they are connected.
Mr. SAWYER. Is there a door, there, too?
Mr. REVILL. There is a door leading out of the basement into some steps. You can go to the first floor of the municipal building.
Mr. SAWYER. And the first floor of the municipal building, I presume, was not secured at all?
Mr. REVILL. On Sundays, or weekends, it is normally locked. Now, whether or not it was secured on that day, sir; I do not know. But the Western Union Building is here. Midway between Harwood Street and Central Expressway South, the Western Union Building sits on the corner of Main and Central Expressway South. The police and courts building sits up at the corner of Harwood and Main. There is an alleyway that runs parallel to Harwood.
Midway between Commerce and Main Street, there is an entrance to the Municipal Building. Today, that door has a dead bolt lock. Now, what it had in 1963, I don't know. It could have had a panic lock; who knows. I don't know.
Another alternative is rather than coming down Main Street at all, Ruby could have come Central Expressway to an alleyway that runs midway between Commerce and Main Street and walked right into the area and it would not affect the timing at all. So, it still falls within the time frame of 4 minutes.
Mr. SAWYER. Was that door and steps from the municipal building secured or guarded in any way?
Mr. REVILL. At one time, I am told by members of the staff, there had been a police reserve officer here, but prior to Mr. Oswald being brought out, this officer had been reassigned. I am just quoting one of your staff members. I was not present at the location that day.
Mr. SAWYER. Was there any other way he could have had access to the basement other than the two you have shown us?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he could have come through the police and courts building into the main hallway, but it is my understanding that this was secured by uniformed officers and plain clothes personnel.
Mr. SAWYER. Did you ever ask Jack Ruby following this how he got into the basement?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I did. On December 1, Lieutenant Cornwall and I went to the Dallas County jail and interviewed Jack Ruby.
Jack refused to discuss with us his entrance or access into the basement. He told us this would be a part of his defense tactics. Again, on December 3, I interviewed Jack Ruby and he repeated the same thing. He refused to discuss how he gained entry into the basement.
Mr. SAWYER. Do you have any hypothesis or any reason that you could conceive why he wouldn't discuss this with you?
Mr. REVILL. None other than his statement to me that this was to be used as part of his defense.
Mr. SAWYER. Might it be that he was protecting the identity of some people that might have let him in?
Mr. REVILL. That entered my mind at the time, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. And he never said, he never said at any point that he did go down the ramp---
Mr. REVILL. Not to me; no, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. To your knowledge, did he tell anyone else that?
Mr. REVILL. I think I read some accounts in the newspapers that he had reported and he went down the ramp. But he never made this statement to me, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. Where some of these officers that went up the ramp in the car given polygraph tests?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir---
Mr. SAWYER. Or otherwise checked out?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir. The three officers who went up the ramp were not given polygraphs. An additional officer was polygraphed. An Investigator Harrison who was standing in this area here, and the reason for the examination of Mr. Harrison was, in reviewing the films of the actual shooting of Oswald, it appeared as though Harrison looked over his left shoulder and Mr. Ruby was standing just to his left. So, with that in mind, we decided that he had to have seen him. We examined Harrison on the polygraph and he passed the polygraph.
This is possible, too, because major network stations had set up, I believe the correct terminology is klieg lights, bright TV lights here in this area. We re-enacted the scene and those particular lights completely blinded anyone who looked in their direction.
Mr. Harrison did pass the polygraph examination that he did not see Jack Ruby to his immediate left just prior to the shooting of Mr. Oswald.
Mr. SAWYER. Were any of the other officers given polygraphs?
Mr. REVILL. Those were the only two that I personally was involved in polygraphing, sir. In answer to your question, I don't know of any other officers.
Mr. SAWYER. Did any of them, who were given polygraphs, fail the polygraphs?
Mr. REVILL. There was one other officer who took a polygraph examination. I had nothing to do with that. A former Dallas officer, Napoleon Daniels, was standing at the top of the ramp. It is my understanding he made a statement that he saw Ruby enter the basement by the ramp and that Roy Vaughn, who was assigned to that post, looked at him, nodded to him and permitted him to enter.
Mr. Daniels was subsequently administered a polygraph examination and he flunked the examination.
Mr. SAWYER. Was that ever followed up with any further questioning of him?
Mr. REVILL. I did not question him, no, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. To your knowledge, did anyone else?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, not to my knowledge.
