DEPOSITIONS OF MARINA OSWALD PORTER
Staff Report of the
Select Committee on Assassinations
U.S. House of Representatives
Deposition of Marina Oswald Porter, Sept. 20, 1977
Deposition of Marina Oswald Porter, Aug. 9, 1978
During Marina Oswald Porter's public testimony before the committee on September 13, 1978, Congressman Preyer stated the two depositions she had previously given the committee's staff would be make part of the committee's final report. Those depositions are reprinted in their entirety in this appendix.
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1977
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS,
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:44 a.m., in room 16G28, Federal Building, Dallas, Tex.
Present: Ken Klein, assistant deputy chief counsel, and Clifford Fenton, chief investigator.
Mr. MULLOY. For the record, I am Patrick H Mulloy, U.S. Magistrate for the Northern District of Texas, here for the purpose of swearing in Marina Oswald Porter for a deposition this morning.
Will you raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give on this deposition will be the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. PORTER. I do.
Mr. MULLOY. Further, pursuant to the laws of the United States, I am authorized--I wish I had a copy of the Code--I am authorized to take oaths.
Mr. KLEIN. Good morning. My name is Kenneth Klein and I am the assistant deputy chief counsel for the House Select committee on Assassinations. Today is September 20, 1977, it is approximately 10:55 in the morning. Present is Clifford Fenton, who is the chief investigator for the House Select Committe on assassinations. To your right is Mrs. Jewel McGrath, who is a stenographer and, as you can see, she is taking down everything we are saying here. For the record, would you please identify yourself?
The WITNESS. Mrs. Marina Porter.
By Mr. KLEIN:
Q. Please give your address.
A. I live on Route 1, Box 228A, Rockwell, Tex.
Q. We are in the conference room in room 16G28 of the Federal building here in Dallas, Tex. Now, I have been designated to obtain statements from witnesses under oath by the Select Committee on Assassinations. Up to this point I met you approximately 1 hour ago and I have not spoke to you about any of the facts pertaining to the death of President Kennedy, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Before we go any further, is this statement that you are giving us now a voluntary statement?
A. It is.
Q. you have not been subpenaed to appear here, you are appearing voluntarily, is that correct?
A. that is correct.
Q. I have advised you that you have a right to have a lawyer present during this statement, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Do you wish to have a lawyer present?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Now, do you at this time have any difficulties speaking or understanding English?
A. I don't think so. I will ask if I don't understand something.
Q. You have lived in the United States for how many years?
A. Just a minute-1962.
Q. From 1962 to 1977, that is 15 years?
Q. Do you speak English in the course of your every day activities here?
A. I do.
Q. If you do have any problem understanding anything that I say, please ask me and I will put it into a form that you will understand. Is to fair to say you have no problems communicating with people in English from day to day?
A. Usually I don't; if I do not understand a certain work, I will ask the meaning of it.
Q. Before me I have a copy of our committee rules. It is entitled Committee Rules of the Select committee on Assassination, U.S. House of Representatives, 95th Congress. I also have a copy of House Resolution 433 and a copy of House Resolution 222 and I am making all three documents available to you and I also should note for the record that I made these available to you approximately 15 minutes ago when we entered this room.
Q. I am going to ask you questions, many of which will pertain to testimony that you gave before the Warren Commission when you testified before that body. In some cases I am asking the question because I want to know if you might remember any more, or I am asking it because I have more detail to ask than they asked.
A. I don't know what the word "pertain" means. Is that a source of information?
Q. About, in other words-which was the sentence? What I mean is, that many of the questions I ask you, you were asked similar questions by the Warren Commission about the same subjects.
Q. I would like to see if I can possibly get some more detail on some of the questions and in some cases I will ask you question the Warren Commission did not ask you at all.
Q. I realize that it has been approximately 15 years since some of these events occurred and you might have difficulty remembering particular facts or information, so I would just request that you do your best and, if you don't remember something, you can say you don't remember.
A. Excuse me, you know how memory plays tricks on you.. Do you think if I try to answer some questions to the best of my ability from the memory, it would be not entirely contradictory to what i said before but maybe details may be different from what I said then so can I just go by what I said?
Q. What you can do is-I have here your testimony and if at any point you would like to look at a particular part of the testimony, you can.
A. Can you read it for me, what I said, and can I agree with it?
Q. As I said, I am interested in most cases in things that were not asked of you by the Warren Commission or where they might have touched on a subject or not asked you about particular aspects of it which I am going to ask you about.
Q. But if there is a point where you don't remember a particular fact, then just tell us you don't remember that.
Q. Do you recall testifying before the Warren Commission?
A. Yes; I do.
Q. Did anyone ever tell you what you should testify to them?f
Q. Did anyone ever suggest to you in any way how you should testify, or what you should say to the Warren Commission?
Q. to your knowledge, as you sit here today, is there anything which you testified to before the Warren Commission which you now believe to be incorrect?
A. No; I never read my own testimony but whatever I said was the truth.
Q. My next question was going to be now that you speak and understand english much better than you did at the time you testified before the Warren Commission, have you ever had the opportunity to look over the printed testimony, your testimony before the Warren Commission?
A. No; I never have. I had an interpreter, I believe.
Q. At that time you had an interpreter. What I am saying is, in the years since then, if you testified now you wouldn't need an interpreter, I take it, is that correct?
Q. What I am asking is, did anybody ever give you the transcripts of what you testified before the Warren Commission and let you read that transcript?
A. I had the privilege of reading my testimony, it was offered to me but I didn't read it.
Q. You never did?
Q. Is there anything which you didn't tell the Warren Commission about relating to the assassination of President Kennedy which you can tell us now?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Is there any area where the Warren Commission did not ask you any questions and yet you know that you did possess some information that related to the assassination of President Kennedy, but they didn't ask you about it?
A. I did not study the Warren Commission report so I was not looking for faults.
Q. I am not saying a fault, am saying is there any area where they didn't ask questions in a particular area so you did not volunteer the information which you can think of at this time?
A. I think I lost you. Would you please repeat that?
Q. What I am saying is this, is there any information which you might have possessed which related to the assassination of President Kennedy where the Warren Commission, for whatever reason, did not ask you a question in that area and therefore you wouldn't have told them about it. Is there anything like that that you can tell us about now?
A. What you really mean, if I had hidden something inside that will maybe open up something more?
Q. Not necessarily that you have hidden something.
A. Or forgot?
Q. An area where they simply did not ask you about it and at the time you didn't remember to tell them about it so it was never told.
A. I don't think so. You see, when you listen to the news and television you don't know where the sources come from, the Warren Commission or somebody else, you never question going back to the Warren Commission and reading it, was it there or not.
Q. I would like to ask you a few questions now concerning your background in Russia.
Q. When you met Lee Harvey Oswald, where were you living at that time?
A. With my aunt and uncle in Minsk.
Q. What was your uncle's name?
A. Ilya Proosakov.
Q. When you testified before the Warren Commission, you stated that he worked for the Ministry of Interior, is that correct?
A. Just a minute, let me translate from Russian to English. Yes; Minister in Internal Affairs.
Q. Ministry of Internal Affairs?
Q. What did he do for the Ministry?
A. He was engineer by profession but that is all I know. He had some kind of ranking, military ranking as well. He had to wear a uniform.
Q. Do you recall testifying he was a colonel or lieutenant?
A. Lieutenant colonel.
Q. Do you have any idea what his job was?
A. No; he never discussed his job at home.
Q. Sonce you testified before the Warren Commission, since that time, have you ever heard from that uncle?
A. I did place a telephone call once to my uncle, it was about 4 years ago. At first I wasn't sure that it was him. You never know with the Russians. But then I asked him to speak to my aunt and he said that she is not available, so I asked him what time it was over there, he said just wait a minute and let me go and check. It took a little while, so then I knew it was him. He was very cold on the telephone, he was like an icicle. I do not expect a relative to be so cold. He didn't answer any questions except yes and no and that was it. then I asked to speak to my aunt, but she was out of the apartment.
Q. Did you ever speak to him about the assassination at all?
Q. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever meet your uncle when you were in Russia?
A. He met him before we were married, sure.
Q. What kind of relationship did they have?
A. Just polite. They were courteous to each other, sometimes they discussed politics and each of them had a different opinion but they really didn't argue, you know, that loudly.
Q. Did they ever spend any time together when you were not present?
Q. Did they ever, to your knowledge, go anywhere together?
A. I don't think so. Sometimes we would visit. Lee would sometimes visit my aunt and uncle when I would be home with the baby or sometimes me and my aunt would talk and they would talk together.
Q. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever speak to you about your uncle?
A. Of course he did. We discussed our relatives.
Q. What generally was his feeling toward your uncle?
A. That he consedered him kind of cool and really-just a minute, let me phrase it right--not very open person, that he was kind of secretive and he said that he had been under--I mean worked with the Government so long or whatever his schooling was, that he does not open up that quick.
Q. Was your uncle associalted in any way with the secret police?
A. I don't think so. I would not know. That is my guess.
Q. What do you really mean by secret police, doing arrests or something like that?
A. Since I don't know what kind of job he really was doing, I cannot speculate so whatever I said could be true or not true.
Q. when you say you don't know what kind of job he was doing, was it unusual that you wouldn't know what kind of job your uncle, who you were living with, was doing?
A. No; it is an official building, lots of people would live in the same building live there. There were doctors and engineers, professions. Once the ago behind the doors you don't know what the were doing. I know what his profession was.
Q. Did he make an effort to not let you know what his job was?
A. It never entered my mind to ask him what particular things he was doing.
Q. Did you live with him?
A. Yes, and it was understood that the job that he is doing is not to be discussed at home. He telephone number there was unlisted, only his wife knew it. She have me his telephone number once I called him. He was upset and he told me never to call his telephone number again. I thought it was sick.
Q. You have no idea what his actual function was?
A. Sometimes he brought books home and they would be concerned with-just a minute, I don't know how to translate the name of the college he finished-can we go off the record?
Q. Ask the question on the record.
A. For example, a person working with the wood, the forest, it doesn't mean a ranger or lumberjack, but you have to study all about grains, mathematics, and things.
Q. Are you saying the books he brought home were concerned with wood?
A. The industry, everything having to do with the wood. That is what he mentioned. Sometimes like college kids would have exams and he would be present and check their papers, too, once a year.
Q. Did your uncle ever express any views to you about the United States?
A. Oh, yes, every time I mentioned something about America and other countries, he said, well, you think everything in foreign countries are better, he said they have just as much junk as we do. He was quite patriotic.
Q. Did he ever say he liked or disliked the United States?
A. My opinion was that he did like it because we had a subscription to American Magazine that was prohibited by law but until then we always had it.
Q. Did your uncle ever mention President Kennedy?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. To your knowledge, is he still alive?
A. I don't know if I would hear if he died, because he was pretty old then. He had one heart attack. My aunt was pampering him all the time. She was afraid he was going to die.
Q. Do you recall the name of the person who introduced you to Lee harvey Oswald?
A. I forgot most of the Russian names. Do you have any names. Could you have any names with you? I can tell you if it is correct or not.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you you testifies to the warren commission it was Yuri Mereginsky?
A. I don't remember anybody by that name, but it is probably correct.
Q. M-E-R-E-G-I-N-S-K-Y? Do you recall-
A. That is probably correct but I do not remember it.
Q. When I say that name, do you remember the person?
Q. Nothing at all?
A. No, because it was a group of young men around and right now in my mind I can't remember exactly what the figures looked like who introduced me to this is so and this is so and so.
Q. Could you tell us what were the circumstances under which you were introduced to Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. I had a date. I was invited for the dance and I promised the boy for 6 months that I would go to the ball with him. We were there. It was another group of people and I was introduced to him by somebody.
Q. Was it just-was it a coincidence that you were introduced to him or did somebody intend you to meet him, did somebody want you to meet this particular person?
A. It was a coincidence.
Q. You have no recollection of the person that actually introduced you to him?
Q. You have no recollection of the person Yuri Mereginsky?
A. No I wish I knew who it was.
Q. Do you recall what year you and Lee Harvey Oswald left the Soviet Union?
A. I believe it was June 1962.
Q. Was it unusual for a Soviet woman who had married an American to be granted permission to leave the country?
A. I was surprised they granted me permission, I really was.
Q. Do you have any idea why you were granted permission?
A. I considered it just being lucky.
Q. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever indicate to you whether he knew how come you were allowed to leave the country?
A. He had his doubts as well.
Q. he had his doubts as to whether you would be---
A. As to whether I would be able to leave.
Q. Did you ever say to him, "Why do you suppose they let me Leave?"
A. A don't remember if I ever asked him this question but I sure did ask myself.
Q. Did he ever say anything after you were granted permission?
A. We were just very happy that we would be going to go.
Q. Do you recall when you were informed that you would be allowed to leave?
A. I could be May.
Q. I am not asking so much for the date as for where you were, where he was and just in what manner you were informed.
A. I think we received some kind of letter, or information, it was through the mail. Nobody came and announced.
Q. Were you both, that means you and Lee Harvey Oswald, present when you opened that particular letter?
A. I don't remember whether I was alone or he read it-had the message.
Q. Do you remember what his reaction was when he first learned that they were going to allow you to leave?
A. Oh, whoopee, you know.
Q. Was it a surprise?
A. It was a joyful event.
Q. What I am asking is did he appear to be surprised that you were allowed to leave or did she seem maybe to expect that you would be able to leave?
A. He did not expect that. I felt like I was just worthless to the Russians so they just let me go. That is the only explanation I can give because I have a very bad characteristic from work.
Q. I should indicate for the record that the U.S. attorney, U.S. Attorney Mighell just entered the room and gave me a piece of paper and then left the room. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever speak to you at any time about-I mean after you were granted this permission, did he ever speak to you about how it came about that you were granted this permission to leave?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Would you tell me what physical markings you recall on the body of Lee Harvey Oswald, I mean any scars, anything that you could describe, any marks on his body?
A. He had a thin scar on his wrist.
Q. Which wrist?
A. The one he wore his watch on, I don't know whether it was right or left.
Q. The one he wore his watch on?
Q. Where was the scar?
A. On the inside.
Q. You pointed to the inside of your left wrist.
Q. Any other scars on his body?
A. I think one behind his ear.
Q. Do you recall which ear?
Q. The one behind his ear, was it noticeable?
A. Maybe it wasn't noticeable; you had to look for it.
Q. Could it bee seen without pushing his hair back or was it---
A. No; you could not see it.
Q. You had to look for it to see it.
Q. To your knowledge did he have any other marks on his body?
A. I don't remember. I don't think he had an appendix scar.
Q. The Warren Commission questioned you and you testified that at certain times FBI agents spoke with you, is that correct?
A. I recall that we had some visits from some men and since I didn't speak any English, I have been told by Lee that is was FBI man. Then once that I remember, it was an agent who claimed to be from the FBI. It was Ruth Paine, the agent from the FBI came, and he spoke to me through her. he was the interpreter.
Q. What did she tell you the FBI man said?
A. He said-he asked questions if I had been approached by any foreign agent at any time since I arrived from Russia and would I tell him or call him right away if anybody would do such a thing.
Q. Do you recall the name of the FBI agent?
A. Since I have been listening to the news and testified a few times, I think the name is Hastings, but as far as remembering the man being introduced by this name at the time, I do not.
Q. Is the name James Hosty, familiar?
A. Yes; that is familiar, that is the name of an associate with the man who came to the house with Ruth Paine.
Q. Now, you testified before the Warren Commission that at sometime in August 1962 Lee Harvey Oswald went outside and spoke to some FBI men for a couple of hours?
A. If I testified to it, that is probably--I mean that is true.
Q. Do you remember right now as you sit here today, do you remember that incident where he went outside and spoke to FBI agents?
A. Very vaguely. Was it in Fort Worth?
Q. I believe that was what your testimony was.
A. That is the memory that I have, that it was in Fort Worth.
Q. Do you recall anything he said to you after he finished speaking to the FBI men?
A. I recall when he came inside he was quite upset over it and wished that they had left him alone.
Q. What did he tell you about his relationship with the FBI? What were his feelings toward the FBI?
A. The information that he gave me and his reasons for being upset was because he said he was annoyed by them checking on him; the only reason for that is that he just returned from Russia.
Q. Were the feelings that he expressed about the FBI-did they ever change or was he always annoyed at them?
A. I think he was annoyed all the time.
Q. Was there any time when he ever appeared to like them or to be friendly with them?
A. I don't think so. I think he was reserved and polite and that was it. I didn't hear the conversation. If I did, it was in a different language anyway, I mean from mine.
Q. I am talking more about what he would say to you at times when he was alone with you about his contacts with the FBI. Did he ever appear to be friendly toward them?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. This agent Hosty--
A. Excuse me, what do you mean, invite for a cup of coffee and be very hospitable, is that what you mean?
Q. You testified before the Warren commission and to us just now at times he was angry with them for bothering him. What I am asking you is, were there any other times when he might have said to you, "Gee, I like the FBI; I think they do a good job," or something like that?
A. No; he never said that.
Q. This agent James Hosty who spoke with you at one time, have you ever seem or spoken to him since the date of the assassination?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Since you spoke to the Warren Commission, have FBI agents come and interviewed you at any time or spoken to you at any time since you testified before the Warren Commission?
A. I testified for the Warren Commission I believe three times.
A. You mean after the third time did they ever contact me?
Q. That is correct.
A. If I have been in contact with them, it does not have anything to do with the warren Commission testimony.
Q. My question, I will make it more specific, did they ever contact your or you have contact with them on anything relating to the Warren Commission or the assassination of President Kennedy?
Q. Are you aware that a short time before the assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald delivered a note to the FBI office in Dallas addressed to agent Hosty?
A. When I heard this on the news, I was surprised.
Q. When you heard it on the news, was that the first time that you ever knew anything about this?
A. That was news to me that a note like that even existed. I had my doubts because knowing a little bit of Lee's personality and my knowledge he had been annoyed by the FBI and wanted to be left alone, I wondered if he would go-I don't know the right word for it-and threaten somebody with a note. The content of the note I found out through the news media. I seriously doubt---
Q. Forgetting what the news said the content of the note was, you had no indication from him that he had ever written a note to them?
A. I do not remember that. He slightly mentioned something. I do not recall at all because I was surprised when I heard on the news. It didn't bring any memories, like, well, I forgot. Lee said, "Well, I am going"--he mentioned he was going to talk to them and tell them to stop harassing him, that is true, but I don't recall that he mentioned anything about the note.
Q. Did you tell him that they were harassing you?
A. No; I just told him about the incident that the man came alone and what he asked me and it make him angry.
Q. It make Lee Harvey Oswald angry?
Q. Did he say what he was going to do, that he was going to do anything about it?
A. He said he was going to ask them to leave me out of all these visits.
Q. Did Lee Harvey Oswald tell you that he spoke to the FBI when he was arrested in New Orleans?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Are you surprised to learn that Lee Harvey Oswald, upon being arrested in New Orleans, asked to speak to the FBI?
A. I didn't know that he asked to speak to the FBI.
Q. I am saying if I were to tell you that, that he did do that, would that surprise you?
A. Really not, because I think the FBI is a Government branch and beside the police, to call somebody else when it is something international you don't call the police; you would call the FBI, that is what I would call.
Q. When the Warren Commission took your testimony they asked you if to your knowledge did Lee Harvey Oswald ever work for the FBI. And you testified he didn't. (Witness shook her head no.)
Q. Is there anything you have thought of or learned in the intervening years which might make you either change your answer or question whether he might have worked for the FBI?
A. You know, so many different speculative things have been raised through the news media--
Q. I am not saying things you read in the newspaper, I am saying from your won personal memories.
A. No; not from my personal life.
Q. Let me say this before going further. All the questions I am asking you I would like you to answer from your own personal knowledge and memory of events and, unless I specifically ask for it, I would hope you would not answer any questions based on what you read in the newspaper or saw on television.
A. Yes; it is very confusing.
Q. I want to make that clear.
A. Whatever you are asking right now, it will be from my personal memory. OK.
Q. Have any people ever contacted you either before or after the assassination and identified themselves as members of the Central Intelligence Agency?
Q. Have any people ever contacted you either before of after the assassination and identified themselves as agents for any U.S. Government agency?
A. No. You are a government representative, so--
Q. That is correct, so other than myself, has anybody ever contacted and asked you or told you anything relating to Lee Harvey Oswald or relating to the assassination of the President?
A. I give the answer no first but now, since I look back, I have been surrounded by FBI agents and Secret Service men all the time. I didn't ask for identification all the time.
Q. The FBI and Secret Service, any other Government agents?
Q. Now, you testified before the Warren Commission that after Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in Dallas you had one oportunity to speak with him; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. To the best of your recollection would you tell us everything that was said at that time by you and by him?
A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember the details of the conversation. The thing I recall was it was in jail and it was a glass window and we spoke by the telephone, or through the telephone.
Q. Did you speak in English or Russian?
A. In Russian. He pointed with his eyes on the telephone and the way I understood it was that he tried to say it was bugged so be careful what you say so we just spoke about the casual things at home. That is all I can recall. I was thinking you probably have documents of the conversation.
Q. I just wanted your remarks.
A. I just asked him what the bruise was about, how he was feeling. He assured me not to worry, everything would be all right.
Q. When he told you everything would be all right, did he give you any indication of why he thought it would be all right?
A. He did speak to his mother as well, or brother. Since I didn't speak English, I thought maybe he have them places that they might call for help, a lawyer. He mentioned to me something about Red Cross. If I need anything that is where I should call.
Q. On the date of the assassination he was working in the Texas School Book Depository; is that correct?
A. That is right.
Q. Did he discuss with you that job at any time?
A. If he did, I don't remember what he was telling about the job, anything specific.
Q. Did he ever have any conversation with you about whether he could take that particular job?
A. I don't remember. Why not, a job was a job and it wasn't very easy for him to find a job. I would welcome any job he could get.
Q. you testified before the Warren Commission that you spoke to him on the Thursday right before the assassination. The assassination was on Friday; is that correct?
A. Yes. I don't remember the dates but, if you say it was a Thursday, I believe you.
Q. Do you remember seeing him-
A. The night before? Yes.
Q. The night before. Did he discuss with you at that time the fact that the President would come to Dallas the next day?
A. Yes; he did.
Q. Did he discuss the fact that the President would be passing by the Texas School Book Depository?
A. No. I kept asking questions because I was very curious about President Kennedy being in Dallas. It was very exciting and his answers were very, very cold and he looked like he didn't want to talk about it.
Q. You also testified before the Warren Commission that he had mentioned on that day renting an apartment in Dallas; do you recall that?
A. We were separated not for the reasons of having a divorce or something like that, it was because of the financial difficulties and there was only one way we could manage to save some money, if we lived apart. He wanted to come back; we were planning to get together as soon as possible, so he did mention the apartment.
Q. Do you remember him saying, on that day before the assassination, if you wanted he would rent an apartment in Dallas for you and him to live together?
A. I think so.
Q. Did he indicate to you-I withdraw that.
A. I think we had an argument that week or the night before, I don't know, because when I tried to contact him at his apartment by the number he gave me, they say there is no such person living there so he apparently didn't give the right name to them so I was very frustrated-I don't know why he shouldn't use his own name, why he should hide.
Q. Do you recall testifying before the Warren Commission that he was very secretive?
A. Yes; he was.
Q. How else was he secretive; what else did he do that was secretive? A. I would like to learn English, I would like to meet neighbors because it was very lonely to live all by yourself. He didn't want me to speak to anybody or even try to. He didn't want them to find out I was from Russia. I didn't think is was that embarrassing.
Q. Did he ever tell you why he didn't want people to know you were from Russia?
A. The way I understand, it looks like in this couantry people would be very suspicious of people coming from Communist country and he doesn't want people to stare at us or give us any difficulty; that was his explanation. I found out differently ever since.