Mr. SAWYER. But it was a conclusion, then, of your special investigative unit that Ruby had come down the ramp, but I infer now you have some reservations.
Mr. REVILL. The conclusion, at the time, was that Mr. Ruby had entered the ramp of the city hall here. Based on information that just came to my attention in June of this year from Sergeant Flusche--there might be a doubt. As I said, I have complete confidence in Mr. Flusche's integrity and credibility.
Mr. SAWYER. There have been some statements that some guards were removed from the interior door about 20 to 30 minutes before the shooting had occurred. Were you aware of that?
Mr. REVILL. I found that out yesterday, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. Just yesterday?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. REVILL. Nothing other than what one of your attorneys told me. I was not present at this location on the date of November 24. I was home.
Mr. SAWYER. Had there been any public announcement or any public information about the intention to transfer Oswald at the time?
Mr. REVILL. As I recall, the chief of police at that time, Jess Curry, publicly stated over the radio and TV that at 10 a.m. on Sunday the 24th, that Mr. Oswald would be moved.
Mr. SAWYER. When you did find out that these guards were removed or had information to that effect, do you know who would have done that, or do you have any information?
Mr. REVILL. I now know who did it, but I didn't at the time because I didn't know they had been moved.
Mr. SAWYER. Do you know who did it? Can you tell us?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I am told Sgt. P.T. Dean, a retired sergeant, removed them.
Mr. SAWYER. Do you know why he removed them?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, other than, again, going back to your counsel, he said they were moved or relocated to a position outside to work vehicular traffic. Again, that is based on your counsel.
Mr. SAWYER. Was there ever any kind of finding as to negligence or otherwise on the protection of this area made by your unit?
Mr. REVILL. I think it is a foregone conclusion that there was negligence; we let the man get killed. But as far as being able to identify any one individual as being responsible or negligent, no, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. And your special unit conducting the investigation made no finding of negligence on behalf of anyone?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, in that the entire department was negligent.
Mr. SAWYER. Did the Warren Commission, so far as you know, rely on your report to that effect?
Mr. REVILL. I don't know, sir.
Mr. SAWYER. But they were aware---
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, they had copies of all of the reports.
Mr. SAWYER. I have nothing further at this time, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. You may resume your seat at the witness table, Captain.
Mr. REVILL. Thank you.
Chairman STOKES. Captain Revill, did you attend the trial of Jack Ruby in Dallas?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir. The district attorney of Dallas County, Mr. Henry Wade, had myself and five of my investigators assigned to his office during the trial of Jack Ruby to assist him in preparing for prosecution.
Chairman STOKES. In the course of the trial, was it not necessary to establish how Ruby had gotten into the basement of the police station?
Mr. REVILL. I never testified to that effect, sir.
Chairman STOKES. No; but in terms of the prosecutor proving the crime, didn't he have to offer evidence of that?
Mr. REVILL. I am sure he did. I was under the rule, and I was not inside the courtroom for the actual testimony. I do not recall who actually testified or addressed that particular facet.
Chairman STOKES. In your capacity of helping the prosecution, you were kept out of the courtroom during the course of the trial?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. And then I assume, then, that you are not familiar with what the evidence was in the case relating to how he got into the police station?
Mr. REVILL. That is correct, sir, I am not familiar.
Chairman STOKES. Are you familiar with whether or not a statement was taken from Jack Ruby by the police at the time of his arrest for the crime?
Mr. REVILL. A written statement or a verbal statement, sir?
Chairman STOKES. Well, either one.
Mr. REVILL. it is my understanding that shortly after the shooting of Mr. Oswald, Ruby made some type of statement to members of the police department in the fifth floor jail, but I was not there, sir, and I don't know exactly what he did say.
Chairman STOKES. I see.
Mr. REVILL. It was a spontaneous statement, or something to that effect.
Chairman STOKES. Let me ask counsel of the committee if they have a statement from Mr. Flusche for the record? I understand that Mr. Fluscher statement to our committee was on June 7, 1978 and has been identified as JFK exhibit F-569; is that correct? I ask unanimous consent that Mr. Flusche's statement be entered into the record at this point.
Without objection, so ordered.
[The above-referred-to exhibit, exhibit JFK F-569, follows:]


Chairman STOKES. The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Preyer.