Q. Did he hide the fact that he had been to Russia? Did he try to hide that from people?
A. I think so.
Q. Did he hide the fact that he wanted to go to Cuba? Did he hide that from people?
Q. Do you remember this particular discussing the day before the assassination about him renting an apartment in Dallas?
A. I think so.
Q. What was your answer to his suggestion that he do so?
A. I really don't remember. I don't remember if I was still angry with him; I really don't recall.
Q. Do you recall if he said when in particular he would rent this apartment?
A. The location, no.
Q. Not the location but when he would rent it?
A. In the very near future, maybe a week or two.
Q. Do you recall how he got a job in the Texas School Book Depository building?
A. Through a friend.
Q. Do you recall what particular friend?
A. I think it was Ruth Paine, but I am not sure. The way I remember right now I think she was the one who was very helpful and she spoke to somebody she knew who worked there. I was very happy she helped him find a job.
Q. Were you present when Lee Harvey Oswald first learned he could have a job in the Texas School Book Depository?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was it you who told him about the job?
A. Maybe it was Ruth. I probably was present because it is all in the same house. Maybe he went over there and they told him he can have a job. I really don't recall at all how it was all about.
Q. At the time that he took the job in the Texas School book Depository, were you aware of any other offers that he had for jobs in other places?
A. You se, I read sonce so that is a very confusing-
Q. I am not interested in what you read.
A. I don't remember if I knew or not.
Q. If he would have had another job offer at the same time for more money, can you think of any reason why he might have taken the job in the Texas School Book Depository instead of another job?
A. I do believe he did like Ruth and, since she went to all the trouble to get the job for him, I think that would have been the courteous thing to do.
Q. Do you think he might have taken a job for less money just because hi liked Ruth?
A. No; it doesn't sound logical.
Q. I am asking you, you knew the man.
A. I wish I did know the man. I thought I did but apparently I didn't.
Q. From what you knew, would he turn down a job for more money?
A. To tell the truth, we were very poor and I think a better offer of a job would probably be more likely he would take.
Q. Did he ever indicate to you he could have had a job-
A. Unless he didn't like the person maybe, he would not.
Q. Did he ever indicate to you he could have had another job which would have paid more than the job at the Texas School Book Depository?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did he like photography?
A. I don't think so. That is a very expensive hobby.
Q. To your knowledge, did he own-will, did he own a camera?
A. I really don't remember.
Q. Did he own any kind of--
A. I remember in Russia, he took pictures. It was our camera or somebody's camera but I know he was taking pictures. I do believe it was our camera because he was carrying it with him.
Q. When you lived in Texas did he own a camera?
A. I don't recall but, according to some pictures we had he might have because he had some pictures that were taken recently, I mean during our living there. I do believe he probably had. But I would not recognize the camera. If somebody said was that yours, I would not claim it.
Q. Did he ever to your knowledge have any photography equipment, like developing or other photography equipment?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember anything?
A. I don't remember. What would that include?
Q. I mean any kind of equipment that would relatek to photography other than a camera, for example, equipment so he could develop film, anything like that?
A. I don't know anything about photography.
Q. Did he have any kind of equipment that you ever saw and-
A. Didn't he work once with some kinds of photography? He could use their equipment.
Q. I can't answer the question. I have to ask you the questions.
A. Oh, I am sorry about that.
Q. Did he ever have possession of any equipment for developing film that you know of?
A. I can honestly say I do not remember.
Q. I want to mark these two photographs. On the back of the first one, which I would ask be marked JFK committee exhibit No. 1, it says in the bottom right-hand corner copy from the National Archives, records group No. 272, under that it says CE-133B. I will ask that be marked JFK exhibit No. 1. (The above referred to photograph was marked JFK committee exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
Q. New, this second picture that I will ask to be marked says copy from the National Archives, record group No. 272, CE-133. I would ask that this be marked JFK committee exhibit No. 2. (The above referred to photograph was marked JFK committee exhibit No. 2 for identification.)
By Mr. KLEIN:
Q. I will show you those two photographs which are marked JFK exhibit No. 1 and exhibit No. 2, do you recognize those two photographs?
A. I sure do. I have seen them many times.
Q. What are they?
A. That is the pictures that I took.
Q. What do you recall as far as the circumstances leaking up to you taking these pictures and when you actually took them and what happened?
A. I do believe it was a weekend and he asked me to take a picture of him and I refused because I don't know how to take pictures. That is the only pictures I ever took in my whole life. So we argued over it and I thought the pose, or whatever he was wearing was just horrible, but he insisted that I just click, just push the button and I believe I did it twice and that was it. I do not know whether he developed them, at home or somewhere else, I have no idea.
Q. What is he wearing in those photographs and what is he holding?
A. What was a surprise for me was for him to hold his rifle and a pamphlet, some kind of newspaper. It puzzled me, it was a ridiculous way to pose for a picture.
Q. Does he also have a pistol in his arm?
A. I don't see that, it looks like it-yes, I see now.
Q. And you recall testifying about these same two photographs when you testified to the Warren Commission?
A. Yes; I remember them asking if I ever took the pictures and I had completely forgotten because it was only once in my life and I didn't know who to take pictures. Yes, when they showed me that, yes, I did take the pictures.
Q. The camera you took them on, was that Lee Harvey Oswald's camera?
A. I believe so.
Q. Was it the same one he had in Russia or a different one, do you know?
A. I don't know, but I do believe it could be the same.
Q. What did he tell you to do with the camera as far as taking the pictures?
A. He just told me which button to push and I did.
Q. Did you hold it up to your eye and look through the viewer to take the picture?
Q. And after you took the picture what did you do after you took the first picture?
A. I went into the house and did things I had to attend to.
Q. How many pictures did you take?
A. I think I took two.
Q. When you took the first picture you held it up to your eye?
A. Yes; that is what I recall.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I believe he did something with it and told me to push it again.
Q. The first time you pushed it down to take the picture?
Q. And the first time, what happened before you took the second picture?
A. He changed his pose.
Q. What I am getting at is, did you give the camera to him so he would move the film forward or did you do that?
A. He did that.
Q. So you took the picture and handed the camera to him?
Q. What did he do?
A. He said, "Once again," and I did it again.
Q. So he have you back the camera?
A. For the second time; yes.
Q. Did he put the rifle down?
A. You see, that is the way I remember it.
Q. Did he put the rifle down on the ground between--
A. I don't remember. I was so annoyed with all this procedure so the sooner I could get through, the better, so I don't recollect.
Q. But you do remember taking the picture?
A. Yes; I am the one who took the picture and the weather was right.
Q. What did you say?
A. Somebody speculated the picture couldn't be taken; the weather was wrong.
Q. I am not interested in what people speculated.
A. There is nobody to blame for it but me.
Q. When you took the first picture and you gave him the camera, did you walk over to him and give him the camera or did he walk over to you?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Are these the only two pictures you ever took in your life at least up to that time?
Q. Have you taken any pictures since then?
A. I try at home, to photograph the kids at home with a Poloroid camera. They didn't come out right.
Q. When you took the picture did he tell you to hold your hands steady?
Q. Did you try to do that?
Q. After you took the two pictures-were there just two that you took?
A. Yes; as far as I remember.
Q. When you say as far as you remember, could there have been more than you took?
A. I don't think so. You mean the same day, if that is the only pictures?
Q. The same day at the same time you sure you only took two?
A. I remember I clicked the thing twice. If it was four times or six times, I don't have any more pictures to prove it. I remember definitely two.
Q. Could it have been more than two?
A. If it could be more, I would tell you I remember, it was four times or a whole hour.
Q. I am asking are you sure it was two or are you not sure, or it was at least two?
A. At least two. I am not sure because I do not remember all the details. I remember definitely two and it wasn't clothers changing and another session.
Q. What I am getting at is are you sure you didn't take three, for example?
A. No; I am not sure.
Q. Do you know what he did with the film after these pictures were taken?
A. No; I don't.
Q. Did there come a time when he showed you photographs? In other words, when he had the film developed and showed you the photographs?
A. I really don't remember that. He probably did.
Q. You don't remember if he ever showed them to you?
A. There is a lot of things I don't remember by now.
Q. I am just asking, I am not saying you should or shouldn't remember, I am just trying to clarify what you are saying. Are you saying you don't know if you ever saw these pictures while he was alive and you were with him?
A. Right now it is not clear in my memory. I have seen the pictures so many times, I don't know if it was the Warren Commission report, the news media, or I saw them at the apartment.
Q. You are not sure when you first saw the pictures?
A. I am not sure.
Q. Do you know if you ever saw them in his presence, that is Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. I do not remember right now. But I did, in the testimony before the warren commission, if I said I did, I did.
Q. But do you have any recollection now?
A. No; I don't
Q. Do you have any recollection of him ever saying anything about these particular poses or the photographs?
A. Let me turn back what strikes my memories, George de Mohrenschildt came--I am not trying to confuse you, you know, give you a false statement. I try to get my memory to go. What strikes me, I think I was surprised that he showed pictures to George de Mohrenschildt because I thought the rifle and the gun, first of all I was always against it so, if in my memory I remember being surprised at him showing pictures like that to George, so apparently I saw them at the apartment.
Q. You remember him showin the pictures to George?
A. Something strikes my memory that how dare he show pictures like that to a friend.
Q. Would you think about it for a few moments and tell me if you can remember anything else about him showing either or both of these photographs to George de Mohrenschildt?
A. I don't want to cast shadows on somebody that is maybe innocent and comments they maybe did not make.
Q. I am not asking you to say anything good or bad about Mr. De Mohrenschildt, just simply tell me if you remember that particular incident, him showing these pictures to George de Mohrenschildt.
A. It is so hard to dig in your memory 13 years ago.
Q. Take your time.
A. I vaguely remember because it still strikes my memory it surprised me that he showed them to him, so apparently it was at the apartment.
Q. When he was arrested and you spoke to him at the jail, did he say anything about these photographs?
Q. May I be excused for a second?
A. At this time it is approximately 5 minutes after 12, and at the request of Mrs. Porter we will take a break for a few minutes. (A short recess was taken)
By Mr. KLEIN:
Q. I is now approximately 10 minutes after 12. I didn't speak to you at all during the break, did I?
A. No; I didn't see you during the break.
Q. You left the room?
Q. The same people are present, Clifford Fenton, Mrs, McGrath, myself, and you, you being Marina Oswald Porter. When you took that break I was asking you some questions about these two photographs which we marked JFK exhibit 1 and JFK exhibit 2. I just wanted to clarify one thing. You said that Lee Harvey Oswald was the one who moved the film forward after you took the first picture?
A. Yes; I did.
Q. Do you recall exactly what happened? You snapped the first picture; did you give him the camera at the point?
A. I don't remember. I think I did. I probably did because I don't know what to do with it and he insisted on the second take so he had to do whatever had to be done with the camera.
Q. So you didn't.
A. I didn't know the procedure to take one picture from the other.
Q. So to move it forward, you must have given him the camera; is that right?
Q. Do you recall whether you were standing in the same place when you took both of these pictures?
A. I think I was.
Q. What is the address where these pictures were taken?
A. I don't know.
Q. Where was it?
A. It is in Dallas. I think it is the Oak Leaf area.
Q. You were also telling us that you remember that he showed one or both of these photographs to George de Mohrenschildt; is that right?
A. I vaguely remember or try to remember.
Q. Do you remember anything about that, what was said, who was present?
A. I do not remember what was said but I believe George and G-E-A-N-E-A, his wife, were there.
Q. What did you say?
A. I am trying to clear my memory. I do not remember the details of the conversation, but why I think I remember this incident was I was surprised at him showing these pictures to George.
Q. Do you recall anything he said to George when he showed them to him?
A. No; I don't.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of what happened to the originals of these photographs?
A. I assume the Warren Commission or FBI or police have them.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of what happened to them after Lee Oswald had them developed?
A. What happened to them?
Q. What he did with them.
A. He probably kept them in his closet where he kept all his junk.
Q. Do you know that or are you just guessing?
A. I am just guessing because I didn't have them among my things or anywhere around, lying around the living room or bedroom.
Q. To your knowledge, were any copies make of these photographs before the assassination?
A. No; I don't. I can see the position of his hands are changed.
Q. Do you know whether Lee Harvey Oswald might have given a copy of this photograph to anybody?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he ever speak to you about these photographs at any time after taking them?
A. No. What was there to talk about?
Q. And you never had a copy of either of these photographs?
A. Apparently they were in the apartment.
Q. I am saying did you have the original or a copy of these photographs before the assassination?
A. Apparently they were at the apartment.
Q. I am saying personally--
A. Me as a memento, no.
Q. Did you ever possess a copy of these photographs, have it in your possession?
A. For me to keep?
A. Not that I remember. I wasn't that enthused about these pictures. Q. Did you ever write anything on the back of either the original or a copy of one of these photographs?
Q. Did you ever write a note or anything to George de Mohrenschildt on the back of the original or a copy?
Q. Are you sure of that?
Q. Who had the money in your family?
Q. Who possessed it?
A. He did.
Q. He possessed it?
Q. To your knowledge did he ever come up with money that was unaccounted for, you know, all of a sudden he had more money than he should have?
A. He just gave me a grocery allowance; that is all I had.
Q. Were you aware of how much money he had at any time?
A. No; it is not my habit to go and check through somebody's pockets. I knew there was some money he tried to save but I never went and tried to count, unless he told me to.
Q. Did you ever see him with an amount of money or did he give you an amount of money and you wondered where did he get that much money?
Q. Do you recall that when you left Moscow that he sighned a promissory note to the U.S. Embassy there for $435?
A. He told me about it, that he had to borrow money from the Government.
Q. He paid that back; is that correct?
A. To my knowledge he did.
Q. Are you aware that he paid $10 a month for a number of months but then in December 1962 he paid $190?
A. No; I don't know about that. I know he paid little by little by little. Anyway, we had to save for it to pay it.
Q. Are you aware of that, that he paid $190 at one time?
Q. Then January 9, 1963, about a month later from December 11, 1962, a month later he paid $100?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Then January 29, 1963, 20 days later, he paid $106?
A. I am not aware of that.
Q. Does it surprise you from a period of December 11, 1962, to January 29, 1963, which is approximately 1 1/2 months, he was able to pay-
A. Does it surprise me right now?
Q. Almost $400. Does it surprise you that he could pay almost $400 in 1 1/2 months?
Q. Is this the first time that you ever learned about it, right now?
Q. Do you have any idea how he could have come up with that much money?f
Q. Did he ever mention to you paying off this note?
A. I have just little peanuts he gave to me. How much was left I don't know.
Q. Does this seem like a lot of money for him to pay off in a month and a half?
Q. From your knowledge of his finances?
A. Yes. How much did he make per week, do you know?
Q. Do you know how much he made per week?
A. He told me like $55 a weed, then another job was $65 a week; that is what I remember.
Q. Now, if that was his salary, you don't have any knowledge of how he came up with the sums I just mentioned?
A. No; I don't remember anybody giving him the money or he had an extra job where he earned the money. I could guess maybe his brother lent it to him, the money to pay the debt.
Q. If he would have had an extra job, would it be fair to say you would have known about that?
Q. Do you think it would be possible to have an extra job without your knowing about it?
A. No, because then he would have to come later from work than he would come. If he had na extra job, he would let me know.
Q. So you would have known if he had an extra job?
A. Yes. His brother was very helpful, so that could be the source of his extra money.
Q. Did your husband ever mention the name Hunt; H-U-N-T ?
Q. Are you sure?
A. Yes. Right now I am sure, if I said before than maybe I just don't remember the name.
Q. Did you ever hear about a letter-withdraw that.
A. That he supposedly wrote?
Q. I don't want to hear what the media may have said, I want to know if you have any knowledge of him writing a letter to anybody hamed Hunt?
Q. Did he write many letters to people?
Q. Did you ever see him writing a letter to anybody?
A. To his mother while we were in Russia.
Q. Other than in Russia?
A. He wrote to our friends in Russia.
Q. Did he enjoy writing?
A. Yes; I think so.
Q. When you met him in Russia, what kind of work was he doing?
A. He was working at a radio factory. It is something equivalent to our Texas Instruments right here.
Q. What did he do in particular, do you know?
A. I know it was a very plain job. Some kind of mechanical job.
Q. Is it correct that when you testified to the Warren Commission you said that he was living in an apartment in Russia and that you had always dreamed about that particular apartment?
Q. How did you suppose he had enough income to pay the rent for that apartment?
A. In Russia you don't pay as much for your apartment, you pay only a certain portion of your salary. If you make $400, you pay $40 for the same apartment, if you make $600, you pay $60.
Q. It was not unusual he could afford that apartment?
A. No. It was unusual for young men without family to live in an apartment like that, but they usually granted better positions for a foreigner in Russia.
Q. Was it unusual for single foreigner to live in an apartment like that?
A. No, it was not unusual for a single foreigner but, if he was Russian, he would not live in an apartment like that.
Q. Did he have many Russian friends?
Q. Do you remember his closest friends?
A. I remember one name-there was one young man who visited us quite often-maybe you can help me to remember the name, I don't remember.
Q. I don't have the name.
A. All the names I mentioned in the Warren Commission. He had one that I don't think I ever met, maybe once, or maybe never met, but he mentioned him, that he spoke to him at work, then one that visited us. Then he had-we had close friends that I met through him, Mr. Ziger.
Q. Could you spell that as best you could?
A. Z-I-G-E-R. Mr. Ziger.
Q. This is a friend--
A. They were immigrants from Argentina.
Q. He knew them in the United States?
A. He knew them before and through him I met them.
Q. In Russia?
Q. Did he correspond with any people in Russia after coming with you to the United States?
A. I think so.
Q. Did he write them letters?
Q. Did they write him letters?
A. I do believe we received some mail.
Q. Do you know what happened to those letters?
A. No; I wrote some of my friends and I got answers but, after all this happened, my letters never go through.
Q. I am not as much interested right now in your letters, I want to know did he write letters to his friends in Russia?
Q. Do you recall the names of any people who he wrote ot or who wrote him?
A. I think it is the same friends that we had before, I have fort the names.
Q. Did he ever say anything about these letters that he received from them or what he said to them?
A. It was just a friendly contact and, of course, we discussed it when we crceived the letters back.
Q. Were you allowed to read the letters he received?
A. They were written in Russian language.
Q. You speak Russian, so did he show the letters to you or just tell you about them?
Q. He showed you the letters?
A. Yes; but I don't remember what they were about or who from, it wasn't anything so important.
Q. Are you now a citizen of the United States?
A. I am not. I would love to be.
Q. Is there a reason why you are not at this time?
A. The only reason is my own, because I do not take the time to study the Constitution and keep up with the politics, up to date, and with a busy household you don't have time really to sit down and study and I don't want to fail the exams, it is very embarrassing.
Q. Has anybody ever indicated to you that you couldn't become a citizen?
A. I don't believe-in the earlier testimonies to the FBI sometimes when I was very difficult and didn't want to answer the questions, sometimes it has come up, "Well, would you like to live in this country?" I felt it was a little threat. I didn't know if I had a constitutional right to anything then.
Q. You testified about that to the Warren Commission?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Since you testified before the warren commission has anybody else ever made that same suggestion to you?
Q. You are familiar with Pricilla Johnson?
Q. How do you know her?
A. Oh, I met her when she came here with the offer to write a book about my life and we worked for quite a few months together. I gave her all the information that she needed. That was 13 years ago.
Q. When did you first meet her?
A. Thirteen years ago, I don't remember the exact date.
A. She--I believe she came to my house.
Q. In Russia?
A. No; right here.
Q. In Texas?
Q. Why did she come, what was the purpose?
A. I had many offers from differnt writers to write the book and I didn't think it was right for me to do so. I was embarrassed. She keep sending telegrams and telephone calls, she would like to meet me and we talk things over. I still refused. Finally, later on she told me she decided to see me in person and, when we met, I liked her, so agreed. There was an agreement between us, I gave her information so she could write a book.
Q. Was it the first time you ever met her or saw her after the assassination?
Q. Did she ever indicate to you she had met your husband?
Q. What did she say?
A. She said when she worked in Russia for some magazine, she worked there for a year or two, and she would like to have an interview with Lee, but he granted it ot another lady reporter instead of her. She spoke but full Russian, so that was another point that helped me to make up my mink she is the right person.
Q. This book that is coming out, I believe you have a book coming out next month?
Q. Is there anything in that book which relates to Lee Harvey Oswald or to the assassination of the President which you have not told the Warren commission and which you have not told me? What I mean is something about Lee Harvey Oswald which relates to the assassination of the President?
A. I don't know, I didn't read the book.
Q. You know what you told Priscilla Johnson.
A. I told her everything I know. I told everything I know to the Warren Commission.
Q. I am saying in sitting down for these many months and telling her everything you know, did you come across anything that might have popped into your mind you might have forgotten about when you were talking about the book?
A. I would have to read the book, the Warren Commission report and see if I forgot to put it there, things like that.
Q. Just give me 1 moment. I asked you before whether you had any contacts since the assassination with any U.S. Government agency. Have you had any contacts since the assassination with any foreign, with any agencies of any foreign governments.
Q. Had you had any contacts since coming to the United States with Lee Harvey Oswald, were you ever contacted by any agency of the Soviet Government?
Q. Were you ever contacted by any agent of the Cuban Government?
Q. You testified before the Warren Commission that the name Hidell was used because it rhymed with Fidel?
A. I assumed that.
Q. You assumed that?
A. I think we discussed that and I just jokingly made that, "Because it is Fidel" and he said yes.
Q. Fore the record, somebody just opened the door and asked if somebody else was here, and who was not here. That was a 1-moment interruption. On these two pictures I have shown to you, committee exhibit 1 and committee exhibit 2, can you give us an estimate, the best you can, how much time elapsed between the time the first picture was taken and the second picture was taken?
A. No; I can't.
Q. Did you know how much a minute is?
A. OK, it could be 5 minutes. I don't know how long it takes to do whatever is supposed to be done.
Q. You don't have any idea how long it took?
Q. Have you ever taken-you said you have tried to take pictures since this time of your children, is that right?
Q. When you took pictures, did you ever move the film forward?
A. No; I have a Polaroid camera, that is the only one I can use. I don't believe how many pictured I ruined.
Q. Do you recall when you took these photographs about how far away from him you were standing when you took it?
A. I know the little yard, the back yard wasn't very big. No; I don't know in feet.
Q. Let me say this, the distance I am standing away from you now, do you think this was more or less than when you took those photographs?
A. I wouldn't speculate. I don't know how many feet.
Q. You are just not sure?
A. No. The place still exists, you can measure it. I think it exists.
Q. The camera that you took the photographs with, do you know what happened to that camera?
Q. Do you know where he bought the camera?
A. No. I think that that is the camera he brought with him from America and kept it in Russia and brought it back.
Q. Do you know what happened to it?
A. When they confiscated everything, they took it. I don't know.
Q. Were there any other photographs you possessed that were taken with that camera?
A. I don't possess anything anymore, everything was confiscated, so if I have pictures of my children, or whatever there were, they are from Archives, everything was there.
Q. Were there any other pictures taken from you that were taken with the same camera?
Q. What kind?
A. I don't know if it was the same camera, I assume it was that one.
Q. Did you ever see him with any other camera?
A. No. I do believe the pictures were taken in Russia of our friends, or my baby, or me with that same camera, but it is for experts to figure it out if it is the same camera.
Q. And those pictures you believe the Archives have?
A. Yes. i do not remember him purchasing a new camera in the United States.
Q. This camera, do you recall whether to take pictures with this camera, you would look down into the viewfinder or whether you would hold the camera up to your eye and look straight ahead?