Mr. PREYER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby in jail after the trial?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, not after the trial.
Mr. PREYER. So, yOU didn't see him again after the trial?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, I saw him during the course of the trial, but I never had occasion to see him after the trial.
Mr. PREYER. The only other question I wanted to be clear in my mind on, I understood you to say that he only, or you only saw Jack Ruby in your bureau, your office, say, twice a year?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, this is correct. And I might explain that. The intelligence section was a part of the special service bureau which consisted of vice, narcotics and intelligence. We were located in room 217 of the police and courts building.
In 1960, due to space limitations, the intelligence unit was physically moved to a building located in the State fairgrounds. My daily activities would require that I make trips to and from the police and courts building, but my office was actually in the building in the fairgrounds.
Prior to that time, I was assigned to that bureau in 1954, August of 1954 I was assigned as detective to the narcotics unit and from 1954 to 1960, I seldom saw Jack Ruby in that office except when he was in the process of renewing a license.
Mr. PREYER. The only point I was getting at, I had the impression that Ruby often visited police headquarters and brought sandwiches to officers. Are you telling us that he didn't do that, or are you telling us that he only visited your particular department that you knew about a couple of times?
Mr. REVILL. I am telling you that I have no knowledge of Ruby's frequent visits to the police and courts building of delivering sandwiches, et cetera.
Mr. PREYER. You are just telling us you don't have knowledge of that; you are not saying that didn't happen?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I might also add my normal duty hours were daytime hours, that Ruby was probably a night-time person, and he could have done this during the evening hours. I have no personal knowledge of it.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you, Captain.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Devine.
Mr. DEVINE. I just want to inquire in one area, Captain. This sergeant, Don Flusche----
Mr. REVILL. Flusche.
Mr. DEVINE. I understand he was standing outside his cruiser with the door open listening or monitoring---
Mr. REVILL. His radio.
Mr. DEVINE. [continuing]. His radio. Was he standing on the offside, the right side of the vehicle?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, he would have been standing on the right side of the automobile parked across the street from the police and courts building.
Mr. DEVINE. So that his automobile was between the officer and the entrance to the ramp?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, he was standing on the curb.
Mr. DEVINE. Yes; I believe you said he knows beyond any doubt in his mind that Jack Ruby, whom he had known many years, did not walk down Main Street anywhere near that ramp?
Mr. REVILL. This is what he told me, sir.
Mr. DEVINE. Was he questioned as to whether he consistently and continuously and without interruption observed the ramp area or was his back at any time turned to it?
Mr. REVILL. He was questioned by Mr. Moriarity of this committee extensively about what transpired and he contends that his vision was not blocked at any time, that Ruby did not walk from the alleyway in front of the municipal building into the ramp of the police and courts building.
Mr. DEVINE. At least he didn't see him.
Mr. REVILL. He didn't see him.
Mr. DEVINE. Was he assigned there specifically for that purpose or was he there just on an off-chance he may have an opportunity to see Oswald depart?
Mr. REVILL. I think the latter is the correct version. He, on that particular day, was the acting watch commander for the northeast division and due to a lack of activity in his particular sector, he had driven to the downtown area to see, in essence, what was going on, and he was parked there when the murder of Oswald took place.
Mr. DEVINE. Do you know, Captain, why he didn't make this information available to the Dallas police in November of 1963 or the Warren Commission in 1964?
Mr. REVILL. He told me he did, that he had related this information to a Lt. Earl Knox, who was his superior, and what Lieutenant Knox did with it, I don't know. I think he is now decreased.
Mr. DEVINE. Do you know whether or not this information came out during the trial of Jack Ruby in Dallas?
Mr. REVILL. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. DEVINE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Ford.
Mr. FORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one question of the witness.
Captain, did you say earlier that the investigating team, consisted of seven, eight different officers?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FORD. In your final report of the investigation you did not include any information regarding the stairway in the municipal building, is that correct?
Mr. REVILL. That's correct, I am saying we didn't submit any information about the stairway.
Mr. FORD. It is just until recently that the stairway in the municipal building was discovered; is that correct?
Mr. REVILL. That's correct.
Mr. FORD. Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Fithian.
Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Captain, did you ask Jack Ruby if he went down the ramp?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. FITHIAN. And he said he refused---
Mr. REVILL. He refused to respond to that saying this would be a part of his defense tactics. What he meant by that, I do not know, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN. I believe Congressman Sawyer referred to this, but I didn't quite understand all the answer, and that's the polygraph test that was administered to Mr. Daniels.