A. I just recall I think it is straight.
Q. You would put the camera up by your eye?f
Q. Do you remember what color the camera was?
A. I think it was black.
Q. Do you remember anything else about it?
A. Not the name; no. But again, since I am not expert with the camera, that is what I remember, I think?
Q. As I told you when we began, the entire statement has been taken down on that stenotype machine. Mrs. McGrath is going to transcribe the statement and it will be typed out so that you or anybody can read it.
A. Will that be a matter of public record?
Q. When it is typed out, it will be sent, an original copy will be sent to you and you will be asked to read everything and after you read everything, if it is correct, if it is correctly transcribed, what you said today, you will be asked to sigh and verify-there will be a little form which you would be asked to sign saying that transcript is fair and accurate account of your statement. You will be given a copy to keep of the statement.
Q. Then when you sign it your will send back the signed statement that it is accurate. Now, if it is not an accurate account, that is, if when you read it there is something in there which is incorrect, that is something that you didn't say, there is an error, then I will ask you to call me up. You have my phone number and you can call me collect. What will have to happen is that we will go back before a magistrate, just like the gentleman who swore you in and you will have to swear to the changes.
Q. If you call me I will arrange this if there are any inaccuracies in the transcript. Now, at this point, is there anything that you would like to say at all?
A. Yes, may I ask you a question?
A. For my own curiosity, what did you try to establish, a lost camera or that two cameras took the pictures?
Q. No; as I stated at the very, very beginning, we have read your testimony from the Warren Commission report and in some areas either a particular subject matter was not discussed, or it was discussed, it was not discussed in the detail we would have liked to have seen it discussed. It was in these areas, a number of them, I hoped to have asked you questions to clarify and get more information in these areas which we-
A. OK but, since you dwelled so long on the subject, what detail did you try to establish?
Q. I wasn't trying to establish anything, simply to try to get as much information as I could about certain points which were of interest to us, not a question of establishing simply trying to get--
A. I don't see how many feet away would make any difference.
Q. Just trying to get as much information as I could in certain subject areas, one was the photographs, others which came up during the course of the interrogation.
A. I am just curious whether somebody switched.
Q. If there is nothing further, then thank you very much. The time is now approximately 12:47 p.m. and that is the end of the statement.
A. Thank you. That was short.
(Whereupon, at 12:47 p.m., the hearing was concluded)
CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER
I, Jewel E. McGrath, shortand reporter, do hereby certify that the testimony of the witness which appears in the foregoing deposition was taken by me in shortand and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction, that said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, or financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
Jewel E. McGrath _______________________
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 9, 1978 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATION,
Deposition of Marina Oswald Porter called for examination by counsel for the committee, pursuant ot notice, in the offices of the committee, House Annex No. 2, Third and D Streets SW., Washington, D.C., beginning at 9:30 a.m., before Annabelle Short, a notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present of behalf of the respective parties:
For the committee: James Wolf, counsel; Gary Cornwell, deputy chief counsel; Mrs. Caryl Emanuel, administrative assistant to Mr. Wolf; Ms. Surell Brady, staff; James McDonald, counsel; and James M. Leahy, National Archives.
For the witness: James Hamilton, counsel.
Mr. WOLF. It should be noted the time now is 9:30 and it is August 9, 1978. We are in the offices of the House Select Committee on Assassinations in Washington, D.C., in the office of the deputy chief counsel, Gary Cornwell. Present at the time are Gary cornwell, James Wolf, Surell Brady, members of the select committee staff, James Hamilton, and Marina Oswald Porter.
Mr. HAMILTON. May I make a correction to that?
Mr. WOLF. Surely.
Mr. HAMILTON. I believe Mrs. Porter's name now is Mrs. Kenneth Porter or Mrs. Marina Porter.
Mr. WOLF. I would ask at the current time that the court reporter administer an oath to Mrs. Porter. (Whereupon, Marina Porter was called as a witness by the committee and, having been first duly sworn by the notary public, was examined and testified as follows:)
Mr. WOLF. Mr. Hamilton, I believe I have previously given you copies of the committee's rules and the committee resolutions, is that correct?
Mr. HAMILTON. That is correct.
DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. porter, you are not under a subpena for the giving of the statement, is that correct?
A. That is right.
Q. I would ask that all your responses that you gove today be from your present memory and not from what has been written in the literature since 1963. If you have any question, if you don't understand any question I pose, I would ask that you just state that on the record and I will try and clarify my question. You have previously given the committee one deposition and the same procedure will be followed with this. We will give you a copy of this deposition and ask you to read it and verify it and then return it to us. At that time we will give you a copy of the deposition for your permanent records. Do you understand?
Q. For the record I should say that pursuant to the committee rules I have been designated by the committee as a counsel authorized to take statements under oath.
Mrs. Porter, what was the first time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. It was in Minsk, Russia, in 1960-I don't remember exactly, 1961 or 1962.
Q. What were the circumstances of that meeting?
A. I met him at a dance. I was a medical school event.
Q. How did you happen to go to that dance?f
A. I was invited by a student from the medical school to attend and I was introduced to Lee by a mutual friend.
Q. Who was the friend that introduced you?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Could his name have been Yure Mereginsky? (phonetic) I could be.
Q. do you recall that name?
A. I recall the name.
Q. Who was the individual?
A. As far as i remember right now he knew Lee and he was introduced to me first and then he introduced Lee to me.
Q. You did not know him before that dance?
Q. Do you remember who was the person who introduced you to Yuri?
A. no, I don't.
Q. What did Yure Mereginsky (phonetic) do?
A. Well, young people met sometimes in the street and talked or invited you to their house, yes.
Q. What types of things did you do together with him?
A. We usually talked or listened to the music or just strolled in the street or in the park.
Q. Do you recall any discussions you had with him about what topics you talked about?
A. Well, since Lee was an American, of course young people were very interested in life in other foreign countries so that was usually the discussion, about how is the life in America.
Q. Was he a native of Minsk?
A. I don't know.
Q. He was a student though?
A. He was living in Minsk at the time.
Q. How did he introduce you to Lee?
A. He introduced him as Alex Oswald, a friend of his.
Q. A friend of his?
Q. Did he say how he knew Lee?
A. Not at the moment of introduction.
Q. Did he later say how he knew lee?
A. I do not recall.
Q. Was Lee a close friend of his or was he a casual acquaintance?
A. Just casual.
Q. Did Lee spend a lot of time with him when you were not present that you know of?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. Did Lee discuss him frequently?
A. His name was mentioned occasionally if he would bump into him sometime or visit him.
Q. What would Lee saw about him when he was discussing him?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you how he became knowledgable in obtaining a visa to get into Russia?
A. He told me that he entered Finland as a tourist and went to the Russian Embassy and asked them for a tourist visa and they granted it and then he decided to stay.
Q. He asked the Russian Embassy in Finland for a tourist visa?
A. That is what he told me.
Q. Did he go directly to Russia from Finland?
A. I assume he did.
Q. Have you heard that he went from Finland to London prior to going to Russia?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You never heard that before?
A. If I heard it, I don't remember right now.
Q. Lee never discussed with you staying in London at any time during his travels?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you how he knew the procedures for somebody who was an American to defect once they got into Russia?
A. Well, he did not discuss procedure in detail like you would like me to answer. Like the procedure, I do not know but he said when he was staying in Russia as a tourist they did not permit him to stay any longer so he said that he just give up his citizenship in order to stay.
Q. Did you ask him how he decided what steps to take at that time?
A. Pardon me?
Q. Did you ask him subsequently how did he know what to do?
A. Well, not really.
Q. Did he ever talk to you about it?
A. He probably did.
Q. What did he say to you about it?
A. Well, I guess there is lots of redtape in Russia. You just have to go visit them and big with them and plead with them.
Q. That was to obtain Russian citizenship?
A. Yes; there are lots of official papers to fill out.
Q. If you were a tourist in Russia, would you know what department or what office to go to to try to obtain Russian citizenship?
A. I don't know.
Q. Is that generally known?
A. I would not think so.
Q. Excuse me?
A. I don't think so. I assume that you go to the Special Ministry of Internal Affairs or Foreign Affairs, something like that.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you his trips to the American Embassy when he was trying to defect?
A. A little bit.
Q. What did he say about them?
A. Well, I cannot tell you in detail. He had a discussion with the American Ambassador or representative of the American Government.
Q. What did he say about his discussions with the American representative?
A. Well, he told him that he could like to stay and he said he just throwed the passport on the table in front of them and Excuse me. May I confer with my counsel?
Q. Surely. (At this point the witness conferred with counsel.)
A. After that he went to the Russian authorities and asked them for political asylum.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. That was after he had gone to the American Embassy?
A. That is what I recall right now.
Q. Did he mention to you the names of any of the Russian officials he dealt with?
A. Later on when I have to go through all this legal procedure to apply for my visa he told me the name of the man that he talked with before but I forget the name right now, but he told me that was the same man he talked to before.
Q. What was that man's position?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Do you know what office he was with?
A. No. It was very scary to go through all this, policemen standing outside.
Q. What did he say about the Soviet officials questioning him when he went to see that Soviet official?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you ask any questions about why he wanted to stay in Russia?
A. I don't know.
Q. When he discussed going to the American Embassy, what did he say about the attitude of the American official after he had thrown his passport down?
A. I don't recall what exactly he said.
Q. What were the names of the officials he met there?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't remember?
A. I don't remember. I did know at the time.
Q. Did Lee ever mention being asked questions by the secret police, the KGB?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Would that surprise you if he was asked questions by them?
Q. You would assume they would question him?
A. Well, I will assume, of course.
Q. Did Lee discuss with you his suicide atempt when he was trying to obtain Soviet citizenship?
Q. He never discussed that with you?
Q. When did that first come to your attention?
A. After the assassination.
Q. Did you ever notice the scar that he had on his wrist?
Q. Did you ask him how he obtained it?
A. I did and he said he didn't want to talk about it.
Q. Any you didn't ask him any further questions?
A. Well, I did a few times. I was curious, but it put him in a very bad mood or upset so I just dropped the subject.
Q. Did Lee ever tell you why he thought he was allowed to stay in the Soviet Union?
A. If he did, I don't remember right now.
Q. Why do you think he was allowed to stay in the soviet Union?
A. I really don't know. Maybe one of their good moods. You never know with Russians.
Q. After you met Lee at the dance for the first time, what was the next occasion that you saw him?
A. Well, it is so many years ago. I do believe he called me in the next few days.
Q. He called you?
Q. Did he call you on the phone?
Q. How did he obtain your phone number?
A. He asked me when he took me home after the dance and I have it to him.
Q. How often did you see Lee in the 2 to 3 weeks after that first dance? Did you meet him frequently?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What subject were discussed when you were the first starting to date him?
A. Oh, we went to the shows and we discussed friends, and I was asking him questions about America, of course.
Q. I did not hear.
A. I was asking questions about America, how the Americans live.
Q. What type of questions would you ask about America?
A. Well, about the schools and professions and the price of food and if it is pretty plentiful right here.
Mr. WOLF. For the record it should be noted that Mrs. Caryl Emanuel has just entered the room who is na administrative assistant to myself.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. After you were dating Lee, when was the first time that he discussed the possibility of marrying you?
A. Only a short time before we were married.
Q. Approximately how short a time was that?
A. A month and a half.
Q. What was your reaction the first time he discussed being married?
A. Pardon me?
Q. What was your reaction the first time he discussed getting married?
A. Well, I asked him, since he is American, would he have the desire or possibility to go back to the United States and he said no, he will be living in Russia.
Q. Is he the one who brought up the subject of marriage or did you bring it up?
A. Well, I really don't remember how things happened. It is so many years ago.
Q. At that time you were dating him quite frequently after a month's time?
Q. How soon after you first discussed getting married with Lee did you in fact get married?
A. We had to wait- I do not recall how many days or maybe a month, maybe a week--for permission to get married and then it was granted.
Q. Did you tell anybody of your decision to marry Lee prior to your application for marriage?
A. Of course I did. I had to ask my aunt and uncle if they object or not.
Q. What was their reaction?
A. Well, not a very pleasant one. My uncle told me I'm a big girl right now and if that is what I want he really was against it somewhat but he said even if he said no I will do it anyway so I might as well have his blessings.
Q. Which uncle was that?
A. Uncle Ilya.
Q. Were you living with your uncle at that time?
Q. What position did he hold?
A. Well, he was not a colonel yet. What is before that?
Mr. HAMILTON. A major.
The WITNESS A major, I guess.
Mr. HAMILTON. At least in the American Army.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. In the Soviet Army?
A. No; he was working for MVD.
Q. And what is that?
A. Minister of Internal Affairs.
Q. What activities did they engage in?
A. As far as I know, he was an engineer by profession.
Q. Did he have an important position if that organization?
A. I assume he did.
Q. What were his responsibilities?
A. I don't know. He would never discuss his job at home.
Q. Did Lee, apart from the times he went to obtain Soviet citizenship, ever approach the Government of any other occasions?
A. Say that again, please.
Q. Did Lee, apart from the time he applied for Soviet citizenship, ever approach the Government on any other occasions?
A. I don't know.
Q. How would he have obtained the apartment he was living in?
A. Well, they have him a job in Minsk and sent him to work at the radio factory and nearby it was a building where the employees of this factory were living.
Q. I think so.
Q. And ass the apartments in that building were the same size?
A. I don't know. I never visited anybody except the lady upstairs once and her apartment was similar to ours.
Q. Was Lee's apartment larger than most others due to the fact that he was a foreigner?
A. No; it was not larger but it was conpletely private, a kitchen and bath in the hall.
Q. Did all the people who worked in that factory have the same type of apartment?
A. I don't think so. I told you I have only been in one, but I assume from conversations it all depends on the size of your family.
Q. Was it unusual for Lee to have an apartment all by himself?
A. I think so. I was not unusual in terms of a foreigner to have privileges, but for a young man to have an apartment of his own in Russia is quite unusual.
Q. Do you think your Uncle Ilya helped you and Lee when you were trying to move back to America to facilitate your leaving the country?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Would he have been in the position of being able to do that?
A. I don't know. He was against me leaving for America.
Q. But he had told you that he would not put himself in your way?
A. No; he didn't say that. He got angry with me and he just stayed out of it completely except on a few occasions he told me what a foolish thing I was doing.
Q. Did Lee own a rifle when you were living in Minsk?
A. I think so.
Q. What type of rifle was that?
A. I don't know anything about rifles.
Q. Did you ever see him use the rifle?
Q. Where did you see the rifle?
A. It was in the apartment and he told me that he bolonged to some kind of hunting club at work.
Q. Was this before or after you married him?
A. After I married him.
Q. So the rifle was in the apartment?
A. It was there; yes.
Q. Where in the apartment was it kept?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did Lee ever go hunting that you know of?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did he ever discuss hunting?
A. Well, when we were married he never went hunting but he said that he did go once with friends.
Q. What type of animal did he hunt?
A. Probably birds.
Q. Is it difficult to obtain a rifle in Russia?
A. It is illegal to possess a weapon in Russia. You have to have a permit, you have to be a policeman or some kind of military personnel or be a hunter.
Q. Is it difficult ot obtain a permit?
A. I don't know; I never tried.
Q. Did Lee have a permit for the gun?
Q. you have seen the permit?
Q. Do you know if he brought this rifle with him when he was returning to America?
A. I don't know.
Q. Who packed all your belongings when you made the decision to come back to America?
A. We both did.
Q. Was anything left behind in Russia?
A. yes, our furnishings.
Q. Who was that left with?
A. We sold it to people who were interested in buying it.
Q. Since you acquired a permit for the hun, Lee just could not leave the gun with somebody else; could he?
A. I don't know the procedure of it, what can be done.
Q. But you don't know what Lee did with the gun?
Q. Do you know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun?
Q. Could you describe the gun for us that he had there?
Q. Do you remember anything about it?
Q. It was definitely a rifle and not, for example, a handgun?
Q. It was long?
Q. Approximately how long?
A. Please don't ask me these questions. I cannot describe something that I don't have a recollection of it.
Q. But it was a long rifle or some sort?
A. I never measured it. It was a large object.
Q. Where were you working when you first met Lee?
A. I was working at the local hospital drugstore.
Q. What was the name of the hospital you were working at?
A. I think city Hospital No. 3.
Q. What were your responsibilities at that hospital?
A. I was a pharmacist. I was preparing prescriptions for the patients.
Q. How did you come to live in Minsk?
A. Well, I finished pharmacy school in Leningrad and I was assigned to a job.
Q. Who assigned you to the job?
A. The school officials usually assigned students where to go so I had the job in the city of Leningrad but then I have personal difficulties with my stepfather and I felt like I was in the way so since I had relatives in Minsk, I just bought the ticket and went there.
Q. When you went to Minsk did you already have a job lined up in Minsk?
A. No; I did not have a transfer or a job waiting for me there.
Q. Did you ask when you were working in Leningrad for them to obtain a job for you in Minsk?
Q. Why not?
A. I was not certain that I could have one . So with little connections and going from one office to another I got permission first to stay there. When you apply for a job you have to have permission to stay and it is difficult if you don't have one or the other. My aunt had connections.
Q. Which aunt is that?
A. It is another aunt. It is my mother's sister, Luba.
Q. Where was she living at that time?
A. She was living in Minsk with her husband in another apartment.
Q. How did you let her know you were coming?
A. Pardon me?
Q. How did you let her know you were coming? Did you phone them in advance or write in advance?
A. No; I just appeared at the doorstep and they were shocked.
Q. And you brought all of your belongings with you?
A. I didn't have very much to bring.
Q. You didn't intend returning to Leningrad though, did you?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Did you intend returning to Leningrad?
A. If I don't find a job I had to.
Mr. WOLF. We will now take a brief break while the court reporter swears in another witness in the adjoining room. (Whereupon, at 10:05 a.m., a recess was taken until 10:10 a.m.)
Mr. WOLF: The time is approximately 10:10 a.m., a recess was taken until 10:10 and the deposition will resume with all persons present except Caryl Emanuel at the present
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Do you know what type of engineer your uncle was?
A. He finished--just a minute, please. College of Forestry Engineering. Does that sound right?
Q. What type of things did he do for that company?
A. No, not a company.
Q. The organization.
A. He usually worked with whatever concerned wood. Then the kids in college have exams he usually grades their papers. He was not a teacher.
Q. Did you uncle assist you in obtaining a residence permit when you got to Minsk?
A. Yes, he did. Since I had to live with him he had to sign the papers that he has room for me in his apartment.
Q. Who did those papers go to?
A. I think it is like a police or militia station in the city.
Q. Did he speak to anybody about your staying there as well as signing the papers?
A. I had to go alone. I went alone. He just signed the papers.
Q. Did he call anybody on the phone, do you know?
A. I don't know.
Q. Shortly after you met Lee, Lee was taken to the hospital; is that correct?
Q. What hospital was he taken to?
A. Just a city hospital.
Q. And that was one where both foreigners and-
A. No, no, no. No foreigners. Just a regular hospital.
Q. I am saying both foreigners and people who live there regularly would be taken there?
A. I assume. Athere were only three or four hospitals in the city. You just go to the one you like.
Q. Did Lee participate in any political activity when he was in Minsk?
A. What do you call political activity?
Q. Did he attend meetings where politics was discussed?
Q. Did he listen to the radio when there were politicla discussions on?
Q. What type of commentary would he make about the political discussions?
A. He usually listened to BBC and Voice of America on the radio and tried to compare what is said on the radio and what the Russian newspaper printed.
Q. Did Lee make any attempt to join groups or organizations which were engaged in political activity?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. When you said before that Lee sought political asylum, what exactly did you mean by that?
A. Just what I said. You have to file under some kind of category and I guess if you ask for political asylum you get more protection or at least Russia maybe they give you a place to stay, I guess.
Q. Were you surprised when you were allowed to leave Russia?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Why were you surprised?
A. Oh, it is very unusual for a Russian citizen to leave the Soviet Union.
Q. Is that any Russian citizen?
A. Yes, unless you are a diplomat and you had permission to travel abroad.
Q. Did your uncle speak to anybody about your leaving the Soviet Union?
A. To whom do you mean?
Q. Any government officials who might have asked him about it.
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You were a member of what organizations when you were in Minsk?
A. I was more or less forced to become a member of the Komsomol organization. That is a youth organization. Prior to becoming a party member you do have to belong to this organization but no everybody who belongs becomes a party member.
Q. Did you want to become a Communist Party member?
A. Heavens no.
Q. How do you say you more or less forced to become a member?
A. Well, at work everybody belonged to a professional union and everybody belonged to this. Well, it is not really pressure put on but they ask you to fill out some application and things like that, so I filled out the application and I was accepted, I assume. I paid the dues but I never attended the meetings.
Q. You never went to one of their meetings?
Q. Did you remain a member of that until you left Minsk?
A. No. I got publicly discharged at one of the meetings; it was the only one I attended when they asked me to come and accused me of not ever attending and being a bad membe of the organization and i was not qualified.
Q. When was that?
A. That was after I was married to Lee.
Q. After you were married to Lee?
Q. Was your marriage to Lee discussed at that meeting?
A. Not at that particular meeting but I felt at work kind of a cold wind, you know. Not isolation but-I don't know how to describe it but I know that they did not very much approve of my marriage to a foreigner.
Q. In the book the Priccilla MacMillan Johnson has written called "Marina and Lee" you say the members warned you that Lee might be a spy.
A. It was an accusation like at the last meeting when they told me I could not be a member any more. I was just like confidential talk and during the lunch hour.
Q. What was your reaction?
Q. What was your reaction when they accused Lee of being a spy?
A. Well, I just really ignored it. It kind of upset me.
Q. It upset you?
Q. Did you discuss the possibility of living with a spy with your uncle?
A. It seems to me in Russia everybody keeps their ears open and are afraid of what the might say.
Mr. WOLF. For the record it should be noted that caryl Emmanuel has just reentered the room.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Was it common for members to be expelled from Komsomol?
A. No. Occasionally this happened when the members are-for example, when young people misbehaved themselves like the alcoholics or they have fits or are dishonest or things like that.
Q. On your entry visa to the United States you did to list that you were a member of Komsomol. Why is that?
A. Lee told me that it would be difficult for me if I listed any of the --excuse me. I did not phrase myself right. I don't know how to put it but anyway he told me that because Americans don't know what kind of organization it is the will probably think that maybe they will be against it so it is better for me not to like it. Actually I was only a member on a piece of paper. That is all.
Q. And at the meeting when you were expelled, was there a formal vote to expel you?
Q. What were the grounds listed for your expulsion?
A. I was not a desirable member.
Q. Why were you not a desirable member?
A. They said that I did not pay my dues, I didn't care for it, I am antisocial in my behavior.
Q. Did they ask you about your marriage to Lee in that meeting?
A. No. If they did, I do not recall.
Q. Was Lee present at that meeting?
Q. Was Lee's apartment characteristic of the apartments furnished to foreigners living in the Soviet Union? I did not have the experience with the apartments that foreigners occupy, so I cannot compare.
Q. Was he also given money by the Government?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Why was that?
A. I assume that is was typical of Russians to give compensation for the foreign resident, foreign citizen who lived there because maybe make them more comfortable to live in Russia.
Q. Do you know whether foreigners received money from the Government other than Lee?
Q. Do you know of any other foreigners who did not receive money
A. No. I didn't know many foreigners. I just knew Lee.
Q. You assumed that was common practice?
Q. While in Russia did you and Lee hear President Kennedy speak over the radio?
A. Well, I heard but I don't know what it was about because I did not speak English but Lee was listening to it and I was present in the room.
Q. Did you know who it was, who was speaking?
A. He told me; yes.
Q. What did Lee say at that time?
A. He was very proud of the new President of his country.
Q. Did Lee ever mention his experience in the Marines when you were living in Russia?
A. Only his Japanese girl friend that he mentioned.
Q. Who was that?
A. I don't remember her name.
Q. What did he say about her?
A. That she was very nice and that she was a very good cook and that she prepared special dishes for him, that he was pampered.
Q. Did Lee ever mention Governor Connally while you were living in Minsk?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. As far as I recall right now I think he wrote a letter to Mr. Connally asking for help to return to the United States and when the letter arrived it was a big large white envelope, I think, with the Connally picture on it as a stamp or anyway the picture of Mr. Connally on the envelope.
Q. You are saying Mr. Connally responded to the letter?
A. I assume it was because the letter was written in English so I know only Lee told me about it.
Q. And Lee told you that that was a picture of Governor Connally?
A. He said it was an advertisement because he will be running for some kind of office.
Q. What did Lee tell you the letter said?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Was Lee pleased or displeased about the letter?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss any other American officials apart from Governor Connally and President Kennedy when you were living in Russia?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you know how Lee acquired the rifle that we spoke about before that he had in Russia?
A. I do not know. I assume right now that when you become a member of this hunting group you have a permit to go and obtain a rifle somewhere. I have no idea whether you buy a rifle or they give it to you.
Q. Were they very expensive to buy?
A. I have no idea.
Q. When you and Lee were living together after you were married, did you assume that your apartment was bugged?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Why is that?
A. Well, even if you turn off all the electric appliances in the house, still this meter that is inside of the apartment, the electric meter, will be running very slowly but surely. I don't know if it has anything to do with it but we were afraid to talk. We would whisper.
Q. Did you discuss the Lee outside of the apartment that you thought it was bugged?
Q. Did he think it was bugged as well?
A. Sometimes we even spoke loudly, "Hey, would you like to listen to all the conversation?", something like that.
Q. What was Lee's reaction to what he thought was the bugging of the apartment?
A. Well, it was accepted. What can you do?
Q. Why did you think they were bugging your apartment, or were all the apartments bugged, do you think?
A. I don't think all the apartments were bugged.
Q. So why were they bugging the apartment that you and Lee lived in?
A. I really don't have the answer to that question but I assume because he was a foreigner and they didn't know much about him so they want to continue to keep an eye on him and that was the only way to do it.
Q. Was that the usual practice in Minsk, in Russia?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you and Lee think you were under any other types of surveillance?
A. We assumed that we were.
Q. You assumed that you were.
Q. Did you ever see any evidence of it?
A. No; but I heard gossips from mutual friends that sometimes there have been people assigned to follow somebody like a foreign tourist or something like that and you will never know who will be watching after you.
Q. What type of materials would Lee read during this period of time?
A. When he was in Russia?
A. Well, they have some foreign magazines that you can buy at the newsstand. I do believe it was a Life magazine then that was printed and he usually bought that. I think there was an English newspaper. He studied the Russian language and he read some Russian literature just for entertainment.
Q. What kinds of literature would it be?
A. Whatever was available at the house, whatever novel may be popular at this time.
Q. Did he read about politics at this time in novels?
A. I don't recall. Maybe historical books about Russian history.
Q. What friends of Lee's do you recall while you were there?
A. Right now none of them but if you mentioned the names I might recall.
Q. Even not specific names. Did he have many friends?
A. Well, Pavel Golovachev.
Q. Who was that?
A. When he introduced me he said he is his closest friend. He met him before he met me. He was one of the first men that he met in Minsk and he did speak English and it was good for him to practice talking with Lee.
Q. Was he a native of Minsk?
A. He was living there at the time. When you say native--
Q. Was he Russian?
A. He was born there.
Q. Do you know if he was born in Minsk?
A. I don't know.
Q. But he was living there at that time?
Q. What other friends of Lee's did you meet?
A. One immigrant family from Argentina, Mr. and Mrs. Ziger and their two daughters.
Q. How did Lee know them?
A. Mr. Ziger was an engineer at the same radio factory that Lee was working at.
Q. And he was from Argentina, you say?
A. He was formerly, I think, a Polish Jew and the lived in Argentina for over 20 years, I believe. They immigrated long age and their daughters were born there and they got homesick so they asked to return to their native country. After World War II this part of Poland became part of Russia. All their relatives were in Poland and they were very lonely and they tried to go back to Argentina but the were never granted a permit.
Q. Did Lee discuss politics with him?
A. Well, by the time I met Ziger, Lee was just as bitter about living in Minsk as they were so they had lots of things in common. Of course they discussed politics.
Q. What other friends of Lee's did you meet?
A. Well, none that I remember any more.
Q. Did you remember any Cuban students who were living in Minsk?
A. Yes; I never met them personally but you can recognize the Cubans because the Russians are quite fair complexioned and they speak Spanish. You can see them in the street because the were exchange students from Cuba.
Q. Did Lee have friends among the Cuban students?
A. He might have.
Q. Did he ever speak to you about them?
A. I don't recall right now but I think he met a few of them.
Q. Do you recall a Cuban student by the name of Alfred?
A. No; what was his name?
A. That is not a Cuban name, is it?
Q. I don't know the last name. Did he ever express his views about the Cuban students in general terms?
A. In general terms?
A. Well, he said that it is pretty cold right here, a severe Russian winter, and that they are homesick, they miss their country. The had been sent to this country to study but the were not very pleased on account of it was not as free as even in their country.
Q. Where would Lee meet these Cuban students?
A. Well, in Russia you don't have to have a special meeting place; you can just talk to people in the park, on the street, on the bench.
Q. Were any of them working at the factory he worked at or were they just students?
A. I think they were just students.
Q. So it would not be at the factory?
A. I don't know if any of them worked in the factory.
Q. Did Lee know a Marvin Kantor?
A. Who was he?
Q. He was an American student at that time living in Minsk.
A. Living in Minsk? No.
Q. Never heard the name?
A. No. I thought he was the only American there.
Q. May have been living in Minsk. Do you know Muhammad Reggab?
A. Pardon me. Would you repeat the name?
Q. Reggab, R-e-g-g-a-b. First name Muhammad. He was also a student allegedly living in Minsk at that time.
Q. The name is familiar with you?
Q. What hobbies did lee engage in when you were living in Minsk?
A. Mostly reading, went boating in the summertime, picnicking. That is not a hobby, just recreation.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you his work at the radio factory?
A. Yes he did, and he didn't like it. he had lots of complaints about it.
Q. What did he complain about it?
A. He thought he was better than his job.
Q. What did he say he could do about that?
A. I don't recall him saying anything but complaining.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you his being in touch with the police prior to his defection, the Russian police or the KGB, prior to his going to the American Embassy?
Q. Did Lee discuss with you his offer to give secrets to the Russian Government?
Q. Have you heard that it has been alleged that he offered to gove military secrets to the Russian Government?
A. Well, I read in the newspapers lots of speculations. How true that is I don't know.
Q. But he never discussed that with you?
Q. What else did Lee tell you about his activities when he was in Japan?
A. Not much. He never talked much about his experiences in Japan. Well, he told me once, and later on I found out it was a fib, that he was shot in some kind of military activities he said.
Q. When did he tell you that?
A. I don't remember the day.
Q. Why did he tell you that? How did it come up?
A. I don't know. Probably just to show what a brave soldier he was.
Q. How did you find out it was a lie?
A. After he died and I read about it.
Q. You didn't know before that?
Q. Did Lee mention any other people he knew in Japan besides that one girl you have told us about?
Q. Did he talk about his friends in the Marines?
Q. Did he ever discuss the kind of work he did in Japan with the Marines?
A. Not with me.
Q. Did Lee ever mention meeting with any Russians when he was living in Japan?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did he ever discuss Russian agents who were working in Japan?
Q. Did Lee ever discuss the U-2 airplane with you?
A. No. Is that an American plane or Russian?
Q. Are you familiar with the U-2 which was the plane that was shot down over Russia?
A. I heard about it at the time.
Q. You heard about it at the time.
A. Was that where the American was accused of being a spy and he was captured by the Russians?
Q. Yes; and his name was Francis Gary Powers.
A. Yes. I don't know if it was when I was married to Lee, but I remember the incident. Whether it come from Lee or from the newspaper I don't remember, but I am aware of the incident.
Q. You were aware of it?
A. Yes. All the Russian citizens were talking about it.
Q. Did Lee ever talk to you about it?
A. I don't recall. Before I came to this country I thought only Americans sent spies around the world; Russians never did things like that.
Q. Are you familiar with a letter that Lee wrote to the American embassy requesting the return to him of his passport?
A. Well, the letters were composed in the English language. How many and what he wrote in them I don't know, but I knew he was sending letters to the American Embassy or to the Russian authorities to let him get out of Russia.
Q. When was the first time he told you he wanted to get out of Russia and back to the United States?
A. After we were married.
Q. Did Lee discuss with you the reaction of the Russian authorities of the U.S. authorities to the letters he was sending?
A. Of course it was a big matter for both of us and up to the date that the allowed my to leave the country, I really did not believe that it would amount to anything.
Q. Did Lee say he had been contacted by the CIA?
Q. When he was in Russia. Or agents of the CIA?
Q. Did he ever discuss the CIA with you?
A. I never knew what the CIA was until they started asking me the questions. Until I came to this country I never knew what the CIA was.
Q. When was the first time you became aware of what they were.
A. I do believe after the assassination.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you American spies without using the name CIA?
A. Well, it was an incident when the doctor at the Embassy who examined me and was very kind and nice to me--
Q. What was his name?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Is that a Dr. Davidson?
A. It sounds familiar. Well, we were living here, we were in America already, and then Lee told me that this man was accused of being a spy so the Russians threw him out of the Soviet Union. To me it sounded like a ridiculous accusation; a man that nice cannot be a spy.
Q. Was that the first time Lee discussed him with you?
Q. What was his reaction?
A. Russians accuse every everybody of spying against them.
Q. What did Dr. Davidson do when you met him in the Soviet Union? What were the circumstances of your seeing him?
A. Well, he gave me a physical examination and he knew that I was very worried and scared to leave the country and he kind of patted me on the shoulder and said, "Don't worry, it will be a nice life for you." It was a nice reassurance, both very human and very warm. He talked about his family.
Q. Was Lee with you during this examination?
Q. What did he say about his family?
A. He said that his mother was of Russian descent, I think I recall that, and I found out from him that some Russian people live in the United States which I did not know before.
Q. Did he give you the names of anybody to contact in the United States?
A. I think he might have mentioned some names but I don't remember right now.
Q. Did you ever contact any of the people he mentioned?
Q. Did Lee have any contact with Dr. Davidson apart from your physical examination?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you remember when you went to the American Embassy with Lee? Do you remember that event?
Q. Who did you meet at the Embassy?
A. I don't remember the name. I remember the building.
Q. Would it be either Mr. Snyder or Mr. McVicker?
A. Yes; both names sound very familiar. I do not remember the faces now.
Q. Was that the first occasion you had ever met them?
Q. Had you heard Lee discussing them previously?
A. I don't remember.
Mr. WOLF. For the record it should be noted that Miss Brady had just left the room for a few moments.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Did Lee discuss with you his prior contact with the Embassy before you and he went together to the Embassy?
Q. Did he discuss the letters he had written to the Embassy?
A. Excuse me. I do not understand the question. Prior to our marriage?
Q. No; prior to the two of you going to the Embassy together.
A. Yes; I am sorry. I misunderstood you. He went to the Embassy first.
Q. Did he then discuss with you his trip to the embassy?
A. He went to Moscow and then he called me to come over.
Q. What did he say to you when he called?
A. Just to get a few days off from work and buy a plane ticket and fly there.
Q. Q. Did he indicate that the people at the Embassy were friendly or not friendly?
A. Well, he told me that they will be friendlier than the Russians are.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you his being asked to work as an American agent or as an American spy by any individual?
A. No; you mean in Russia?
Q. Have any of the people sho you met in the Embassy at that time been in contact with you since you left Russia or with Lee?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss them after you got to the United States?
A. No; except this doctor that we discussed during this incident about being a spy.
Q. How did it come that you were examined by the doctor?
A. Pardon me?
Q. How was it arranged for you to be examined by the doctor?
A. Well, I assumed that before you entered this country you have to have a physical that you are healthy enough, you don't have any disease, I guess.
Q. So you were told that you had to have an examination?
Q. You didn't request it?
Q. Who told you that you needed it?
A. Somebody at the Embassy.
Q. One of the people at the Embassy?
Q. Did the doctor give you anything to take out of the country or did you leave anything with the doctor?
A. No; you man a message?
Q. Yes; or any physical possession.
Mr. WOLF. It should be noted that Miss Brady has just returned to the room.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Apart from the one time you had your physical examination, did you meet the doctor at any other time?
A. No; whomever I met at the embassy it was only for the official visits and I didn't know who was there or how many people.
Q. After you left Russia, where did you go?
A. Straight to America through a few foreign countries.
Q. Which countries did you stop in?
A. By train we went from Minsk, I believe-anyway through Poland to Germany to Holland.
Q. Did you stop in Polan? Did you get off the train?
A. Oh, just for a few minutes. No, no, I don't think we stopped in Poland. yes, we did. I am sorry. Yes, because I remember that people over there at the station, the Polish people, they tried to exchange their money for American dollars.
Q. Did you meet anybody particularly when you stopped?
Q. And it was only for a few minutes?
A. As far as I recall, yes.
Q. Did the train stop in Germany?
A. I do believe they had one or two stops.
Q. Were they long or short?
Q. Did you meet anybody on the train who you became particularly friendly with?
Q. Did Lee?
A. No; not that I know of.
Q. Where was the final destination of the train?
Q. Is that where you got off the train?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. We spent a day and a night in Amsterdam. I don't know whose house, a rented house or a room or something. It was not a hotel, it was a house.
Q. Who found it?
A. I don't know. Lee made all the arrangements.
Q. When did he make the arrangements?
A. I assume that the Embassy gave him the accommodations that he can rent a room inexpensively.
Q. When you were still in Russia?
A. I assumed that.
Q. But when you first got off the train in Amsterdam, what was the first thing that Lee did?
A. I don't know. I guess picked up the suitcases.
Q. Did you get into a bus or a cab and go directly to an apartment or did you walk around the city?
A. I don't remember if we took the taxi and went to this house and then walked or whether we walked around and then went to the house. I don't remember.
Q. Was it a house or an apartment that you stayed in when you were in Amsterdam?
A. It looks like it is a boardinghouse to me right new in my memory. It was not a motel or a hotel.
Q. It was not? A It looks like it is a private roominghouse.
Q. Did you meet anybody at the apartment?
Q. When Lee went downstairs was there a person at a desk?
A. There was no desk as far as I remember.
Q. No desk?
A. I don't remember. I do not speak English.
Q. Did Lee meet anybody at a desk downstairs?
A. I don't know. I was too preoccupied carrying the baby and worrying. I was very tired.
Q. Who did you meet when you were in Amsterdam?
A. Nobody that I recall.
Q. Did you and Lee spend the entire time together?
A. Maybe it was after hours or it was a Sunday, I don't recall. All the shops were closed so we just window-shopped a little bit.
Q. Do you remember if Lee paid for the apartment you stayed at before or after you left Amsterdam?
A. I think the Embassy have him a loan of some money and I assume with that he paid for the room.
Q. Did you meet the person who ran the roominghouse?
A. No; I saw some lady that brought dinner and that is all.
Q. You ate dinner downstairs in a big room?
A. No; I think it was in the room we were renting.
Q. And they brought dinner into your room?
Q. What was Lee's reaction or his attitude when he reached Amsterdam? Was he happy to be out of Russia?
A. Yes; he said that is the free world. That was his attitude.
Q. Returning to the rifle for a moment, when you were window-shopping with Lee in Amsterdam, for example, did you pass any stores that had guns or rifles in the window?
A. If we passed, I never paid any attention.
Q. Would Lee ever make comments if you were walking around Minsk, when he walked to stores in Minsk-
A. They don't have stores in Russia where they sell guns. I don't know where he purchased them.
Q. When he was in Minsk and Amsterdam, for example, did he ever discuss his rifle with you if you did not bring up the subject?
A. What was there to discuss?
Q. Would he talk about guns generally?
A. I don't like guns so what am I going to talk about guns? What do I know about guns? Nothing.
Q. When you were in Minsk did you ever see ammunition, bullets in your apartment?
A. If I have, I don't recall right now. If you have a gun, you are probably supposed to have ammunition.
Q. Were you afraid of the gun, of guns?
A. Well, I disliked them.
Q. Would you be afraid of ammunition if it was left near the gun?
A. Well, I don't know what to expect from it. Could it explode or not be itself?
Q. But in Minsk you don't recall if you ever say any ammunition?
A. I don't recall.
Q. How much of all your possessions when you were in Minsk did Lee bring with you on the trip to Amsterdam? Did you have to leave a lot of things in Russia?
A. We don't have very much to leave behind. We just took the simple clothing that we brought back, som personal things, maybe a few books.
Q. Who did the packing? Did you both pack?
A. I assume we did but Lee did most of the packing.
Q. Did Lee purchase the tickets for the boat when you were in Amsterdam?
Q. Do you know, were those arrangements for the boat make in advance by the embassy as well?
A. I assume it was.
Q. When you left Minsk did Lee tell you what part of America you were going to?
A. He said to Texas.
Q. Why were you going to Texas, did Lee tell you?
A. Because Lee had a brother who lived in Fort Worth.
Q. And he stated that was the reason he was going to go to Texas?
Q. On the boat over to New York do you recall if Lee was friendly with anybody in particular?
Q. Do you recall meeting anybody in particular?
A. The only person that I recall was the steward at the dining table. We were assigned to a certain dining table and only one gentleman that I talked to.
Q. Did you discuss anything in particular with him?
A. The gentleman spoke a few Russian words to me like help and just how are you and things like that and I asked through Lee how come he spoke Russian and he said that his father was Russian and mother is from Holland and from childhood he remembered a few phrases and that is all.
Q. Did Lee when he was discussing Texas with you tell you that he wanted to live there permanently?
A. Well, I don't remember temporary or permanently. He was hoping to get a job here.
Q. Did he ever discuss any other parts of the United States where he would like to live?
A. No; he said he liked New Orleans because his aunt lived there.
Q. Had he been in New Orleans?
Q. What did he tell you about New Orleans?
A. That it is a lovely city and it is a very interesting city to live in.
Q. Did he say that he had friends there?
A. No; he said he has relatives there.
Q. Relatives. And he also had relatives in Fort Worth?
Q. Did he speak about friends he had in Fort Worth.
Q. When you first got to Fort Worth did Lee introduce you to his brother?
A. Yes; they met us at the airport.
Q. And you lived with his brother for a little while?
Q. Who else did Lee introduce you to when you first got to Fort Worth?
A. A few Russian immigrants.
Q. What were their names?
A. Mr. Gregory was the first one that I recall meeting.
Q. Is that Paul Gregory?
A. Yes-no, no, no. I think Paul is his son. It was the elderly Mr. Gregory. I don't remember his name.
Q. Were these people Lee knew before he had gove to Russia?
A. I don't think so. I do believe that he went to the library to get a few Russian books that they have in the library for me to read and somebody mentioned Mr. Gregory's name and he got in contact with him.
Q. Who got in touch with Mr. Gregory, Lee?
A. Well, I really don't remember who contacted whom. Anyway he came home and he told me that he met a Russian gentleman.
Q. Did Lee introduce you to any of his previous friends from Fort Worth or from Dallas?
Q. Who else beside Mr. Gregory do you remember who was in the Russian community?
A. Well, through him I have been introduced to other immigrants here. I met Galya Clark.
Q. Any others?
A. Well, Anna Miller and George de Mohrenschildt.
Q. Did you meet them at parties or did Lee bring them over to your house or what were the occasions that you would meet these people?
A. Well, they came to our house and then we had been invited to their homes for a day or for dinner.
Q. Apart from these people in the Russian community, were you ever invited to anybody else's house or did you have other people over to your house who were friends of yours?
A. I don't remember any.
Q. When Lee obtained this job did he discuss the people he worked with?
Q. Did you ever meet anybody he worked with?
Q. Did Lee read any books still at this time? You said that was his hobby in Minsk.
A. Yes, he did. he went to the library quite often and would bring some books and he would read them.
Q. Were they in English or in Russian?
A. In English.
Q. Did he make an effort for you to obtain any book to read?
A. Yes, I read every book that was in the library that was in the Russian language.
Q. Were there many?
A. No; there were not many. Can we have a break please?
Mr. WOLF. Sure. Any time you like. (Whereupon, at 11:05 a.m., a recess was taken until 11:28 a.m.)
Mr. WOLF. We will now go back on the record. It is now approximately 11:30. Attorney Jim McDonald is in the room. We also have present from the National Archives, Mr. James M. Leahy who has brought some exhibits with him today that are in the custody of the National Archives.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. Porter, I would like to show you five different cameras at the current time and ask you if you recognize any of them and if so which ones.
A. I don't recognize any of them.
Q. You don't recognize any of them?
Q. You have never seen cameras that looked like that previously?
A. Well, I am not an expert on cameral at all so I cannot say that, that I recognize any of them.
Q. Well, have you ever used a camera similar to any of those?
A. Well, I used a camera once in my life when I took a picture of Lee but I don't know what the camera looks like.
Q. You don't remember what the camera looks like?
Q. Have you any memory?
A. I have been told what button to push and that is all I recall.
Q. Did you ever take any other pictures?
A. Yes; on a Polaroid camera but I have to read the directions on how to use it from time to time.
Q. Does a Polaroid camera looklike the ones you see before you?
A. My own is nothing like that.
Q. Nothing like that?
Q. Do you know if you have ever seen cameras like that before, not if you have used them but if you have ever seen them before?
A. Well, I have seen some people wear a camera like that around their neck, a tourist.
Q. You can open that if you want to and see what it looks like.
A. No; it would not do me any gook to see it.
Q. Have you ever seen a camera like that before?
A. I would be silly to say I never saw a camera like that. I might have seen it but I don't recall. I cannot identify any of those cameras and say that I used them or seen them before.
Q. This camera here, does this look at all familiar to you?
Q. Which is identified as Commission exhibit No. 750.
A. No; I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall?
Q. This camera here which is identified as Commission exhibit No. 136, does that look at all familiar to you?
Q. This camera here, which is FBI exhibit D-145, does that look familiar to you?
A. No; none of those cameras look familiar.
Q. This exhibit here which is identified as FBI exhibit D-80, dows this look familiar to you?
Q. And this camera here which is a Minox 1 :3.5 F-15 millimeter with the serial No. S2339303, does this look familiar to you?
Q. Did you ever see any of the cameras before you in the possession of Lee?
A. I do not recall now at all the camera we used to have. The camera could be here but I would not recognize it at all.
Q. You just don't remember?
Q. If I show you this camera which was Commission exhibit No. 750 and raise the top part so you can see there is a viewfinder and ask you just to look at the camera, would that refresh your recollection that that was the camera you allegedly took the photographs of Lee with?
A. Well, I honestly do not remember if I look straight at the object or look down.
Q. But seeing the camera today you still have no memory of what the camera looked like?
A. No; I am sorry I am unprofessional about it.
Q. Whatever your memory is, that is what we want to find out.
A. I definitely never saw that before.
Q. Which are you referring to?
A. these two little ones.
Q. the record should note that she is referring to the Minox camera which is D-80 and the other Minox camera which is identified on the record as Minox 1 :3.5.
A. And by that I man in my possession or Lee's possession.
Q. You never saw a camera like that?
Mr. WOLF. I would like to thank the national Archives for their cooperation in bringing the cameras here today. We are done with them, and they may be returned to the Archives.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Was Lee interested in photography?
A. Didn't he have a job once to do something with photography?
Q. Did he discuss it with you?
A. His job? No.
Q. When he was in Russia did he ever take pictures?
Q. Do you remember what the camera looked like?
Q. Were they general tourist type pictures or were they specific pictures?
A. He would take pictures of me or a view around the city with our friends.
Q. Did he have one camera or more than one?
A. I think only one. I do not recall.
Q. And the camera that he had in Russia, is that the same camera he used to take pictures when he got to the United States?