Mr. REVILL. Yes.
Mr. FITHIAN. The information I have and the documents we have is that on the crucial questions about whether he saw somebody go down the ramp and the description of the person, et cetera, he failed every one of those questions.
Mr. REVILL. I am not personally familiar with Mr. Daniels' polygraph examination, other than the fact he was administered one and he did fail the particular test. The pertinent questions, I do not know.
Mr. FITHIAN. Can you tell the committee something more about Mr. Daniels than we now know? What kind of a person was he? How reliable as officer?
Mr. REVILL. I didn't know the gentleman, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN. Let me turn, then, to another area. At the time of the transfer, you said that you were not in the building?
Mr. REVILL. That's correct.
Mr. FITHIAN. But this must have been in the long course of your review and investigation of this, a very, very pertinent topic and, therefore, am I wrong to assume that you are really pretty familiar with what the mood of the action and the activities in the building were?
Mr. REVILL. I had no knowledge of the proposed move of Mr. Oswald. Those were decisions made by the chief of police and the captain commanding the homicide and robbery unit at that time.
Since the incident involving the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, in talking to other people, I formed ideas. But having personal knowledge, no, sir, I have none.
Mr. FITHIAN. Let me ask you another way, then. Isn't it true that there was a real effort to provide security for this transfer?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, there was an effort to provide security. As I have testified earlier, the basement of the city hall, and I am advised of this---
Mr. FITHIAN. I wonder if you could move the microphone over in front of you a little more, Officer.
Mr. REVILL. I am advised that the security survey was made, or a sweep of the basement of the city hall was made prior to the actual movement of Mr. Oswald, that this sweep involved looking into automobiles, under automobiles, behind any possible barricades, and that prior to the actual movement of Mr. Oswald, that the all- clear was given.
As I say, I was not there; this is what I am told.
Mr. FITHIAN. Then, in light of the fact that a fairly significant effort was made to provide security for Oswald and to transfer him to the county sheriffs quarters, what was your finding with regard to Chief Curry's making a public announcement of the time this would take place?
Mr. REVILL. We really did not address that particular aspect,
Mr. FITHIAN. It just seems to me, as a layman--I am not a police officer--to take a celebrated prisoner that had just assassinated the President of the United States and then to announce to the world that at 10 o'clock, you are going to move him from point A to point B----
Mr. REVILL. I agree with you, sir, it is strange.
Mr. FITHIAN [continuing]. Is a remarkable development.
Mr. REVILL. Very strange.
Mr. FITHIAN. Second, was there ever any question as to whether or not the decision to allow the media and the klieg lights and all the commotion that would bring into the basement, was there ever any question, have you conducted that investigation as to why that decision was made?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, we attempted to address that question, and we were advised that, the understanding was made with the network stations that they would not illuminate the klieg lights which were used by the TV stations which tended to blind the participants in the basement of the city hall.
Mr. FITHIAN. Captain, is it your professional opinion that had the commotion and the additional people, the media and the cameras not have been present, that Lee Harvey Oswald would not have been shot?
Mr. REVILL. They contributed to the killing of Oswald, yes, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN. That is, in creating this commotion in the basement--
Mr. REVILL. Mass confusion.
Mr. FITHIAN. Well, then, in your final findings--you were in charge of investigating this whole thing?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, I was not in charge. I was one of the people assigned to the unit to conduct the investigation.
Mr. FITHIAN. You were one of the people assigned---
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN. Were your findings critical of these two decisions, one, to make the public announcement, and, two, to allow the media in so you---
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, I don't think we addressed that particular subject in the investigation report. They did contribute to the confusion, but the decision had been made by the chief of police and possibly some of the city fathers to do this in an effort to cooperate with the news media to assure the world that we had not mistreated Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in our custody.
Mr. FITHIAN. Mr. Chairman, I only have a closing observation. It seems unusual that the two elements, besides Jack Ruby, that seems to have been the source of the event, or the cause of it, would not be addressed in the investigation of it. I guess that is 20-20 hindsight.
I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Edgar.
Mr. EDGAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Captain, who was in command on the Sunday morning of the Oswald shooting?