A. I really don't remember. I assume it was the same one.
Q. Returning to your trip from Russia to Amsterdam, was Lee gone for a long period of time by himself when you were on the train? Would he leave your compartment or seat and talk to other people for a long period of time?f
Q. Returning for a few moments to questions about your life in Russia, did you date other men before Lee?
A. Of course I had.
Q. Did any others propose marriage to you?
Q. Did you consider them as serious proposals of marriage?
A. Will, it is hard to justify right now at 19 how serious you can be.
Q. Well, you decided to marry Lee within a month or a little over a month after meeting him.
Q. How did you treat the other proposals of marriage you had received?
A. Well, I just didn't know.
Q. What primarily attracted you to Lee to marry him?
A. Well, I was in love with the man. I fell in love with the man. he was neat in his appearance. He was quite polite. I liked his accent.
Q. And you decided to marry him despite the wished and advice of your uncle?
Q. How strenuous did you uncle object?
A. Well, it was not any argument over it. I just knew he was not very happy about that.
Q. Concerning your leaving Russia, your uncle was opposed to that as well?
Q. How vocal was his opposition to your leaving Russia?
A. He was very cold toward me and his objections about me leaving the Soviet Union didn't come directly through him all the time; mainly it was through his wife. She tried to persuade me to stay there.
Q. And despite her protestations you decided to leave?
A. Well, Lee and my daughter were the only close family that I ever really had. At least I felt belonging to somebody, not beign in somebody's way.
Q. Didn't you feel close to your aunt and uncle who you were living with?
A. Yes; especially my aunt.
Q. You felt especially close to your aunt and you left?
A. I knew I could not live with them forever and I had to make my own life somehow.
Q. Did you during this time keep a diary?
A. No; I never kept a diary.
Q. You never kept a diary. Did you keep any notes or letters that you had written to Lee or Lee had written to you?
A. I had no reason to write letters to Lee except when I was on vacation, maybe a postcard. We had not been away from each other that long.
Q. Did he write you any letters when you were on vacation?
Q. Do you still have those letter?
A. No; I don't have anything.
Q. Did you ever get approached by anybody when you started going out with Lee who you thought was an agent of the Soviet Government to give information about Lee?
A. No; never.
Q. Prior to meeting Lee did anybody in the Soviet Government discuss with you whether or not you would be interested in working for the Soviet Government?
Q. Do you know if it was common practice or was it practice for the government to approach people to work for them and get information on another individual?
A. you mean information?
A. Not for a spy, no. Like wanted and desirable. In Russia you don't discuss politics that openly and you always have to look over your shoulders and see if somebody will squeal on you, something like that.
Q. After you and Lee left Russia did Lee ever visit any of the people he had met over there who also left subsequently, any of the Cubans?
A. Would you please repeat the question.
Q. After you and Lee were in the United States did Lee ever visit or have someone come to visit him, any of the people whom you had known in Russia?
Q. Did he ever have any contact with them that you know of? Did he write letters to any of the people?
A. Yes; he wrote to friends.
Q. In Minsk?
Q. Any other people?
A. Pavel Golovachev.
Q. Did he ever have any contact with the people that Mr. Davidson had talked to him about-Dr. Davidson's mother?
A. Not that I know about.
Q. Did he ever talk about going to visit the Cuban students or his old friends?
Q. Did he ever talk about writing them, aside from Pavel?
A. No; I do not recall if he cooresponded with Mr. Ziger or not. I do not know.
Q. Mrs Porter, we have asked you during the previous bread to review JFK executive session exhibit 71 which at the current time consists of photographs Nos. 1 through 109. I would ask you-
Mr. HAMILTON. For the record, I take it when you say JFK exhibit this is an exhibit of the JFK subcommittee and not a Commission exhibit F.
Mr. WOLF. That is correct. That is an exhibit that has been formerly introduced in the hearing.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. I would ask you, did you have an opportunity to review that during the break we have had?
A. Yes; I have.
Q. Mrs. Porter, could you please once again flip through the book and inform us of any of the pictures that you recognize?
A. No. 5 picture looks familiar.
Q. Could you state, where do you recognize that gentleman from?
A. Maybe from the newspapers or I might have met him at Mr. Garrison's investigation in New Orleans.
Q. Had you met him prior to Mr. Garrison's investigation in New Orleans?
Q. Please take your time and carefully look at each picture.
A. I recognize No. 28.
Q. How did you first meet the person in No. 28? Do you know who that is?
A. That is George de Mohrenschildt's wife, Jeanne.
Q. When was the first time you met Jeanne de Mohrenschildt?
A. I don't know whether I met her in Dallas or Fort Worth but that is one of the first months that we came to this country. No. 57, picture of Lee. no. 58 is a picture of myself. Is that Jack Ruby, No. 60?
Q. Excuse me. What number?
A. No. 60.
Q. Yes; No. 60 is a photo of Jack Ruby. What is the first time you recall seeing that individual?
A. After Lee was shot I seen his picture on television and in the newspaper. I do not recognize any more faces.
Q. Those are the only photos you recognize?
Q. For the record it should be noted that No. 5, which Mrs. Porter identified, was a photograph of Clay Shaw. I also show you now, Mr. Porter, three additional photographs that will be inserted into the photo book that we will refer to as 110, 111, and 112. I ask you whether or not you recognize any of those individuals?
A. No; I don't.
Q. You do not.
Q. I now show you, Mr. Porter, a composite drawing that is labeled on the bottom as Maurice Bishop. the committee released that sketch approximately 2 weeks ago and it has been published in several newspapers.
Mr. HAMILTON. In what context are you asking?
Mr. WOLF. In the context that it was released?
Mr. HAMILTON. Yes.
Mr. WOLF. It was released in the hope that anybody that has any information about that man might get in touch with the committee.
By Mr. WOLF;
Q. In conjunction with the sketch the three photographs were also released at that time and that context was if anybody has any knowledge of who these individuals are, they should get in touch with the committee. I would ask if you recognize any of the individuals in the three photographs or the person in the sketch?
A. No; only this picture on the television screen 1 week ago or so.
Q. One week ago?
A. that was the first time.
Q. And you had not seen it before?
Q. And any of the three individuals in the three photographs?
Q. Thank you. I now would like to show you, Mrs. Porter, six photographs and see if you can identify these for us.
A. This is a picture of me and my daughter June when she was a child. I do not know where they were taken though. Do you want to number them some way.
Q. We will put numbers on the back of these and Mrs. Porter is referring to them at this time. Picture No. 1 she has referred to as -
A. That is me and my daughter.
Q. Do you recall when this was taken?
Q. Do you know if people took pictures of you apart from Lee?
A. Well, I don't recall the picture taking incident, period. I don't know who took the picture.
Q. Did Lee take pictures of you?
A. I don't know. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember?
A. No; it could have been in New Orleans because I was expecting a baby then.
Q. These pictures we will ask you to identify. You don't remember if Lee took any pictures of you?
Q. Picture No. 2.
A. That is a picture of my daughter.
Q. Picture No. 3.
A. That is a picture of my daughter. Nos. 4 and 5 are pictures of my daughter as well. No. 6 is me and my daughter.
Q. Which daughter?
Q. Mrs. Porter, do you remember the incident when these pictures were taken?
Q. Did Lee photograph pictures of you and your daughters at any time?
A. In this country?
A. Yes; in Dallas once, on a balcony, he took a picture of my daughter.
Q. Any other times?
Q. Do you recall now any other times?
A. Well, we took a picture once at the bus station through this thing called the photomat where you put a quarter or a dime or whatever price in it and maybe Lee took pictures of me during our life together; yes.
Q. Do you have any memory of these specific pictures being taken?
Q. These pictures, for the record, were developed from negatives that were found in the National Archives. Do you know, have you heard the name before, Pavel Golovachev?
A. Golovachev; yes.
Q. And how do you know him?
A. I already told you before. He was one of the friends of Lee in Russia.
Q. When you met him do you recall any specific discussions he and Lee had?
A. Most of the time they spoke in English. As I mentioned, Pavel liked to practice his English with Lee. They were quite close friends. Whether they discussed politics, I don't know, but just the current news.
Q. Do you know of a Sergey Bzlov?
A. No; I don't recall this name.
Q. The last name is possibly Uslov.
Q. Did Lee ever tell you that he and Pavel had discussed any type of assassinations?
Q. Now, when you arrived in Dallas did you ask Lee to commence learning english?
A. Excuse me.
Q. Did you ask Lee that you would like to learn english?
A. Well, I did not ask him if I liked to learn English. I knew I must and I had to learn in order to communicate with people here.
Q. What did you do to start learning how to speak English?
A. George Bouhe, a Russian immigrant, tried to teach me English.
Q. At the current time are you a U.S. citizen?
A. No; I am not.
Q. What citizenship are you at the present time?
A. The Soviet Union.
Q. Do you have to do anything with the Government of the Soviet Union to maintain your citizenship?
Q. Do you have to report to the embassy at all, periodically?
A. No; every year I have to report to immigration authoritites of this country.
Q. Of our country?
A. Yes; of my address.
Q. And did that practice start as soon as you entered the United States?
A. I don't remember when it started.
Q. After you entered the United States did you have any contact with the Soviet Embassy here in this country?
A. Just recently i did place a telephone call from my home to the Russian Embassy. It took me 3 days to reach somebody on the phone that was willing to discuss.
Q. The soviet Embassy in this country?
Q. Was that in Washington?
A. Yes; I placed the call from my home to Washington, D.C.
Q. What was the purpose of your phone call at that time?
A. It seems to me that since the assassination I have no contact to my family, my letters don't go through, and I am pretty sure that it is not the Americans who are holding my letters so I want to know from the Russian Embassy to whom I should write or can they help me to send my letters to my family and I don't care if they have been photographed, taped, it does not matter. They suggested that I send a telegram which I did.
Q. How recently was that?
A. I have had no reply.
Q. How recently?
A. Two weeks ago.
Q. How do you know that none of your letters are getting through?
A. Because I talked with my sister on the phone, I do believe twice, maybe three times, since i was in this country and she said she never received any of my letters.
Q. Where is your sister now living?
A. In Leningrad.
Q. In 1962 did you have to go to the Soviet Embassy at that time to maintain your Soviet citizenship?
Q. So once you got into this country--
A. Excuse me. 1962, was I here already?
Q. Yes. When you got to the United States did you have to go to the Soviet Embassy to maintain your Soviet citizenship?
Q. You never reported to the Soviet Embassy?
Q. Did anybody from the Soviet Embassy contact you while you were living in this country?
A. No; they have not but I think since our discussion progressed I recall I had another contact with the Russian Embassy when I was writing the letters to go back to them when Lee was threatened.
Q. But apart from that incident.
A. I never visited the Embassy.
Q. But apart from that incident nobody from the Soviet Embassy has ever been in contact with you?
Q. And you have not been in contact apart from that incident and your recent phone calls with anybody in the Soviet Embassy?
Q. When Lee returned with you to Dallas and Fort Worth did anybody from the U.S. Government approach Lee about his experiences in Russia and want to talk to him about his experiences in Russia?
A. We had some visitors and Lee told me that that was a representative of the FBI. Of course they talked in English and he told me that the just were checking on him, that is all.
Q. How soon after you came to Dallas was that visit?
A. Quite shortly after.
Q. How many people from the FBI came? Was it one or was it two?
A. I don't recall the first time if it was one or two men but Lee went outside and talked with him or with them.
Q. How long did that conversation last?
A. Well, I cannot really say how many minutes.
Q. Was it short, long?
A. Thirty minutes. It was not very long.
Q. Thirty minutes?
A. It could be.
Q. What was Lee's attitude at the end of that conversation?
A. He was very upset and angry and he told me that he wanted them to leave him alone.
Q. Were you ever approached by anybody when you and Lee returned to Dallas to talk about your experiences in Russia?
A. No. Once at Ruth Paine's house a man came and through her interpretation I have been asked by this man if anybody ever approached me from Russia or any other countries to work for them and if they do, please contact them.
Q. Who was that person who was at that house, Ruth Paine's?
A. I think it was Mr. Hosty.
Q. Approximately when was that? How shortly after you arrived in Dallas with Lee?
A. Well, I arrived in 1962 and it was in 1963 sometime.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss any other agency of the U.S. Government aside from the FBI?
Q. He never mentioned the word CIA?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. When was the first time when you were living in Dallas that you saw that Lee owned a rifle?
A. I really don't remember the day or month.
Q. No the day or month but what was the first occasion? What were the circumstances when you saw it?
A. I don't remember. What is the first time you remember seeing the rifle currently?
A. I believe it was in Dallas but I would not be sure. I would not swear it it. Believe me, I tried to remember my best recollection.
Q. I am just asking now that you do remember, what was the circumstance? was it in a closet? Was he holding it? What was the first time you currently remember seeing the rifle, any rifle?
A. Well, the things flash in my memory right now of him going out after dard wearing a raincoat and he told me that he was going to practice in some shooting range. I don't mean that was the first time as I see it flashing right now.
Q. It may not be the first time but you remember one incident when he was in the raincoat?
Q. And you saw the rifle at that time?
A. I am not saying that is the first time.
Q. But you saw it at that time?
A. And down in New Orleans he was sitting in the dark on the porch.
Q. The time you saw him in the raincoat, was that before you moved to New Orleans or after?
A. I believe it was in Dallas because it was quite hot outside. I mean it was very silly for somebody to put a raincoat over your body in such hot weather.
Q. I was not going to rain that day?
A. No. Q Did you see the rifle or did you ask him, "Why are you wearing a raincoat?"
A. I probably did but I do not remember the conversation.
Q. Did you ask him where he was going to go practicing?f
A. Well, he said that you can take a bus and go somewhere but I don't know where.
Q. Did you see the rifle itself at that time?
A. I don't remember if it had any cover to it. I don't remember.
Q. It was at night after--
A. I was after dark.
Q. After dark.
A. It was very dark but whatever time, it started getting kind of in between.
Q. Did you ask him how he could go target shooting in the dark?
A. It never occurred to me. I have to explain, I never had any interesting rifles.
Q. You said you didn't like guns.
A. No; but I never took Lee seriously with this thing. I thought a boy playing awith a big toy and that it would be just temporary. I never realized how serious it was at the time.
Q. When was the first time that you say that Lee possessed a hun as opposed to a rifle?
A. I honestly don't remember.
Q. What is the first time you remember seeing the gun?
A. Just a minute. Could that be when he asked me to take the picture of him and he was wearing this gun or golding the rifle?
Q. He had a gun in that picture.
A. Yes; and it was ridiculous to take a picture. I was puzzling me why anybody would want to take a picture dressed like that with all the equipment.
Q. Did you ask him?
A. Yes. We had a fuss and a fight over it.
Q. About the gun and the rifle?
Q. What did he say?
A. The picture was taken and it was ridiculous.
Q. Did you ask him though about the gun and the rifle and tell him that you didn't like the guns? He knew that.
A. He knew that.
Q. What was his reaction?
A. That it was none of my business.
Q. Apart from the time Lee went ot go target shooting that you have told us about, what other times do you remember seeing the rifle?
A. Well, like in New Orleans he would be sitting and cleaning and polishing the silly thing.
Q. And when you saw cleaning, what was he doing to the rifle?
A. Oh, he was putting rags around and putting oil or something on it.
Q. Did he do that in Dallas as well?
A. He might have, but I do not remember it not to give you the detailed description of it.
Q. When was the first time that Lee told you he had used the rifle apart from the target practice?
A. I think the General Walker incident.
Q. Could you relate the details of that incident to us now?
A. Well, I really cannot describe the details but the would be quite accurate in the testimony that I gave at the Warren Commission and if you refresh my memory I might be able to tell you.
Q. What happened the days before the Walder incident; did Lee act unusual at all?
A. Well he would be sitting--he made a little kind of not an office, a little closet that he has a chair there and maybe a desk-not a desk, improvisation of a desk, and he would be writing something down and he told me to to bother him so he was quite secretive about it.
Q. And that was a few days before?
A. A few days, a few weeks. I do not remember exactly the time.
Q. Was Lee restless a few days before the incident? Was he calm? Did he sleep well?
A. I don't recall his mood.
Q. Did Lee ever talk in his sleep?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Again in the book "Marina and Lee" you said that a few days prior to the Walker incident you recollect that he was talking in his sleep.
A. that could be true.
Q. Do you remember, would he talk in English or would he talk in Russian.
A. I don't remember the incident right now.
Q. Did Lee go to work the day that he told you he shot at General Walker?
A. I don't remember the incident right now.
Q. Did Lee go to work the day that he told you he shot at General Walker?
A. I don't remember that either. What day of the week was it?
Q. It was a Wednesday.
A. Was it Wednesday? Well, I am sorry. I simply do not remember.
Q. How did Lee first tell you about the shooting of General Walker?
A. Well, he was gone most of the night and came home very late and turned the radio on.
Q. How did you feel that evening when he did not come home?
A. He did not come home for a long time and I do believe that I found a note addressed to me what to do in case something happened to him and I was petrified and didn't know what to do.
Q. When did you find the note?
A. After he went out.
Q. Was it unusual for him to be out late?
A. No; since he was leaving the house sometimes for this practicing that he supposedly was going to.
Q. So you were not surprised that he was out that evening?
A. Well, I was surprised that he came home that late.
Q. Were you worried where he was?
A. Of course I was.
Q. Did you contact anybody?
A. No; I didn't.
Q. What did he say when he returned?
A. Well, he turned the radio on and he was very pale and he was listening to the news, changing from station to station. I asked him what it was all about and he said that he tried to shoot General Walder. I told him how dare you take somebody's life and you should not do things like that, I mean you have no right to do it. He said, see, if somebody shot Hitler at the right time you will do justice to humanity so since I don't know anything about the man I should not talk about it.
Q. Did you know who General Walder was?
A. He told me he was a Fascist. That is all I know.
Q. Had you heard the name before?
Q. Did Lee ever mention to you a man named Scotty?
Q. Did Lee ever--
A. Just a minute. I heard this name before and I don't know if it came from Lee or somebody that he could be working with. I think it is a little but confusing. Scotty could be a dog. I am sorry.
Q. Did he ever mention a man who spoke with a Scottish accent?
A. Oh, you mean with a Scottish accent? No; never.
Q. Did he ever mention a man who lived with General Walker?
A. No; I thought the man lived alone after what I read later on.
Q. When Lee came back that night was he disheveled?
A. What's disheveled?
Q. Was he dirty? Were his clothes still neat?
A. Well, honestly I only remember that he was very pale and that is all I recall.
Q. When do you recall him leaving the house that day prior to his shooting at General Walker?
A. I don't recall if he came from work and then left or whether he left after work. I don't remember.
Q. Was he dressed in the same clothes that you saw him previously when he returned?
A. I just don't remember.
Q. Did he have the rifle with him when he came back?
A. No; I think he said he left it hidden somewhere and I do believe the next day at night he went and got it. That is what I remember right now. That is the testimony I am giving you, what I remember.
Q. That is what we want, your present recollection. Did he tell you he had shot at him with a rifle or did he mention that he had used a gun?
A. Well, I think it was a rifle.
Q. Did he tell you where he hid the rifle or the gun?
A. I think he might have mentioned that it was in the shrubs somewhere.
Q. Did you discuss with him whether it would be found and the police would be looking for him?
A. It was such an unpleasant and terrifying incident that I was just trembling all day long. I was looking through the windows; I was expecting police coming any second.
Q. Did you suggest to Lee that he go back and get the gun or rifle or did he do it by himself?
A. I think he did it by himself.
Q. What did he do with the gun or the rifle when he went back and got it?
A. Kept it in the house.
Q. Did you see it again?
A. Well, I never made a point of going and checking the rifle every day to see whether is was there or not.
Q. Where in the house would he keep it?
A. In the closet.
Q. On a shelf or was it on the floor?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was it wrapped in anything?
A. It could be just kind of stanking in the corner.
Q. Proppoed up in the corner of the closet?
A. It could be.
Q. Was it covered? Was it wrapped in anything?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was the closet crowded? Did it have many things in it?
A. Usually his personal belongings, his clothes, his books, whatever, and he told me to stay out of it; that is his own private thing.
Q. This was his closet?
Q. If you opened the closet, was it easy to get the rifle or did you have to move a lot of things aside before you got it?
A. I never did it.
Q. If you opened the closet door, would you see the rifle immediately?
A. I don't remember.
Q. The photographs you took of Lee with the rifle and the pistol, do you know where Lee developed those photos?
A. Well, didn't he work for some time with photography?
Q. You don't know where he developed the films?
Q. Did he have any photographic supplies around the house?
A. It is so hard to dig through your memory that long back. He might have; I don't know.
Q. When you saw the rifle that he had, was that the same rifle he had in Russia?
A. I don't remember. How can you transport a gun from one country to another when you have to go through the inspection on the border?
Q. So you don't think he brought the gun with him?
A. I don't see how it logically or possibly could happen. Oh, you mean the same gun. Well, he bought the rifle right here.
Q. He bought it here?
Q. How did he buy the rifle here?
A. Well, I learned later afterward that he ordered through some mail.
Q. At that time did you know that he had ordered a rifle?
A. Well, since I had seen the rifle I knew he purchased it. How he purchased it I do not know.
Q. The first time you saw it did you ask him, "Where did you get the rifle?"
A. No; but I was very upset that he spent money on such an unnecessary, stupid thing then we barely could survive on what he was making.
Q. Did you ask him how much it cost?
Q. Where did Lee keep his gun? The rifle was in the closet.
A. Well, it never was on display on the wall but everybody can see it. It was always hidden somewhere back in the closet. We did not live in one place very long; we moved from apartment to the apartment.
Q. In the apartment where the rifle was kept in the closet, was the gun also kept there or was it dept somewhere else?
A. I assume it was together.
Q. Did you see it in that closet?
A. Well, see, my recollection about-do you recall the gun?
A. The pictures I took showed two.
Q. It showed a rifle and a gun.
Q. the question I have is just where did he keep the gun if the rifle was in the closet?
A. I honestly do not know.
Q. When you were living with Lee at this time, did he ever take the gun out to go target shooting with that as well as the rifle?
A. I recall only the rifle because it was quite bulky and he had to hide it under his raincoat but I do not recall the gun at all.
Q. When he brought the rifle back after he had hid it in the bushes from General Walker's house, what did he carry it in? He didn't just carry the rifle over his shoulder.
A. No; he didn't, but I told you that he was wearing this raincoat.
Q. And that is what he did when he went to bring the rifle back in?
A. He was wearing the same raincoat.
Q. Do you remember that specifically? Wouldn't you think it is strange that if it is a nice day and it is not going to rain people would ask him, "Why are you wearing a raincoat?"
A. You have to be an idiot to do that.
Q. If you were afraid that he was going to get caught with the rifle, don't you think he would have brought it back some wither way other than by wearing a raincoat?f
A. I cannot speculate on that.
Q. How did Lee get to General Walker's house?
A. Well, after all this happened and got in the news media, he was laughing about Americans being so used to cars they don't know that people can walk and run, so I assumed that maybe he took a bus, since people can walk and run, so I assumed that maybe he took a bus, since we didn't have a car, to a certain point of his destination and then walked from there.
Q. Was that how Lee got to where he hid the rifle as well?
A. Well, he did not discuss the details with me and I don't know where General Walker lived. I didn't know whereabouts.
Q. He didn't brag about how he got away?
A. Well, he bragged how quickly he could run or somebody was looking where he was not.
Q. Did he say somebody gave him a ride away from General Walker's house, that he went in somebody else's car?
Q. After the incident with General Walker, did you and Lee discuss his use of guns and shooting at people?
A. Well, we had less arguments about it because I was against it.
Q. Did you consider getting rid of the guns, the hun and the rifle?
A. Well, what would I do with them? Where would I throw them, in the trashcan? Throw them in the river, in the trashcan, so Lee would not have them in the house.