Mr. REVILL. The chief of police would have been in command of the police department that morning; he was on the premises.
Mr. EDGAR. I had some extensive experience over a 3- or 4-year period in riding with something called the police clergy unit. I also rode in the command car, which, in the city of Philadelphia, was the lieutenant's car. He tried as best he could to be on the scene of any major incident and be on top of the situation and be in control of the situation. Do you know who was in charge?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, the chief of police was in the building the morning of the transfer. As to his physically being present in the basement of the city hall, I have no information to that effect. It is
my understanding the assistant chief at that time, Charles Batche~ lot, and the deputy chief of CID, W.M. Stevenson, were or had been physically present in the basement. But ultimately, responsibility must lie with the chief of police.
Mr. EDGAR. How would you grade his command, A, B, C, D, F, in terms of grading the quality of it on that day?
Mr. REVILL. Sir, I was not present, and again, this is hindsight. I don't feel it would be proper for me to comment--or attempt to evaluate his performance.
Mr. EDGAR. Let me comment for a second because I have been very interested in a couple of things that you have said and a couple of other important things that we have gotten over a period of time. We have analyzed and asked witnesses from the Secret Service and FBI, now the Dallas Police, whether any tape recording or any verbatim of Oswald's testimony was taken, and the answer came back no. We now find out that in terms of security arrangements, centered around the movement of Oswald, from the police station, as to whether or not the security arrangements were really adequate and good, and the answer comes back no, there were mistakes.
Even in the investigative report that you did, you have admitted this morning there was an officer who was not far from the ramp, who had testimony to give, and yet your investigative committee, looking into how Jack Ruby got into the basement, was not analyzed.
You admitted further that an access that would be a possible route of entry into the basement was not brought to your attention until recently.
We could go through a number of other specific events centered around the control of Lee Harvey Oswald, the control of the press, the control of the area, and the security, et cetera. And find a number of mistakes had been made.
Can you identify for the committee why no member of the Dallas Police Department was even reprimanded even slightly for their activities or actions surrounding the death of President Kennedy?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, I cannot personally address myself to that. That decision would have been made by the chief of police.
Mr. EDGAR. Could it have been part of the kind of the environment of police thinking that it is very difficult to publicly criticize any of its own members for mistakes, or part of the environment of the thinking of the Dallas Police Department that they would not want to admit a mistake?
Mr. REVILL. Sir, at that time, I don't think we would have hesitated one bit to admit mistakes because we became, you might say, a laughing stock, keystone cops, due to the inadequate security that we provided for Mr. Oswald.
Mr. EDGAR. But the record indicates that you took no action to reprimand any of your officers for any of the activities that they were involved in.
Mr. REVILL. Had the investigation proved that any particular officer was involved with Mr. Ruby, I would hope that he would have been disciplined.
I can assure you that this would occur today.
Mr. EDGAR. Let me just have one final question. I was surprised at your very quick characterization of Jack Ruby as a balloon and your indication if you were or if there was a personnel director of the underworld, that Jack Ruby would not be someone to hire. But couldn't the speculation also go that the underworld needs a number of people to act in different capacities other than professionally involved in roles of the underworld, and that Jack Ruby could have been used by organized crime in a particular way, and that the speculation that the underworld never uses balloons might be too quick of an analysis of underworld activities?
Mr. REVILL. This is a possibility. Again, Mr. Ruby may have been playing a role, but this is the image that he projected to me and this is my personal opinion, having observed Ruby on infrequent occasions.
As I testified, I never went to his clubs, I would see him on the streets. He was the type person who would run up to you to be identified. He sought attention. This is my interpretation of Ruby, a loud mouth.
Mr. EDGAR. I yield back my time.
Chairman STOKES. The gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Dodd.
Mr. DODD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want at the outset to thank my colleague from Michigan, Mr. Sawyer, for filling in for me on some of those questions. I had to be over in the House Rules Committee.
I would like to ask the witness, did the special unit on that day, on November 24, ever consider the possibility after the fact that Jack Ruby had entered the basement through a route other than through the ramp? Did you examine other alternative routes that he could have come in?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir. After a determination of the physical evidence, by this, the timing, the distances involved, and the fact that Mr. Ruby had reported to other officers that he entered by the ramp, we zeroed in on that particular entry.
Mr. DODD. And didn't examine any other possible alternative?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. DODD. Yet based on the testimony you have given here today, what I have been able to read as a result of previous statements you have given to this committee: one, Ruby in fact did not tell you that this was the way he got in, down the ramp--I will enumerate four or five factors that I have listed in my notes-- there was an alleyway route and an entrance on the side; information that the alleyway entrance door was unguarded; the additional fact that three officers in the car on the ramp said that they did not see Ruby; and that Officer Vaughn did not see Ruby; and that Sergeant Flusche, who was on the other side of the street, on Main Street, he didn't see Ruby walking down the street. Here we have all of this evidence that seems to contradict the statement or the fact that has been believed for so long, that Jack Ruby came down the ramp.
We can conclude in light of all this evidence that he probably didn't come down the ramp? Wouldn't you agree with that?
Mr. REVILL. No, I cannot conclude positively he did not come down the ramp. As I said earlier, the information from Sergeant Flusche came to my attention in June of this year. The three officers who exited the building up the ramp onto Main Street, it is possible that they would not have seen Ruby.
It is also possible that Roy Vaughn in stepping out onto the sidewalk from the entrance to check for oncoming traffic, talking about eastbound traffic on Main Street, to enable the police car to make a left turn across traffic, Jack Ruby could have slipped into the basement at that time.
But I am satisfied that Roy Vaughn did not see Jack Ruby nor did he knowingly permit him to enter the basement.
Mr. DODD. You would have to agree this day that there exists a strong possibility, in light of all the evidence that has come to light since that time, that Jack Ruby could just as easily have entered the basement, in fact more easily, entered the basement through that alleyway and that unguarded door?
Mr. REVILL. This is possible, if that particular door leading to the alleyway was unlocked.
Mr. DODD. Prior to the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, in fact only minutes before, Jack Ruby sent a money order from the Western Union office. Did the special unit consider the possibility that Jack Ruby had utilized the sending of this money order to make his entrance to the basement and that the subsequent shooting of Oswald seemed a fluke or coincidence of timing?
Mr. REVILL. We discussed it, yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. What did you conclude?
Mr. REVILL. If that be the case, then Ruby had to have had assistance from someone in the police department. To know exactly what time Oswald was to be transferred.
Mr. DODD. Did the inspection unit assume that for Jack Ruby--I guess you have answered that by your response to your last question--you would have assumed he would have had to have assistance? Did you examine or how thoroughly did you examine whether or not there was a possibility of such assistance?
Mr. REVILL. We interviewed everyone that had been assigned to the basement. We interviewed members of the news media in an effort to determine if there was complicity between Ruby and any member of the police department or anyone else for that matter, and we were unsuccessful in that endeavor.
Mr. DODD. We will suspend for one moment.
Counsel informs me of another possibility. I guess for the 15 years we have always assumed that word would have had to come out to Ruby from the police station, to inform him as to exactly when Lee Harvey Oswald was going to be transferred. Did the special unit ever consider the possibility that the arrival of Jack Ruby triggered the decision to then move Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. REVILL. No sir, because it would have taken longer. If you can believe the fact that he did send a telegram or a wire to Fort Worth at 11:16, you have got a time lapse of 4 minutes from the time the operator date stamped the wire until his shooting of Oswald in the basement. That is a 4-minute period. That would have taken time--timing would have had to be perfect and knowing the elevator situation in the jail I can't see that they would have played it that close.
Mr. DODD. I would like to pursue just one other line of questioning, if I could.
You testified before the Warren Commission, is that correct?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. And you stated there that .you .knew James Hosty?
Mr. REVILL. I knew him well.
Mr. DODD. Could you tell this committee, without going through an elaborate questioning process, in your own words, tell us of your encounter with James Hosty on November 22, 1963, where it occurred, and what James Hosty told you when you ran into him, approximately the time you ran into him?
Mr. REVILL. Of course, this will be based on memory. Basically, what occurred on that date, after searching the School Book Depository, finding the weapon and other evidence, I departed the Depository and returned to the Police and Courts Building accompanied by three detectives who worked in the intelligence unit. As I entered the ramp off of Main Street into the Police and Courts Building---
Mr. DODD. This is the same ramp? Mr. REVILL. The same ramp.
I was followed, or either I followed James Hosty, a member of the FBI. We both parked our cars----
Mr. DODD. You weren't following him specifically, he just happened to be coming into the building?