Q. Who was your closest friend at that time?
A. Well, I liked all the Russian immigrants that I met here and the were close to me be george de Mohrenschildt was the one who visited us more often than the others and I liked his personality very much.
Q. Was he your closest friend at that time?
Q. Did you discuss--not shooting anybody, with George de Mohrenschildt, but did you discuss the fact that you wished that Lee did not have guns around the house?
A. Well, I do not remember if I discussed this with George.
Q. Did George know Lee had guns around the house?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did his wife know?
A. If I gave you previous testimony or somebody else gave previous testimony, that is the truth. Right now I do not recall whether George knew or did now know.
Q. Which previous testimony are you referring to?
A. The Warren Commission. I told him the truth about this. I had a fresher memory then I have now.
Q. Yes. Whenever you testified before the Warren Commission, whatever you told them was true?
Q. Shortly after the shooting of General Walker, the attempted shootin, you and Lee moved to New Orleans; is that correct?
A. That could be correct. Say it again.
Q. After the shooting of Gener Walker.
A. Shortly after.
Q. After that you and Lee moved to New Orleans?
A. Yes. I was very happy about this move because I thought maybe his behavaior will change and he will be closer to the relative that he spoke so highly about.
Q. When did you first start talking with Lee about moving to New Orleans?
A. I think he approached me with the move to New Orleans because it seems to me that he was very short of jobs around here so he wanted to try to find something in a different city.
Q. When was the first time that you and Lee discussed moving?
A. I don't remember the day or month.
Q. Was it before the shooting of General Walder?
A. No; after.
Q. So you never discussed moving until the shooting of General Walker?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you think that it would abe easier for Lee to obtain a job in New Orleans than in Dallas?
A. Well, he was drifting from one job to another one in Dallas so I was hoping that he would have more opportunities in another city.
Q. Did he discuss with you before your move any of the other opportunities he knew about in New Orleans?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did he discuss people he knew in New Orleans?
A. He spoke about his aunt and uncle who might help to get a job for him.
Q. Did he ever discuss anybody else in New Orleans?
A. No. Besides relatives, I did not do any discussion with strangers.
Q. Did anyone ever visit you while you were still in Dallas that Lee introduced you to as a friend or somebody he knew in New Orleans?
Q. When you were in Russia, Lee discussed moving to both Dallas and New Orleans you said.
Q. Did he discuss at any time that he knew anybody in New Orleans?
A. Not that I remember. As a friend?
Q. As a friend?
A. Just as a relative.
Q. Just as a relative?
A. Just as a relative.
Q. Did you ever hold the rifle that Lee had when he was in Dallas?
A. Yes; I heard of him in Russia; yes.
Q. You heard of him in Russia ?
Q. And you knew that that was the same Mr. Nixon that you had heard of?
Q. What did you tell Lee that precipitated the fight?
A. Pardon me ?
Q. What started the fight between you and Lee ?
A. Well, I didn't want him to leave the house with the gun.
Q. What happened?
A. Well, he stayed home all day; he didn't go out.
Q. Did he just voluntarily stay home'.?
A. Well, I already told you before that everybody. asked him the same silly question, how does a small woman lock him in the bath- room, and things like that. I did not know. He wanted to provoke me. I just now can speculate about his state of mind, what the reasons were for it. Maybe just to punish me.
Q. How did he get into the bathroom?
A. Well, we fought and I cannot give you the details right now. First there was a struggle and I guess I pushed him in so somehow he went there and I held the door for a long time, but I could not go on holding the door, so I finally begged and pleaded with him and he said he would not go and I believed him. So then I told him to take the clothes off. I know that he cannot go without the clothes, so he sat and read the book then.
Q. Was he trying as hard as he could?
A. Before I said I didn't hold the gun. Well, if I asked him to give me the gun then, for example, during the fight, I could have held it and hidden it somewhere so he would not leave.
Q. How did he give you the gun ? Was he still in the bathroom
A. Could be. It was a second floor and there were stairs. There was a little like a platform there or a small hall. I don't know if he gave it to me or I took it. I don't remember.
Q. Was he trying as hard as he could, do you think, to get out the bathroom ?
A. Well, at the beginning he would probably have tried but, well, it was quite loud and I was embarrassed that the neighbors that lived below would hear us fighting and fussing.
Q. Were you fighting during this period of time before you moved to New Orleans? Were you fighting frequently with Lee ?
A. Yes; we didn't have a very peaceful life.
Q. Did he talk about going back to Russia during this period of time
A. What period of life are you talking. about, in New Orleans ?
Q. No, no. Before you moved to New Orleans.
A. I don't think so.
Q. You don't recall his discussing moving back to Russia ?
A. No; I remember the New Orleans period much clearer because then I had to write those letters.
Mr. WOLF. If you like, we could take a break now for lunch because it is a convenient breaking time.
Mr. HAMELTON. It is up to you.
Mr. WOLF. Any time you want to take a break let us know.
The WITNESS. Could we go off the record .?.
Mr. WOLF. Yes. [Discussion off the record.]
Mr. WOLF. Back on the record. We are going to take a lunch break. At the current time it is approxi- mately 12:40. I would also like to state on the record that regarding the cameras that Mrs. Porter examined previously, concerning the two Minox cam- eras, so there is no confusion on the record, the Minox which was not part of the material in the National Archives and which has serial No. 2339303 is approximately 1 1/2 inches longer than the one which is currently in the National Archives. At this time we will take a break for lunch. [Whereupon, at 12:39 p.m., a recess was taken until 2: 15 p.m.] AFTERNOON SESSION
Mr. WOLF. We are ready to resume now. It is 2 :15 and the people present are Mrs. Porter, Mr. Hamilton, Mr. McDonald, Mrs. Emanuel,
Mr. Cornwell, and myself. [Whereupon, Marina Porter resumed the stand and testified further as follows :] DIRECT EXAMINATION--RESUMED
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. Porter, did Lee keep a diary at any time during his life
A. He was doing some writing while we were living in Russia and later on it was called as a diary. At the time I did not know what all his writings were about.
Q. When did he write that
A. When we were living in Russia.
Q. Did he start it after you were married
A. I don't know when he started. He started to continue what was previously started but I saw him sitting in the evening writing something.
Q. And that was while you were in Minsk
Q. Did he continue that diary in the United States
A. I don't recall.
Q. Do you know, did he write any of that diary on the boat between Amsterdam and New York?
A. Could have been.
Q. Did you ever ask him what was in the diary when you saw him writing it ?
A. Yes; I asked on occasion.
Q. What would he say ?
A. His thoughts maybe.
Q. Could you read the diary
Q. The diary was in English or in Russian ?
A. In English.
Q. Would he write it every night when you were living together, a little bit every night, or was it written lengthy one night and then he would not work on it for some time and then write again some other time ?
A. Well sometimes 2 or 3 days maybe in a row and then skip for a week or a few days.
Q. Returning to the incident with Lee and General Walker, how long after Lee shot at General Walker did he bring the rifle home ?
A. As far as I recall right now I assume it was the next day.
Q. Did you see him bring it back home?
A. Well, if I saw it I don't remember right now.
Q. What was the first time after that shooting you saw the rifle that you remember now ?
A. Right now I don't remember.
Q. After he brought the rifle home, do you remember if Jeanne or George de Mohrenschildt ever saw the rifle ?
A. I cannot tell you that, not because I am hiding but because I can- not recall.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss
A. May I ask you a question ?
A. Did George de Mohrenschildt ever give testimony before the Commission ?
A. Don't go into details, it is none of my business.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss General Walker with you after the alleged shooting incident ?
A. Well, he didn't discuss in detail, we just had an argument over him trying to kill the man and it does not matter what his beliefs are, I felt he has no right to take anybody's life away. As I told you before, he just tried to persuade me that he was not a good man, that he felt quite strongly that he was doing a justice to the people, ired I was enough not to understand him. I didn't know anything about it.
Q. If he felt that strongly about it, do you think he might have tried to do something again to General Walker ?.
A. I am not sure of anything, at least Lee's behavior; it is unpre- dictable.
Q. He never discussed it with you ?
A. No; you mean that he discussed a second attempt ?.
Q. Another attempt.
A. No; he did not.
Q. Do you think he might have participated in another attempt without telling you about it ?
A. Your guess would be just as good as mine.
Q. But given his strong feelings about General Walker, it would be possible ?
A. Well, I am not in a position to answer this question because I am not a psychiatrist, I cannot predict how one person might react even though under anger or disliking somebody.
Q. When Lee discussed moving to New Orleans did you ask him where he would be able to obtain a Job in New Orleans ?
A. Where ?
A. He mentioned that his uncle was working somewhere on the boat docks--how do you call it, the shipyard or whatever you call it.
Q. Shipyards. Did he contact his uncle prior to in to Orleans ?
A. Lee came to New Orleans first. I did not travel with him so whom he approached and who he visited first I do not know.
Q. When he left, what did he tell you he was going to do and who did he tall you he was going to see ?
A. He said he was going to see his Aunt Lillian.
Q. Did he tell you any other individuals he would see ?
Q. Do you know how much money he took with him for that trip.?
A. No; I never was aware .of how much money Lee had on him.
Q. Did he say how long he would be gone for that trip ?
A. Well, he went to New Orleans and he said when he found a job he will call me up.
Q. Did he leave you money behind so you would have some support while he was gone .?
A. I don't remember.
Q. How would you be able to support yourself ?
A. If he did, it was not much.
Q. If he was gone for a long time, how would you be able to support yourself if you were not working at that time ?
A. Well, I was living with .Mrs. Ruth Paine at the time so he just dumped me on her hands.
Q. How did Lee get to New Orleans ?
A. I assume he took a bus.
Q. Do you remember specifically any discussion of a car ?
A. What do you mean by a discussion ?
Q. A discussion that perhaps if somebody would drive him.
A. I don't remember that. Maybe Mrs. Paine took him to the bus station. Is it possible ?
Q. When Lee left for New Orleans you did not know when he would be returning ?
Q. Did Lee ever mention the name David Ferrie to you ?
Q. What was the first time that you heard that name mentioned ?
A. Well, the name rings a bell but--David Ferrie. It was after the assassination that I heard this name.
Q. After the assassination.
A. Maybe Mr. Garrison.
Q. Do you recognize the name AI Landry ?
Q. Do you know if Lee knew him ?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you recognize the name Edward Voebel?
Q. You don't know if Lee knew him ?
Q. Do you recognize the name Alvin Beauboeff? I believe it is French.
A. The last name sounds Russian and I am sure I heard the name Beauboeff many times in Russia.
Q. Do you recognize that name in conjunction with the New Orleans area?
Q. Kerry Thornley?
Q. Did Lee ever discuss during the period of time you were en route to New Orleans-----
A. Would you please repeat the last name?
Q. Yes; Thornley, T-h-o-r-n-l-e-y-
A. May I ask you what was the name of the boy who picked him up the last day that he went to work, the day before the assassination?
Q. No; that is not the name.
A. That is not?
Q. No; that is somebody different. Did Lee ever discuss his Marine Corps friends?
Q. Do you recognize the name Albert Cheramie?
A. No; I don't.
Q. Did he ever discuss any relatives aside from the Murrets?
A. Relatives ?
Q. New Orleans that was.
A. I forgot the name.
Q. Aunt and uncle, Murrets.
A. Well, they have a daughter and he spoke fondly of her.
Q. Did he have any cousins that he referred to in New Orleans?
A. That is what I am talking about.
Q. Just that one daughter
A. She was a cousin to him.
Q. Yes; where was she living?
A. I don't know but I saw her at Aunt Lillian's house. I don't know if she was living with them or in her own apartment.
Q. Did he ever refer to relatives living in Mobile, Ala.?
A. Yes; we made a visit over there once to see another cousin of his supposedly in the seminary or he was studying to be a priest.
Q. Did Lee have frequent contact with him?
A. I think he saw him a few times. I don't know how frequently.
Q. Where would he see him
A. Only one incident that I remember when we went to see him at the seminary.
Q. How did you get there?
A. I think by the bus or maybe his aunt gave us a ride or some of the the relatives. I don't recall that. I just remember being in Mobile, Ala., and meeting this gentlemen.
Q. Did. Lee ever discuss the Civil Air Patrol in New Orleans?
A. Civil what?
Q. Civil Air Patrol.
A. What is it ?
Q. An organization.
Q. While in New Orleans did Lee ever discuss General Walker?
A. With whom ?.. With me ?
Q. With you.
A. I don't think so.
Q. Did he discuss it with other individuals ?
A. We didn't have any visitors ever, practically none. If he dis- cussed with somebody, I would not know about it.
Q. Do you recognize the name Palmer MacBride ?
Q. Prior to your going to New Orleans did any of Lee's friends stop by your house in Dallas ?
A. Would you please state that again. Prior ?
Q. Before you went to New Orleans did any of Lee's friends stop by your house in Dallas ?.
A. Well, if anybody stopped by, that would be our few actual friends and the only friends we had were the Russians.
Q. Nobody unusual stopped by ?
Q. Did Lee ever mention that somebody was writing a book and that he may be mentioned in the book ?.
A. I don't recall that at all.
Q. Did Lee discuss during that time in New Orleans the civil rights legislation of President Kennedy ?
A. Not with me anyway. I never heard him discussing that.
Q. You never heard that. Did he ever discuss activities other groups were engaging in concerning civil rights for black people ?
A. He was involved with some Cuban. I don't know if it was pro- Castro or anti-Castro movement that was in New Orleans if that is what you call it.
Q. Did Lee discuss with you the Cuban activities in New Orleans
A. Yes; he did.
Q. What did he say about them ?
A. Well, I really don't remember what he said about it but I knew he sympathized with them m whatever they were doing.
Q. Well, you said there were both pro-Castro and anti-Castro groups in New Orleans.
A. I said I do not recall whether they were pro-Castro or anti-Castro groups. I knew it had something to do with Cuba, Cuban dissent.
Q. And he sympathized with what group ? Do you remember the name of the group ?
A. Well, when he was arrested in New Orleans, supposedly the of the group was Fair Play for Cuba.
Q. Were there any other groups that he spoke about ?
A. That is all that I can recall
Q. Did he ever mention Keesler Air Force Base in Mississippi ?
A. What ?
Q. Keesler Air Force Base which is located in Mississippi.
Q. He never discussed friends from the Air Force base?
A. Well, I didn't know that he had anything to do with the Air Force.
Q. Well, they are people he may have known who were in the Air Force.
A. I don't know.
Q. How did Lee get in touch with you to tell you to come to New Orleans?
A. Well, he called. I guess he called Ruth Paine that we can come over into the apartment.
Q. Did you speak to Lee on the phone
Q. Did you ask him what he was doing in New Orleans during that time ?
A. Yes. Well, that was very casual conversation between husband and wife.
Q. Did he mention anything about people he had met, things he had been doing?
Q. Did he mention any places he had been outside of New Orleans
Q. Do you know, did he go straight from Dallas to New Orleans or did he make any stops on the way ?
A. Well, I would not know that for a fact. He did not tell me that he stopped anywhere.
Q. Have you heard that he stopped places
Q. But he never told you any place he stopped
Q. Did he ever mention Morgan City, La., in particular
A. Morgan City, no.
Q. How did Lee come to the .job he acquired in New Orleans ?
A. I don't -know by now. Was it a coffee company
Q. Reilly Coffee Co. Did he mention anybody at that company?
A. Well, no, not that I recall right now, but I think he was circling Job ads in the newspaper and applied that way.
Q. He never told you that he knew some people who helped him get the job there ?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. How did Lee find the apartment where you met him at ?
A. How did he find it ?
A. When we moved there he had already rented the apartment.
Q. Did you like the apartment ?
Q. Did you ask him why he chose that
A. Well, I knew why. That is all we could afford, I guess. I liked his Aunt Lillian's house much better.
Q. He didn't tell you that anybody had referred him to this apart- ment or suggested that he stay there ?
Q. Did Lee mention anybody who he had met during his stay in New Orleans who was particularly friendly or particularly helpful to him
A. I don't remember that really. I doubt that he mentioned it. Lee was a kind of loner. We didn't have very many friends or visitors.
Q. Did he discuss the French Quarter of New Orleans with you ?
Q. What did he say about it ?
A. Well he took me there once or twice. We could not afford to go to fancy restaurants. We would just see how other people are having fun.
Q. Did he seem to know his way around that part of town fairly well ?
Q. When you went with him did he meet people he knew there ?
A. No, we just strolled along, the three of us.
Q. Did Lee ever mention trips to Mobile, Ala., apart from the ones you told us about the trip to the seminary ?
A. By himself?
Q. By himself.
A. I don't remember right now if he did.
Q. Did you ever go on any trips with Lee outside of New Orleans ?
A. I told you I went to Mobile, Ala, with him.
Q. Apart from that.
A. Would you please say it again.
Q. Apart from that trip, did you and Lee ever go on a trip to- gether outside of New Orleans ?
A. No; it mostly was in New Orleans. We would take a bus and go somewhere.
Q. Was anyone teaching Lee how to drive during this period of time?
A. In New Orleans ?
Q. Had you ever seen him trying to drive ?
A. Once but it was in front of Ruth Paine's house when we were in Dallas. He was practicing in her car.
Q. Do you think he could have passed a driving test ?
A. I don't know. I don't drive a car so I don't know.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss a trip to Baton Rouge ?
A. The name of the town is familiar--not 'from the newspapers, course. I might even have been there.
Q. Under what circumstances would you have been there ?
A. I don't remember how I got there.
Q. Would this be with Lee ?
Q. Would this be for a day or for longer ?
A. Can we take a recess ?
Q. Yes. [Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.]
The WITNESS. It seems to me I had been in Baton Rouge but I do not recall the circumstances, why, with whom.
By Mr. Wolf:
Q. Do you remember any trip to Gulfport, La., which is on the gulf?
A. I remember the first time seeing the Gulf of Mexico.
Q. Were you there with Lee in Gulfport?
A. Somehow I don't see Lee in my memory. I see his aunt and a cousin. I don't know where Lee was.
Q. How did you get to any place when you wanted to leave New Orleans if you did not drive and Lee did not drive ?
A. Well, if we had been somewhere we would have a witness because the third person--since I did not drive and we do not have a car so it has to be somebody's car and somebody driving.
Q. Do you recall one of Lee's cousins giving him any driving lessons when he was in New Orleans ?
A. I do not recall that but it could be this young lady cousin of his. I don't know.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss a trip to Metairie, La., with you ?
A. No. Is this near New Orleans ?
Q. It is not that far. Did he ever discuss looking for work other than the Reilly Coffee Co. where he was working ?
A. Well, he said he looked for several jobs according to the news- paper ads but that was the only one that was available at the time.
Q. Once he was at Reilly, did he discuss looking for other jobs ?
A. I don't recall that he was very. happy with his job. It seemed me by then he never was happy with any job that he got.
Q. Did he mention any of his associates at Reilly Coffee Co. ?
A. Yes. He said that during the lunch period he would visit with some black young man. I don't remember his name but they became friendly. I never saw the man.
Q. How did he spend his typical lunch hour; did he tell you ?
A. Well, he usually ate a sandwich and a coke.
Q. Did he tell you?.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he found particular people very difficult to work with ?
A. Well, when Lee had difficulties on the job it was always some- body's fault.
Q. Did he ever mention who it was?
A. Names ? If he mentioned names at the time, I do not remember them right now.
Q. Are you familiar with the name John Hurt ?
Q. You never heard that ?
Q. Did Lee ever discuss anybody in Raleigh, N.C.?
Q. Are you familiar with Sam Mancuso ?
A. No. I heard this name recently in the news or somewhere else, but never then.
Q. Adrian Alba ?
Q. A Thomas Bedham?
Q. You have never heard that name ?
Q. Emmett Barbee ?
Q. Anna Dante Marachine ?
A. A beautiful name but I never heard it.
Q. Did he ever mention a Mancuso Restaurant in New Orleans ?
Q. Did he ever discuss a building known as the Newman Building ?
Q. Or did he ever discuss the International Trade Mart?
Q. When was the first time you were aware that Lee was engaged in Cuban activities while he was in New Orleans ?
A. Well, first he brought some kind of pamphlets in the house then he was arrested for it and he made some kind of speech on radio or something like that, so just little by little.
Q. What did you say when you first saw the pamphlets ? Was that the first time that you were aware of his activities ?
A. Pardon me. What did you say first ?
Q. What did you say to Lee when you first saw the pamphlets-- if that was the first time you knew about his Cuban activities?
A. Of course I was reheved with him that he was being such a revolutionary minded person. At least it was more peaceful than play- ing with the rifle. Some papers couldn't hurt.
Q. He was arrested for distributing the pamphlets; is that correct ?
A. That is what he told me.
Q. That is the only way you found out that he was arrested ?
A. Well, he didn't spend the. night at home so when he came in the morning he told me he was m jail and I asked him what for.
Q. What did you do when he didn't come home that night ?
A. Well, apparently I was waiting up for him all night; I was worried, I don't remember exactly what I did.
Q. Did you call anybody or call the police ?
A. No, I didn't call anyone because I didn't know anybody in New Orleans besides his relatives.
Q. Did you call his relatives to find out if he was all right?
A. I don't recall doing that.
Q. Was Lee working at Reilly Coffee Co. when he was arrested
A. I don't know. I don't remember.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss a place known as the Court of the Two Sisters in the French Quarter ?
A. No. Is that, the restaurant ? The name sounds familiar but I don't know where I heard it. Say it again.
Q. The Court 01 the Two Sisters.
A. Well, I doubt that it came from Lee because I had been visiting, New Orleans up until Lee died and somebody might have mentioned that name to me.
Q. Did he ever discuss the Ryder Coffee House ?
Q. Was Lee usually home with you in the evenings ?
A. Usually, yes.
Q. Did he ever go out alone ?
A. Yes; I suppose so.
Q. Did you ask him what he did on those times when he would go out ?
A. Well, he went to the library, he said, or just walk around the block.
Q. Would he go to the library at night
Q. Was it open in the evenings
A. It would be open until eight or seven or something like that.
Q. What people came to visit you and Lee together in New Orleans When you and Lee were together, what people came to visit
A. Not very many besides Mrs. Paine being there for a very short time.
Q. Any of the people who lived in New Orleans ?
A. I think Mrs. Paine once. She knew somebody in New Orleans, a friend of hers, and they came to visit us once, an American couple.
Q. What was the name of that couple ?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was Lee ever visited by people who he seemed to know and you might not have known ?
A. No; only once somebody rang the doorbell and he was in the house and he answered the door and he said it was some solicitors and that was all.
Q. Did you see them there, the people who were at the door ?
A. Just from a distance but now I don't even remember whether it was a man or woman or two of them. I don't know.
Q. How long did the conversation with Lee last ?
A. Not more than 5 minutes.
Q. Was Lee ever visited by Cubans at the house ?
Q. You have no memory of any Cuban individuals coming to the house ?
Q. After Lee lost the job at the Reilly Coffee Co. what did he do during the days ?
A. Well, he was preoccupied with his pamphlets again and he be- came very sloppy in his appearance; very irritable.
Q. Did he stay around the house most of the day ?
A. Well, sometimes he said he would go look for a job and get dressed and go out and spend most of the day out. I don't know where he was but I assume he was looking for a job. The next day maybe he does not go anywhere and then try again.