Mr. REVILL. He just happened to be coming into the building. We both parked our cars. He approached me, and again from memory, he commented to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald, a Communist, had killed President Kennedy.
Mr. DODD. What time of day was this? If I told you that in your testimony in 1964 you had said it was approximately 2:30 in the afternoon, would you argue?
Mr. REVILL. I wouldn't argue. It was at a time after Oswald had been taken into custody at the Texas Theater but before his arrival at the Police and Courts Building.
Mr. DODD. Were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir, not at that time.
Mr. DODD. Were you aware that Mr. Hosty knew that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested at that time?
Mr. REVILL. No, I assumed he did based on his statements to me.
Mr. DODD. You said, and I will quote, you said in 1964, I will quote your response to Mr. Rankin, just so you can refresh your memory and you can correct it if you would like, this is your testimony: "And. Mr. Hosty ran over to me and he says, Jack, as I recall these words, a Communist killed President Kennedy.
"I said, What?
"He said, Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy.
"I said, Who is Lee Oswald?
"He said, He is in our Communist file. We knew he was here in Dallas.
"At that time Hosty and I started walking off, and Detective Bryan as well as I recall, sort of stayed back and so forth."
Then he also states to you that at that time, according to your testimony in 1964, that they knew, that he knew, Jim Hosty knew, that Lee Oswald was capable of killing the President. You became upset at that?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. Is that a fair---
Mr. REVILL. That is a fair"-
Mr. DODD [continuing]. Assessment of the conversation and your reaction?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. Why were you upset?
Mr. REVILL. Because we had worked with the Bureau on identifying people who posed not so much physical threats to Mr. Kennedy but those people who would attempt to embarrass him, and also those who would harm him. We had shared information but on this particular person, for some reason, Mr. Hosty had not shared the information with us.
Mr. DODD. This was not normal operating procedure. In fact he had in the past---
Mr. REVILL. Well, in dealing with the FBI, local law enforcement, most of it is of a personal relationship with the agents and my relationship with Mr. Hosty was that we shared information but in this particular case he had not.
Mr. DODD. Did he tell you why he--how he drew the conclusion that Mr. Oswald was a Communist?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir. What happened, after making this statement or these remarks to me, I asked him what he was going to do with the information, and he said he wanted to talk to Will Fritz, who was the Captain of Homicide. I asked him if he knew Captain Fritz and his response was no, so with that I accompanied Agent Hosty to the third floor homicide and Captain Fritz was not present at the time, some of his staff were.
I left Mr. Hosty in that office and returned to the second floor, to the Special Service Bureau office.
Mr. DODD. You are sure of that?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I am sure.
Mr. DODD. There was extensive questioning as to which route you took.
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir. I don't walk up three flights of stairs when there is an elevator.
Mr. DODD. This was all about 2:30?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. In the afternoon?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. Prior to the time Lee Harvey Oswald had arrived at the police station?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. Can we just suspend for 1 minute?
Could I ask you if in fact later at a subsequent time in your conversations with Jim Hosty, you ever explored with him how it was that he happened to have drawn the conclusions he had, how he happened to develop a file on Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir. After, 1 believe, that night, Chief Curry went on TV and announced that the FBI had information to this effect.
Later, it is my understanding that the statement was--he made a retraction, and from that day I don't recall ever talking to Jim Hosty again. I may have but I don't recall. And I do know that we never discussed
Mr. DODD. You said you wrote up a report?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. Pertaining to the Hosty conversation?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. DODD. You signed it that afternoon according to your testimony in 1964 and you state then, you said, "yes sir, at the time I was hoping it would never come up."
Mr. REVILL. This is true.
Mr. DODD. Would you tell this committee why you hoped it would never come up?
Mr. REVILL. Because Jim Hosty was a friend of mine and I knew that Hoover would crucify him.
Mr. DODD. Crucify him for what?
Mr. REVILL For making that statement. Whether or not it was true or not, Hosty made the statement to me and I relayed the information to my captain at the time, Pat Ganaway, shortly after our conversation, and he instructed me to reduce it to writing.
At that time I told him if I do, Jim Hosty will be crucified or penalized by the Bureau, and to that he said, "I don't care, you put it on paper." I put it on paper.