Q. Was Lee ever away overnight at any time during your stay in New Orleans ?
A. Only when he was arrested.
Q. That was the only time ?
Q. Did you and he ever travel together and stay overnight anywhere ?
A. I don't remember if we stayed overnight when we went to see his cousin, I don't recall.
Q. Lee frequently went to the library you said ?
Q. Did he have his own library card ?
Q. Did you see the library card he had?
A. No; but he checks the books out.
Q. Did you ever see the library card he used ?
A. If I seen it, I don't remember.
Q. Did he ever discuss his attitudes about the airlines ?
A. Well, he wanted to hijack a plane once and he wanted me to help him out.
Q. That was to go where ?
A. To Cuba.
Q. To Cuba. Did he ever discuss which particular airline he was going to hijack a plane of ?
Q. Did he every say anything in particular about Eastern Lines ?
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you the subject of homosexuality ?
Q. There were many people at that time in New Orleans who were homosexuals. Did he ever discuss the general attitude ?
A. Well, to tell you the truth, I found out many years later what it is all about, you know.
Q. He never discussed that with you at all ?
Q. Never indicated an attitude? If you saw somebody who was apparently homosexual, he never indicated what his attitude would be
A. I don't know his attitude.
Q. Did you ever accompany Lee when he went to the library ?
A. Excuse me.
Q. Did you ever acco. mpany Lee when he went to the library?
A. I think on one occasion.
Q. Was it close to your house ?
Q. Do you remember the name or where that library was ?
A. No, I knew it was a walking distance and it was on the same side as the house was.
Q. Are you familiar with Rosewell Thompson ?
Q. Rosewell Thompson.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss what kind of jobs he would be interested in if he left the Reilly Coffee Co., the type of work he would like to have?
A. Well, he was dreaming about having an intellectual job rather than just a plain common mechanical labor job or something like that.
Q. Did he ever discuss a job as an electrician ?
A. No; he would not be qualified.
Q. Was Lee active in discussing local politics with you ?
Q. Did he ever discuss that to your knowledge?
A. Well, I don't know how to answer this question. Something in
A. Well, maybe I was looking for the wrong thing, I don't know. local politics.
Q. Anything about the sheriff, the mayor, elections.
Q. Did Lee vote in elections ?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he ever discuss registration to vote ?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did he ever discuss working in a hospital ?
Q. Did he ever mention Marydale Farm ?
A. Say it again.
Q. Marydale Farm.
A. That is the name of a person ?
Q. No; of a place.
Q. Did he ever mention the name Louis Russell ?
Q. Are you familiar with the name Sergio Arcacha Smith
A. I heard this name somewhere before but I don't remember where.
Q. Do you know if you heard it from Lee ?
A. I doubt it.
Q. Do you think you have heard something since the assassination or prior to the assassination ?
A. I think so, after the assassination.
Q. You stated Lee discussed with you hijacking a plane to go to Cuba.
Q. Did he ever discuss that with anybody else ?
Q. Did he ever discuss his desire to go
A. I say no. How can I be positive? Not as far as I know of.
Q. Did he ever discuss his desire to go to Cuba with anyone else while he was in New Orleans?
A. I would not know that.
Q. Did Lee mention the Cuban Revolutionary Council
A. I cannot remember under such a name.
Q. It is also referred to as the initials CRC.
A. Well, that does not ring a bell either but when he went to Mexico he was planning to go to the Cuban chancellor so revolutionary--I don't know what kind of consul exists in Mexico.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss eating lunch while he was working at Walgren's drugstore ?
A. I thought he had his lunch on the grounds of the factory.
Q. Did he buy his lunch at the factory ?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he take lunch from home?
A. I don't recall that either.
Q. Are you familiar with the name Loran Hall ?
Q. Are you familiar with the name Lawrence Howard ?
Q. Did Lee ever mention the Carson City garage ?
Q. Are you familiar with that at all ?
A. No; where is it ?
Q. It is next door to the Reilly Coffee Co.
Q. Did you ever go to Lee's place of work at the Reilly Coffee.
Q. Why did you go there ?
A. Well, I just wanted to see where he works, just to see him during the day. I took a bus and I asked because I didn't speak English very well so I just asked for the name and they said no such a person worked there so maybe I got into the wrong building. So I never saw him there. went to some building and asked to speak with Lee and they said no person under this name worked there.
Q. Did you ask Lee about it that night ?
A. Yes: and he told me I had no business to disturb him at work so, that was that.
Q. You didn't tell him you were surprised that he was not at the company ?
A. I might have.
Q. What did he respond ?
A. I don't remember. I just remember he was angry with me for doing that.
Q. Were you at the Reilly Coffee Co to the best of your knowledge?
A. Well. maybe I was looking for the wrong thing, I don't know. I would not swear to it, OK ?
Q. When you were in New Orleans were you aware of people who were homosexuals ?
Q. Was that a concept that you were total unfamiliar with?
A. Well, I learned about homosexuals or what homosexuality is much later in my life.
Q. You were not familiar with that when you were in Russia, just what the concept is ?
Q. Thinking back on it now did Lee appear to have friends who. happened to be homosexual ?
Q. Do you think there is a possibility that he did and you just didn't know his friends or that you did not know that they were homosexual?
A. I would not know or have seen anything unusual about the be- havior pattern.
Q. When did you and Lee decide to leave New Orleans
A. Well, he decided that he will go to Mexico---I am sorry. Would you please repeat the question? When did we decide?
Q. To move back to Dallas and leave New Orleans ?
A. He lost this job. Do you want me to try to remember the month
Q. Well, what is the time sequence and the month if you can remem- ber it?
A. Well, I cannot remember the month but I know he was planning to Mexico and I was expecting the baby so Mrs.. Paine again offered a helping hand and I left New Orleans with her and Lee was left behind and he said he will follow pretty soon. He told Ruth that he will come over later.
Q. Did he plan to go to Mexico before you made the decision to leave New Orleans?
A. I don't recall.
Q. When he discussed hijacking the plane, at that time did you already decide to move back to Dallas?
A. I am sorry. I do not remember when the decision was made.
Q. Did Lee tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico?
A. He was disappointed in Latin America so he wants to go and try Cuba.
Q. Why did he choose Mexico?
A. He told me he was going to take the bus.
Q. Did you ask him about how expensive it would be?
A. If I asked, he told me it was not very much. I don't know the price?
Q. Did you think he would come back to see you in Dallas after he went to Mexico?
A. Well, to tell you the truth I did not think that I will ever see him again.
Q. How did you feel about that?
A. It was a pathetic situation.
Q. When Mrs. Paine took you back to Dallas, what is the next time you heard from Lee?
A. I recall--how correct I am I don't know but he came back and called from the Dallas--no. I think he took a taxi or somebody dropped him off at Paine's house.
Q. He didn't call you after them time you left New Orleans and before he returned?
A. I don't remember.
Q. When he went to Mexico by bus did he stop anywhere along the way?
Q. Did he ever tell you about his travels?
A. Well, he said that he did not succeed, they refused him.
Q. What was his attitude?
A. He was very disappointed.
Q. Who was "they" who refused him?
A. The consular at the Cuban Embassy.
Q. Did he mention any other embassy.
A. I would not speculate on that. It could be another embassy.
Q. Did he discuss the Russian Embassy?
A. I don't remember right now.
Q. Did he tell you anything else he did while he was in Mexico?
A. As entertainment?
Q. As entertainment or anything else he might do.
A. He discussed certain visits to certain authorities he had to see and that is all.
Q. Did he discuss any parties that he may have gone to ?
Q. Did he discuss any particular people at the Embassy ?
A. He mentioned the names of certain persons that he saw at the Embassy but I don't recall them.
Q. Did he return from Mexico to New Orleans ?
A. I think the next time I saw him it was at Ruth Paine's house.
Q. But did he tell you what he did after he went to Mexico?.
A. Well, I recall right now that he made the Mexican trip and came back to Dallas.
Q. So he took all his belongings from New Orleans to Mexico and then went from Mexico to Dallas ?
A. No; I took the belongings.
Q. So Lee had nothing left in New Orleans ?
A. Just a few personal things and clothing in one bag, that is all.
Q. So you believe Lee came directly from Mexico back to Dallas.
Q. How did he get there ?
A. Same bus.
Q. Is it possible that he returned to New Orleans before he came to Dallas?
A. It could be. I would not know about it or I would not remember that.
Q. Did he tell you of any places he may have been apart from Mex- ico on that trip ?
Mr. WOLF. We will take a 5-minute break. [Whereupon, at 3:08 p.m., a recess was taken until 3 :20 p.m.]
Mr. Wolf. We will resume. It is 3 :20 now and Mr. McDonald will be asking Mrs. Porter a series of questions for the next period of time.
Mr. McDoNALD. Thank you.
By Mr. McDoNALD:
Q. Mrs. Porter, after you left New Orleans it was your understand- ing that Lee was going to go to Mexico City.
Q. Is it your testimony that you did not see him again until he re- turned from Mexico ?
Q. After your return to Dallas, after you left New Orleans in ap- proximately September or maybe early October, do you recall going with Lee to the Texas State Employment Commission ?. Let me amplify that a little bit. Do you recall going with Lee and with some other people, a group of people, yourself and at the time you would have been pregnant and perhaps Lee and some other friends or other people ?
A. No; I don't recall that. You mean in Dallas ?
A. No; I don't recall. I might have been, I would not deny that.
Q. It would have been a 'government-type office where Lee would have gone to inquire about a job, where he would have sat down with' either a man or a woman at a desk and discussed his .job skills.'
A. I am sorry but I could not remember at all.
Q. I will just try to see if I can refresh your memory. Do you recall ever being m a government-type office where you waited for Lee to finish his business and you either stood or sat. in a waiting area, a wait- ing room, or near the wall
A. I am afraid not. I have to be with somebody.
Q. Was Lee's brother living in Dallas ?
A. No; he was living in Fort Worth.
Q. Fort Worth ?
A. I would not say that that didn't happen, I just cannot recall at all.
Q. Is it possible that Lee could have stopped in Dallas before he went to Mexico ?
A. I don't see why not. I am sorry. From New Orleans to Dallas and then back ?
A. Well, I would not know about that. He never said anything about it.
Q. But you were not with him if he did this
A. No; I did not see him from the time I left New Orleans and left him behind and the next time he was in Dallas.
Q. Was Lee's brother older than Lee
Q. How much older ?
A. Not very much. Maybe 3 years.
Q. Do you recall if Lee ever owned a leather jacket., a. black leather jacket, something we call like a motorcycle jacket with little stars on the lapel ?
A. No; he never had a jacket like that that I remember.
Q. Any kind of shortwaisted jacket that would be leather ?
A. Not shiny leather, no.
Q. Do you recall his having at any time a jacket that. would have had little silver stars ?
A. That would be more or less military kind of style ?
A. The only thing I noticed was a military raincoat that was a green- ish color as I recall.
Q. Did it have stars on it
A. No: I think it had something like that, a lapel with a button. No stars, but it was long.
Q. It was long. Knowing Lee as you knew him would it be out of character for him to say to someone else that--I will give you a hypothetical. If he had been talking to someone, say an employment counselor, about his dis- charge from the Marines, would it be out of character for him to say to that Derson, namely Lee, does not willingly subject himself to author- ity? In other words, he does not like to take orders from anybody?
A. I would not know what to say. how to answer this question. Since I did not. speak English, I do not know what he might have said. He could be, very rude sometimes and if that were described as the rudeness in his character, yes: I would expect that. As far as taking orders, I knew him personally and he didn't like to take orders.
Q. Did not like to.
A. No; but as far as toward me, just to somebody Or say to a stranger, I would not know.
Q. Did he speak Spanish.?
Q. Did he speak any other language other than--
A. I think he maybe knew a few words in Spanish.
Q. Do you know if Lee had ever attended the Texas State Fair?.
A. I believe we went to Six Flags Over Texas, it is an amusement park.
Q. You went there with Lee?
A. Yes; did I or didn't I ? I am sorry, I don't remember that. I do not remember ever being at the State Fair of Texas with Lee. I am sorry. I might be confused. Sometimes the period in New Orleans and the period in Dallas kind of get squashed together and it might have been an amusement park or a zoo somewhere else. It could be one picture in my mind.
Q. Do you know if Lee ever went for a job interview at a lumber company in Dallas?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know if he ever went for an interview at the Winer Lumber Co. ?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. Did Lee ever wear eyeglasses?
A. No; maybe sunglasses but not for reading.
Q. You never saw him reading with glasses ?
A. No; only with sunglasses.
Q. Did he ever talk to you or ever mention anything about joining a labor union; namely, the Teamsters.
A. I don't recall anything with that name.
Q. You testified earlier that at one time in New Orleans Lee had worked for his uncle at a dock. I think that was the testimony.
Mr. WOLF. The shipyard.
Mr. McDoNALD. The shipyard. I am sorry.
By Mr. McDoNALD:
Q. Do you know whether Lee ever drove a forklift truck that would lift boxes or something like that in a warehouse type situation Do you know if he had that kind of skill to drive what is called a forklift truck?
A. I would not know. See, for example, if I gave testimony that he was working for his uncle--now I do not recall if that is when we were married or if it was earlier, his job. I do not just remember now but I never saw him operate any kind of machinery or driving anything except maybe practicing on the car a few times.
Q. You mentioned that Lee spoke a few words of Spanish. What do you mean by that ?
A. Well, you and me might know what hello would be and goodby.
Q. Do you know how he learned?
A. Well, I think Lee was kind of interested in languages. He took time to study Russian and I would not be surprised if he was ever exposed to Spanish-speaking people he would pick up a few words from them.
Q. Was he the kind of person that liked to brag, that liked to say things about himself, to exaggerate?
A. I would say so.
Q. That he would try to impress people?
Q. When you were living in Dallas again after New Orleans in the fall of 1963, do you know whether Lee had any Mexican friends, Mex- ican-American or Cuban ?
A. I never seen them or met any of them. If he associated with Span- ish-speaking people, it is possible but I never knew about that.
Q. We are talking about a period of time from early October 1963 up to the assassination.
A. Well, we weren't together at the time. He was living alone.
Q. On Beckley Street ?
A. Yes; so I just saw him maybe once a week, the weekend, and he was lonely.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of during this time in Dallas that he ever attended Cuban political type meetings, groups of Cubans in Dallas ? Do you know whether he ever went to those kinds of meetings ?
A. Him and Michael Paine went to some kind of meeting that I know of but I would not know what kind of meeting it was.
Q. How do you know this ?
A. They went together.
Q. And it was a political meeting ?
A. More or less.
Q. The kind of meeting that he went to, did Lee agree with the philosophy being espoused by that group to your knowledge ?,
A. Well, what I recall right now that he went, he was kind of skepti- cal about it, whether he would buy the whole package or not. Not everything.
Q. During, this period do you recall what Lee's personal views were ?
A. Well, I am not a politically educated person so whenever they start to discuss something, that is not of interest to me, I don't listen to it, I don't get involved. I am sorry I did not answer your question.
Q. Let me just rephrase it. During, this time prior to the assassina- tion you said earlier that he was dissatisfied with life in the United States and wanted to go to Cuba. Do you know if he changed his views toward Cuba after he was refused a visa to go to Cuba? Do you know whether he changed his views to become anti-Castro ?.
A. He was bitter in not being considered to go wherever he had planned. This period everything was going bad. That is more or less normal life. He gave up all his silly ideas and we were going to be living together as husband and wife and raising a family and that he will keep the job. That is what I thought at the time.
Q. But the meeting that he went to with Michael Paine --
A. I don't think it has anything to do with Cuba or any kind of Spanish-speaking people or anything like that as far as I recall.
Q. What do you recall the nature of that meeting to be ?
A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't remember the name of the group that Michael Paine maybe was interested in.
Q. During this period of time did Lee ever mention to you the names of any of his friends or associates?
Q. Does the name Leopoldo sound familiar?
Q. How about Angelo
A. No. I heard the name Angela reading the newspaper articles sometime. The name will come up but that was long after the assassina- tion.
Q. Can you recall in, we will say, the week preceding the assassina- tion you were living in Irving--did you ever write a letter to Lee
Q. Did you ever write to him while you were in Dallas
A. Write where to ? When I was in Dallas
Q. Yes. When you were in Irving, do you recall writing a letter or letters to Lee addressed to him at Ruth Paine's house
A. I doubt it.
Q. Could you at that time write in English
Q. Can you recall ever writing to him in Russia?
A. I don't recall but the only letters I could write would have been in Russian.
Q. And if you did you would have had to have someone address the envelope for you in Irving.
A. I know the English alphabet because I studied French in school so I could copy the address from the Latin alphabet.
Q. Can you recall writing a letter to him
A. No. I don't see the purpose of my writing a letter to him because see him once a week. What am I going to tell him? We are fine? I doubt that I did it.
Q. Did you ever hear him
A. Unless it was a birthday card which is possible.
Q. When was his birthday
A. October 18.
Q. October 18. Did you ever hear the name, did he ever mention to you the name of a Cuban political group called June ?
A. No; these pamphlets that he had that said "Hands Off of Cuba." it was just a protesting phrase or the name of the organization. I do not know.
Q. I think we could say those pamphlets that he passed out in New Orleans, the Fair Play for Cuba, at that time in New Orleans would you say his views were pro-Castro?
A. Yes. As far as I know up to now he liked Fidel Castro very much.
Q. After he got back to Dallas, can you recall any conversations or remarks that he might have made that would have indicated that his views had changed? I know I asked you this before but I want to ask it again.
A. That is OK. Beside seeing him disappointed that he was well, maybe he was a little bit bitter. He might even--I am sorry; I would be speculating saying that he might have made the remark that he expected more, you know.
Q. Can you recall anything specific along those lines?
A. No. I must tell that most of his things he kept to himself because he didn't think that I was qualified to discuss all these matters with him.
Q. You mentioned just a minute ago about the meeting with Michael Paine and you made a comment about Lee's not being sure that he agreed or whatever. What did you mean by that? Could you explain that?
A. First of all they spoke English to each other and one would express one view and the other a different view. It was not argument, more or less peaceful discussion, but I knew it was some kind of disa- greement in point of view. I would not recall what he was for and against. Some kind of political rally. I don't. remember what it was all about.
Q. Do you know whether it involved Cuba at all or was it anti- Kennedy ?
A. No; it was not anti anybody. It was anti anybody.
Q. But it was political. You seem to be saying that it was some kind of political meeting.
A. I am sure now that it was.
Mr. HAMILTON. I didn't understand something you said. You said anti anybody.
The WITNESS. Well, like no words were mentioned. This is anti- government, anti-Castro. anti-Kennedy.
Mr. HAMILToN. So what you are saying, just so we will have the record clear, is that you don't know if the meeting was anti anybody; is that correct ?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. HAMILTON. Thank you.
By Mr. McDoNALD:
Q. After you left Lee in New Orleans did you ever hear from him or anyone else that he had traveled through Dallas on the way to Mexico ?
Q. Before you left each other in New Orleans, did he give you any hint that he might come by way of Dallas?
A. You have to go through Dallas in order to get to Irving.
Q. I mean come through Dallas to go to Mexico.
A. Oh, no, no. I never heard that.
Q. If he had in fact come through Dallas, would it be likely that he would have called you
A. Yes. I would not know that because I never heard him mention that he was going through Dallas.
Q. Have you ever heard
Q. Just in summary getting back to that Texas State Employment Commission, you can't recall ever going with him to an employment office ?
A. I do not recall at all and I would not-swear I never had been there either but I just don't remember.
Q. Can you recall any incident where--
A. Excuse me.
A. Now I am more familiar with Dallas than I was then so if the name of the street could ring a bell because I tried to establish the fact.
Q. Let me see if I can get the street. I will look for that street address if I can, but just one further question. Do you remember any occasion where perhaps you and Lee were picked up by his brother and perbaps his brother's wife in their car and you traveled to any kind of office or to go shopping or to do. whatever? Did the four of you ever travel together, go anywhere. together?
A. Yes; to the shopping center; Montgomery Ward.
Q. How about in Dallas ?
A. And something in Dallas that I can try to bring my memory- back. I see some stairs in a building that looks official. It is not the- church it is some kind of granite or something, but I do not remem-- ber sitting anywhere on a bench waiting for Lee.
Q. Did you stand up waiting for him ?
A. Somehow I just remember the steps.
Q. But you remember going ?
A. I don't remember anybody waiting in the car or how I got there; I don't know. What period of my life are you talking about
Q. This would have been in Dallas sometime soon after Lee got back from Mexico.
A. That means I have to travel from Irving.
Q. And it would be before he started working at the depository. In- other words. he was unemployed: he was looking for 5 job.
A. Well, I don't think so because somehow this building stays in my' mind. It was quite warm weather: it was like the summer. This could' be Fort Worth just as well instead of Dallas.
Q. Do you know while you were in New Orleans before you went back to Dallas and Lee went to Mexico whether he studied any books' on Mexico City or Cuba? Do you know whether he was reading on those?
A. He always was reading something and I would not know what books if they were in English. I do not recall what the names of the books were or what they were all about.
Mr. McDoNALD. All right. I have no further questions. Thank you.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. porter, I will continue asking the remainder of our ques- tions.
A. To go back for 1 minute, you recollect to get to United States, the Embassy in Russia loaned Lee money; is that correct?
A. What did you say?
Q. The. American Embassy in Russia, did they load Lee Money to get to the United States?
Q. Do you remember how much money was loaned to Lee ?..
A. Well, since I read about that later on, I think it was like $500 or so but I would not be sure.
Q. Where did Lee the money to pay back the Embassy.
A. Well, every week from his paycheck he put .some aside and paid them back.
Q. Did he pay back the same amount every week to the Embassy?
A. I would not know because I never handled the money.
Q. Would you be surprised if he paid a large sum of money back in one time to the Embassy ?
A. Yes; unless he saved it for 3 or 4 or 5 weeks.
Q. Other than that it would surprise you if he paid $350 back at once if he had been paying small amounts previously ?
Q. Do you have any idea where he could have gotten money of that amount ?
A. I would speculate that he borrowed from his brother to pay a big sum and pay his brother back. That is the only way I can see he would get the money.
By Mr. MCDONALD:
Q. I have one further question and that is I think this Texas State Employment Commission was located on Industrial Boulevard in Dallas where the Industrial Boulevard is right on the other side of the--it is across from Dealey Plaza on the other side of the triple underpass.
A. I still didn't think it was Dallas, I think it was Fort Worth. Does the building have steps with the middle rail in between? Some kind of rail in between?
Q. I am not sure: I don't know.
Mr. MCDONALD. OK. Thank you. Goodby. [In Russian.]
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Returning to Dallas, Mrs. Poter, when Lee came back from Mex- ico City did he move into the house with you at that time
A. Would you say it again.
Q. When he came back from Mexico City, you had gone to live with
Q. Did Lee move in with you at that time
Q. Where did he stay?
A. He stayed in Dallas. He rented a room and he said he would try to save the money that way so we can rent an apartment later on.
Q. How often would he come to visit you?
A. Once a week on the weekend.
Q. How did he get there ?
A. The neighbor who worked the same place would give him a ride.
Q. And he would stay for the whole weekend with you
A. Most of the time.
Q. Would he stay overnight on Saturday night?
Q. And then return on Sunday night or on Monday morning?
A. Probably Monday morning.
Q. Do you recall that the FBI contacted you approximately 10 days before the assassination ?
A. It was quite close to the assassination but I do not remember;10 days, 14 days, 1 week.
Q. Approximately. What did they talk to you about at that time?
A. Well, Ruth was the interpreter. As I told you, they asked me if I had been in contact to let them know.
Q. Were you surprised that they came to you ?
Q. Why were you not surprised ?
A. Because we had visits from the FBI before; at least that is what Lee told me, that they were FBI like in Fort Worth.
Q. Was this the first visit you had had since you returned to Dallas from New Orleans ?
A. As far as I recall.
Q. Did you find it unusual that Lee did not come home the weekend of November 14 ?
A. We had an argument. What was the day ?
Q. This is the weekend prior to the assassination. Was Lee home that weekend ?
A. I wish I could remember my testimony. I knew it. was unusual that he came just before the assassination.
Q. That was Thursday night ?
A. Not the weekend.
Q. That was a Thursday night is that correct ?
A. I think he missed the weekend before.
Q. Was that unusual if he missed that weekend ?
A. Now I don't remember what the circumstances were, what was the reason.
Q. Did he come to visit you most weekends ?
Q. Do you recall any particular weekends that he did come to visit?
A. Except the one that you mentioned.
Q. Except that one ?
Q. Did you speak to Lee on the phone that weekend ?
A. Well, I remember the incident when he gave me the telephone number where, he can be reached and I called him and they said nobody by this name lived there and I assume right now that that is the reason we had the argument over that he was hiding his name. Maybe that is the reason he was angry with me and didn't show up this weekend but I am apeculating now I have to read my own books.