Mr. DODD. Which, is he going to be, crucified for telling you or crucified for not following in the normal operating procedures of sharing that information with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. REVILL. It is not normal operating procedure for the FBI to share that information with you. As I mentioned to you earlier, the information local law enforcement gets from the Federal Bureau of Investigation is primarily based on personal contact between an agent and the officer.
Mr. DODD. So he more than likely would have been crucified by the Director for admitting to the Dallas Police Department that they had information in the security file on someone who they perceived as capable of assassinating the President?
Mr. REVILL. I can only assume that, sir.
Mr. DODD. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. Any further questions?
Mr. Cornwell?
Mr. CORNWELL. Just one very brief matter, Captain Revill. Were you sitting in the room earlier when we, through a narrative, provided the results of a phone analysis?
Mr. REVILL. I was in and out, sir, I wasn't paying much attention.
Mr. CORNWELL. Let me ask you, then, there were a number of people who were identified through an analysis of Ruby's phone calls as receiving calls from him or making calls to him in the months immediately prior to the assassination. Those individuals include Irwin Weiner, Nofio Pecora, Harold Tannenbaum, Barney Baker, Dusty Miller, Lenney Patrick, Dave Yaras.
Did you or the police department, to your knowledge, have any information about Ruby's association with any of those individuals during 1963?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. CORNWELL. Was the police department, to your knowledge, even acquainted with the names of those persons or with their reputations among law enforcement agencies?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I knew some of them.
Mr. CORNWELL. In 1963, I take it that the Dallas Police Department had no organized crime unit, per se, is that correct?
Mr. REVILL. We had an intelligence unit which was charged with gathering data on organized crime.
Mr. CORNWELL. Well, simply, if you would give us your estimate of the possibility or probability that if one or more of those persons would have been in Dallas prior to November 22 and had met with Jack Ruby, would the nature and scope of your intelligence program have been such as to likely identify such meetings?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, had we had knowledge of a meeting involving these people with Ruby. Now, one of these persons you mentioned, I believe Miller, Dusty Miller, he may still be in Dallas, 1 don't know, he was head of one of the unions, Teamsters there, and for him to have contacted Ruby, it may or may not have caused us concern. These other people, possible.
Mr. CORNWELL. Would your intelligence unit officers have been knowledgeable of the appearance of these people, would they have recognized them if they had been in town?
Mr. REVILL. Possibly. I am not sure that we would have recognized them upon sight. Hopefully some other intelligence unit throughout the country would have forewarned us that they were enroute to Dallas.
Mr. CORNWELL. No further questions. Thank you.
Chairman STOKES. I think this might be an appropriate place for the Chair to make a special acknowledgement.
Over the life of the existence of this committee it has been necessary for our investigators to spend an enormous amount of time in Dallas and to be in touch with the Dallas Police Department and other city officials and we want to acknowledge the extraordinary amount of cooperation that the committee investigators received from all of the city officials in Dallas, along with the Dallas Police Department, particularly Chief Byrd, who when our investigators first went to Dallas, gave them a letter of carte blanche enabling them to go anywhere and talk to anyone and to have full reign in terms of gathering evidence for this committee, and the Department has on occasions located witnesses for us.
As you know, if you have been in touch with these hearings, that we have produced evidence that has been turned over by the Police Department to our investigators, particularly in conjunction with the acoustics tests which were conducted in Dallas in Dealey Plaza. The police department provided extraordinary cooperation in order that we might conduct that testing, and provided us with their own sharpshooters and blockaded the area, and did everything necessary. In fact, that morning they started testing somewhere in the area of 5 o'clock in the morning and went to noon trying to provide this committee with the kind of evidence we have been able to produce here at these hearings, and I certainly want to extend to both Chief Byrd and the Dallas Police Department our appreciation for that cooperation.
Mr. Revill, at the conclusion of your testimony as a witness before our committee, you are entitled to 5 minutes, at which time you may make any comment you desire on your testimony before our committee. I extend to you at this time 5 minutes for that purpose, if you so desire. Mr. REVILL I have no statement to make, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Then we thank you for having been here and the testimony you have given our committee this morning.
Mr. REVILL Thank you very much.
Chairman STOKES. You are excused.
There being nothing further to come before the committee, the committee will adjourn until 9 a.m. tomorrow morning.
[Whereupon, at 1:08 p.m., the committee was adjourned, to reconvene at 9 a.m., Wednesday, September 27 1978.]