Q. When he came on Thursday night. the night prior to the assassi- nation. were you surprised that he came that night ?
Q. He had not phoned you in advance ?
A. Net that I am aware. Could you describe his attitude that night.? Was he calm? Was he nervous ?
A. He was quite calm and he tried to give me indications that wanted to make up over the argument we have. I was also sur- prised that he come earlier than I expected him.
Q. Had he called you to let you know a day earlier ?
Q. About what time did he come?
A. Just after work.
Q. How did he get there?
A. With this neighbor.
Q. Did he discuss President Kennedy that evening, his visit to Dallas?
A. I tried to discuss it with him. I was very enthusiastic about it, over it, and I tried to get as much information from him as I could and he refused to talk about it.
Q. Was that unusual?
A. Judging right now, yes.
Q. Did he usually want to discuss President Kennedy?
Q. What would his usual comments about President Kennedy be?
A. Well, my impression was that he liked him very well.
Q. Did he mention Governor Connally that night ?
Q. Where were you when you first heard that President Kennedy was assassinated ?
A. I was at Ruth Paine's house and she is the one who told me.
Q. What were your thoughts at that time ?
A. Like everybody else's thoughts. It was shocking news.
Q. When did you first think that it might have been Lee who was involved in the assassination ?
A. When Ruth told me that the shots came from the school book de- pository it just looked like, somebody cut the string of my heart. I don't know how you describe this kind of feeling; it was very uneasy.
Q. Why would you think at that time that Lee would do it if, as you he liked President Kennedy
A. Well, I did not think that Lee would do it but, for instance, the thought crossed my mind. I don't know why the thought crossed my mind. Somebody but Lee was playing with the rifle and I can remember the incident with Walker.
Q. But General Walker was something ----
A. I believe it is not him so I went into the garage to see if the rifle was there. I knew that he had the rifle.
Q. That is why you were worried
Q. When you say you knew he had the rifle, you mean you know he owned the rifle.
Q. And did you go look if the rifle was there?.
A. I cannot describe the feeling, it would just come and go.
Q. Did you look to see if the rifle was still in the house
A. I do not recall that but I mean when the police came and asked me if my husband owned a rifle, I had to say yes and we went in the garage and the rifle was not there. The whole life passed in front of me and from then on it was a nightmare.
Q. Lee's attitude toward President Kennedy was certainly different than his attitude toward General Walker, am I correct
Q. Had you had any prior indication of any dislike for President Kennedy on his behalf ?
A. No; that is what is so strange about the whole event.
Q. When is the first time after you had heard of the assassination that you spoke with Lee ?
A. I believe it was in jail when he was arrested.
Q. And what did you discuss with him at that time ?
A. I was afraid to discuss the matter so it was just a general hus- band-wife conversation, just around the routine life about the house. He asked about the children.
Q. Did he discuss any people who might help him out of his prob- lems?
A. Not with me. He discussed that, him and his brother were talk- ing over the legal procedures of the matter, so I do believe now that he might have asked his brother to get in touch with somebody.
Q. What was the first time that the police came to your house ? That was on the Friday ?
A. When did it all happen, Friday ?
A. It was not Friday then. What did you ask me ?
Q. When was the first time the police came to Mrs. Paine's house
A. Quite shortly after the assassination.
Q. Were those the Dallas police or the FBI, do you know ?
A. Well, to tell you the truth, it was official people. They showed their badges but as I recall it was the FBI or police or maybe both.
Q. What did they do ?
A. Well, they asked to search the house.
Q. Did they speak to you or to Mrs. Paine or both of you ?
A. They spoke--I do not even remember. I don't think they had an interpreter. so she is the one that had to act as an interpreter. They just told me that I have to follow them to the police station for they have some questions to ask me.
Q. Did they search the house at that time ?
A. Yes; they looked around.
Q. How many police officers were there ? Were there a lot, or a few, or what ?
A. I don't even remember the number. Everything is so long ago.
Q. Did they stay a long time ?
A. Well, one second seems like a year sometimes.
Q. I know this is difficult for you and I am just asking for the best of your recollection.
A. OK. What was the question again?. How many people ?
Q. How many and how long did they stay in the house ?
A. Well, I don't think I can judge very nicely or correctly right
Q. Did they take anything with them at that time ?
A. I do not know. They just told me to get ready and dressed. I mean I didn't have a chance to change ray clothes. They told me to get the baby and follow them. I don't know if it was 15 minutes or 1 whole hour.
Q. Then you went down to the police station. What happened at the police station ? Did you see Lee that day ?
A. Yes; I did. I don't remember if I saw him. that day or the next day.
Q. Did they, ask you questions at the police station ?
Q. Do you recall how long they kept you at the police station ?
A. It seemed like forever.
Q. Were you alone ?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you have an interpreter or did Mrs. Paine go with you ?
A. Would you believe it? I don't recall the names of who was around me.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss with you when you were speaking with him the shooting of Officer Tippett ?
Q. Was that mentioned at all ?
Q. Prior to Lee s being arrested did he ever discuss with you, are you familiar with the name William James Lowery ?
Q. Did they ever discuss with you after he was arrested that .he had ever done undercover work? Did they say he was a person in Dallas who had been infiltrating the Communist Party ?
A. Who discussed with me ?
Q. Did Lee ever discuss that with you about informants within the Communist Party in Texas ?
A. I don't recall that. Once in a while the Communist Party was mentioned in the conversation but I do not remember when exactly, what period of our lives it was.
Q. What would he say about it, do you remember ?
A. Well, he said that, for example, the Communist Party here is not exactly illegal but they have a very difficult time to survive and the Communist Party in Russia is different than the Communist Party here and he was in favor of them.
Q. The Communist Party ?
Q. Did he ever discuss the Communist Party that you recall when you were in Dallas ?
Q. Did he ever discuss the Communist Party during this time in Dallas ?
A. Well, this could be in Dallas and in New Orleans but it was in America.
Q. Did he ever discuss informants generally, what his feelings were about informants?
Q. Who did you stay with that Friday night after you were done at the police station ? Did you go back to Ruth Paine's house ?
A. I think so.
Q. Were you left alone or were you kept----
A. There were so many people going in and out of the house I don't know who was who.
Q. After Lee was shot, do you recall how you first met Ames Martin?
A. He was an employee of this hotel where the Secret Service took me to stay for a while.
Q. How come you were taken to that hotel ? Did you want to stay with Mrs. Paine ?
A. I do not recall whose idea it was. After the assassination it seemed like everything went blurred and I do not know who was mak- ing decisions for me.
Q. Did you object to the Secret Service staying with you at that time ?
A. No; they were very nice to me.
Q. You liked them ?
Q. And they are the ones who chose that hotel to go to ?
A. I would not say that because I do not know whose idea it was. I did not choose where I go. Excuse me. Can we have a break, please ?
Mr. WOLF. Sure. [Whereupon, at 4:08 p.m., a recess was taken until 4:20 p.m.]
Mr. WOLF. We can continue at the present time and it is approxi- mately 4:20.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. Porter, we were discussing the Secret Service agents who were keeping you in protective custody at that time.
A. I want to express my thanks to the American Government or whoever appointed them to me; they were very helpful and very wonderful people.
Q. The Secret Service people ?
Q. Did they stay with you at your request or do you know if some- body suggested that they stay with you? '
A. I did not ask for them, because I didn't know what the procedure is supposed to be. I think they were appointed by someone.
Q. And you had no objections to their staying with you ?.
Q. And you stated that you met Mr. Martin at this hotel where the Secret Service people took you.
Q. And Mr. Martin was an employee at that hotel ?
A. Yes; I have been told he was, I did not know for a fact.
Q. Did Mr. Martin eventually come to be your business manager or representative in any way?
Q. And in what matters was Mr. Martin going to represent you
A. In what matters ?
A. Well, I had so many people around with advisers and whatever I forgot who suggested I was supposed to have a business manager so he volunteered.
Q. Did you know if he had any experience in that field ?
A. No: I didn't know about that.
Q. Did Mr. Martin ever tell you that he knew Jack Ruby ?
A. No: not that I remember.
Q. Did he ever discuss .Tack Ruby with you ?
A. Well, I did not speak English then so I don't know.
Q. Who would be your interpreter between yourself and Mr. Martin?
A. Well, one man from the FBI did speak Russian and was inter- preter during the time the FBI was questioning me and then it was a man from the Secret Service, I think Mr. Gupatza.
Q. And he would always be present when you spoke to Mr. Martin
Q. You could not speak to Mr. Martin if there was no interpreter.
A. Somehow we communicated but how I really don't remember, how two people communicate who speak two different languages.
Q. Did you speak English to him ?
A. By this time I was forced to pick up a few English words.
Q. So you knew some English?
A. I would not call this some English when, to give you an example, like you would say, "Give me an apple," you just maybe pointed to an apple or drew a picture or more or less sign language.
Q. Did you speak to him in English at all though that you recall
A. I don't recall.
Q. After Mr. Martin you came to be represented by a Mr. McKenzie, that correct ?
Q. How were you introduced to Mr. McKenzie ?
A. I do believe that Lee's brother, Robert, heard of Mr. McKenzie, through whom I don't know, and was recommended by him and he took me into his office.
Q. I see. Robert.
A. Robert Oswald.
Q. Robert is the one that took you to Mr. McKenzie's office ?
A. I think so.
Q. Was this after Mr. Martin no longer represented you ?
Q. And in your discussions with Mr. McKenzie did you ever speak English with him or did Robert Oswald do all the discussions with
A. Well, I guess I assume it was Robert who did the talking for me to my best interests.
Q. Did you ever discuss anything with Mr. McKenzie very much
A. I don't really recall because I think at that time I had a Russian- speaking friend, she was Russian. Kathryn Ford.
Q. Would she accompany you ?
A. I assume now that she was there, too.
Q. Do you remember ?
A. No: don't.
Q. If there was a meeting between Mr. McKenzie, Robert Oswald and yourself, you would not be able to participate in that, is that correct ?
A. Robert, I recall that like I, would be in Mr. McKenzie's office and Kathryn Ford would be present there.
Q. Mr. McKenzie ever introduce you to any of his other partners ?
A. Yes: he had an associate. I think his. name was Baird--no, I am sorry. I don't recall. I knew he was a younger gentleman.
Q. Did he ever mention a Wheater White?
Q. Is that name familiar to you?
Q. Did Mr. McKenzie ever tell you that his law firm had done previous work for Jack Ruby?
Q. Did Mr. McKenzie ever discuss with you Richard Nixon?
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. McKenzie the time Lee was going to go out and shoot Richard Nixon?
A. Well, to tell you the truth right now I don't remember how this information got into the Secret Service or I told him my own or somebody.
Q. Which information?
A. About the Nixon incident. I really do not recall right now how it got into the press or knowledgeable to you and everybody else.
Q. Well, you must have---
A. I don't remember who was the first one that I told that.
Q. But you told somebody.
A. Of course I did. Nobody cooked this up.
Q. Did a Mrs. Skotnicki?
Q. Yes; are you familiar with her?
A. I do assume that was Kathryn Ford's name before she was married to Mr. Ford. The name is familiar to me because her two children---
Q. Was her husband's name Stanley?
A. I never met her husband and if I did I forgot. She was not married to Mr. Skotnicki then.
Q. And to you recollection she was not married at that time?
A. Who? Mrs. Skotnicki?
A. It is the same person. When I met her she was Kathryn Ford. Before that she was married to Mr. Skotnicki but I do not recall his first name.
Q. But you do not know when?
A. I did not know her when she was married to Mr. Skotnicki.
Q. Did you ever meet her husband?
A. Mr. Skotnicki?
A. I hope we are talking about the same Skotnicki.
Q. I think so. Did you ever meet him?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Well, you later---
A. Maybe after the assassination sometime.
Q. Is this the Mrs. Skotnicki, did you buy her house one time and move into it?
Q. That is the one you live in?
A. I bought a paper from Mrs. Ford.
Q. So we are talking about the same person ?
Q. And you bought the house from Mrs. Ford ?
A. Yes; which will be the same as previously Mrs. Skotnicki.
Q. Correct. Did you meet any of the neighbors who were in that area
A. Did I meet ?
A. Yes, of course I did.
Q. Did you meet living across the street I believe a Mr. Johnny Griz- zaffi?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. What can you tell us about Mr. Grizzaffi ?
A. Well, not much. I don't know him that well but I was grateful, he gave me a whole can of salmon when I was expecting my son.
Q. What can you tell us about him ? The way you said, "Oh, yes," you seem to have some recollection of him.
A. Well, I don't know his persOnal traits but, you know, being in their house and I can describe him physically. He was a family man and his business once upon a time was next door to my husband's busi- ness so I had occasion to
Q. That is your present husband ?
A. Yes: I had occasion to see him. He owned a liquor store.
Q. Did Mr. Grizzaffi ever discuss Jack Ruby with you
A. Not that I remember.
Q. Did you ever meet any of Mr. Grizzaffi's friends ?
A. No; I met his children and his wife. We were living across from each other.
Q. I am now going to ask you a series of names again to see if you know these people or if Lee knew these people when either of you were living in Dallas at either time. The first name is Russell Matthews, also known as R.D. Matthews.
Q. The next one is Irwin Weiner.
Q. If you have heard of these names even subsequently, please tell us.
A. Oh. sure.
Q. Louis McWillie.
Q. Joe Campisi or Sam Campisi.
Q. Lawrence Meyers.
Q. Lenny Patrick.
Q. Barney Baker.
Q. Harry Hall.
Q. Hall, H-a-l-l.
A. I how Mrs. Hall, Leta Hall, but I don't know anybody by the name Mr. Hall.
Q. Alex Gruber.
A. I used to know a man named Alex living in Fort Worth but do not recall his last name.
Q. What did he do ?
A. I don't know what he did.
Q. How did you how him ?
A. Well, when I was visiting a friend in Fort Worth he was visiting her house and---
Q. When you were with who in Fort Worth ?
A. Leta Hall. I think she goes by Elena.
Q. Eleanor ?
A. The first name is familiar but I don't recall his last name.
Q. A Ralph Paul ?
Q. A Jack Todd or a James Robert Todd ?
Q. A Paul Roland Jones ?
Q. A Robert Ray McKeown ?
Q. An Andrew Armstrong ?
Q. George Senator ?
Q. Had you ever heard the name Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot Lee?
Q. Did Lee frequent any nightclubs or bars in Dallas at any time ?
A. I don't think so. Lee didn't drink so--well, I just assumed that" he never did because when he left the :house, for example, if he left the house and said, "I am going to the library,!' I cannot swear that he did not ever stop at it nightclub but knowing him as far as what kind of entertainment he would like it is just my personal opinion that he would not go and spend his time at a nightclub.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss the Dallas Police officers, what his attitude" toward the Dallas Police was?
Q. He would discuss with you the FBI, is that correct ?
Q. But he never discussed the local Dallas Police ?
A. No; one way or the other.
Q. One way or the other ?
Q. Did he have any friends as policemen that you knew of?
Q. You have spoken of George de Mohrenschildt before ?
Q. And you considered him one of your best friends in Dallas.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you work he may have done for either U.S. or foreign intelligence services?
Q. What did Mr. de Mohrenschildt do for a living?
A. He was a geologist by profession and I think he was working for some kind of an oil company then.
Q. Did he ever discuss with Lee going to work for an intelligence service?
A. I would not know that. I never overheard him say that.
Q. Did he ever discuss with you intelligence activities in Russia or ask you about them as general conversation?
A. When I knew George I did not know he was born in Russia or lived there at the time. I thought he was of Russian descent.
Q. But he knew you came from Russia?
Q. Did he just ever ask any general questions of you about intelligence activities inside Russia?
Q. What did George de Mohrenschildt talk about with Lee when they were discussing President Kennedy? Do you know what his attitude toward President Kennedy was?
A. Not really, but it was not hostile.
Q. I am sorry.
A. It was not hostile.
Q. Were you suprised to hear Mr. de Mohrenschildt had committed suicide?
A. Yes; shocked likely. Well, I did not see George de Mohrenschildt for the past many years.
Q. What was the time before his suicide that you either talked to him or saw him?
A. Well, it was many years before that and I stumbled over him and Jeanne one day at some kind of--it was a Russian movie showing somewhere and the Russians attended.
Q. Was this in Dallas or Fort Worth?
A. No; I am sorry. That was not the last time. I do believe it was the Russian Easter and Natasha Grizzaffi was giving the party and I saw Jeanne and George then. We didn't speak for a long time but---
Q. Have you heard anything about Mr. de Mohrenschildt's suicide aside from what you have read in the papers?
Q. Have you spoken to Jeanne sine the suicide.
A. No. It is hard for me to comprehend the character of a very lifeloving person to commit suicide and I didn't see the change of his moods or personality, so it was hard to swallow. In my mind he was a person that was not capable of doing that.
Q. You have stated Lee's attitude toward the FBI was one of hostility; is that correct?
A. Well, he always blamed them for losing the job.
Q. Which job was that?
A. Any job that he lost he thought that was because they were just, like he said, snooping around and maybe the boss did not lile the idea that he was in the Soviet Union.
Q. Would Lee ever provide information to the FBI?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You stated on one occasion you saw Lee discuss with Mr. Hosty outside the house for at least one-half an hour information, have a discussion that lasted at least one-half hour. What could have been discussed for that length of time if Lee was not giving information
A. Well, I would not know .what kind of question he might ask a person who might be under suspicion.
Q. But to your knowledge ?
A. He never discussed in detail just exactly what they talked about.
Q. To your knowledge Lee never volunteered information to the FBI?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. When did you first meet Priscilla Johnson MacMillan?
A. I think in 1964.
Q. And what were the circumstances of that meeting ?
A. Well, he had lots of approaches from different writers or publish- ing companies to write the 'book about and I did not want to or did I have the rights to do anything like that and I was approached by Priscilla MacMillian and then she was Johnson, or by Harper & Rowe and by telegrams or maybe it was a written request and I refused. Then one day she arrived in Dallas and was on my doorstep. I liked the person very much and never changed my opinion of her since then.
Q. How shortly after you refused that offer did she arrive in Dallas ?
A. I do not recall how many weeks or months. I did not agree right away.
Q. Were you turning down all the offers from all the other publish- ers during that time ?
A. It is not because of the money matter; it was just that I didn't think--well, it was such a shameful position I was in I didn't feel that I have any right to even discuss the things for me.
Q. What did you like about Priscilla Johnson that led you to decide to work with her ?
A. I like her physical appearance. I like the way she spoke Russian beautifully. She told me that she was living in Russia for a few years, I assume. She was a very pleasant person and her intelligence I was very much irapressed with.
Q. Did she ever discuss with you any work she may have done for the CIA?
A. No. I would never have believed that she did.
Q. She never discussed with you any such work
Q. Did she ever discuss the CIA with you?
A. No. We discussed so many things during the book.
Q. Did she ever ask you whether or not lee had worked for the CIA?
A. She might have asked during the interviews. She asked so many questions that she has to know the answer to.
Q. How soon after you met Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. MacMillan now, did you decide to allow, her and Harper & Rowe to be the publisher
A. Well. I do not remember how many days or 1 week formality would take but I think she would have been more than qualified to do a good job.
Q. You were with Mrs. MacMillan in 1964 when you discovered some bus tickets that Lee had allegedly used to go back and forth to Mexico.
A. I do not remember that at all.
Q. You do not remember that ?
A. No. It is not that I don't want to discuss it but it would be more confusing for you and for me and for everybody if I start to speculate because I don't recall how I found the tickets, period.
Q. You know that those have been found; you just don't remember how they have been found ?
A. If Mrs. MacMillan stated under oath that I am the one that showed her the tickets, that 'is enough for me. I take her word for it, but to remember that I have no recollection.
Q. You are aware that those have been found
A. I forgot about them until you mentioned them right now.
Q. When was the last time you talked to Mrs. MacMillan ?
A. Last night.
Q. Last night ?
Q. Is she a close friend of yours
Q. Concerning again the trip to Mexico, is it possible that Lee went with somebody else to Mexico and back?.
A. I don't see why not.
Q. Did Lee ever discuss going to Mexico with anybody?
Q. Did he ever discuss a minister or a preacher?
Q. Do you think Lee would have ever worked for a U.S. intelligence agency ?
A. Well, knowing Lee as little as I know of him' and the unpredict- able steps that he would take in his life, I cannot say anything that he might do, but as a person that I knew and then when I was working with Priscilla there was. So little I knew of him, I 'think as secretive as he was I would be surprised if he would take orders or be confining somebody. I doubt it. I don't know.
Q. Concerning the leaflets he distributed in New Orleans, Who paid for those leaflets to be made ?
A. I would not know. I have no idea. I thought that somebody just gave them to him to distribute around.
Q. Did he ask you to put your name on any of the leaflets ?
A. Well, he asked me to put my name on something but I didn't think it was those leaflets.
Q. Did you read those pamphlets when you first found them?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember if Lee used his own name on those pamphlets?
A. I do not recall if the pamphlets had been signed or just distrib- uted around.
Q. What name did they have on the pamphlets? Did Lee have his name on the pamphlets?
A. I do not recall that the pamphlets have any name on them. I re- member that Lee used to sign his name different than his real name on some things but which things they were I do not recall right now.
Q. In your conversation with Mrs. MacMillan last night did you discuss the bus tickets at all?
A. No. I forgot about them until you mentioned them a few minutes ago.
Q. And you don't remember whether they were found at this time ?
Q. Or who found them ?
A. Me and Mrs. MacMillan did not discuss about what questions the committee might ask, what to say, what not to say. The conversation was very personal.
Q. We are talking about the bus tickets. Do you remember where they were found or who found them or anything concerning their dis- covery ?
Mr. WOLF. Mrs. Porter, Gary Cornwell is now going to ask you a few followup questions.
By Mr. CORNWELL:
Q. In your conversations last night with Priscilla, did you discuss anything about the committee's work ?
A. Well, just told her that I am very scared. She said how did I like my lawyer and I said very well. She said, "Would you describe him ?
Mr. Hamilton not sure I want this in the record.
The WITNESS. Well, she just tried to cheer me up, you know.
By Mr. CORNWELL:
Q. Did you discuss anything about other witnesses who may have appeared before the committee?
Q. Nothing about the subject matter of our inquiry?
A. Priscilla never told me what she was asked here and I do not want to know. I do not jeopardize her reputation by even asking questions even though how curious I would be.
Q. You did find out that she had been asked questions?
A. I knew she testified, she had been called before the committee, yes.
Q. Nothing about what she had been asked or what she said?
Q. As I understood your testimony a moment ago, you first met Priscilla back around 1964.
A. I think so.
Q. And it was roughly in that time period that you also agreed--
A. 1964 and 1965. I don't remember exactly what month we met but we worked for many months together and we have been in contact ever since.
Q. That is also roughly the time period in which you agreed that you and she would work together on a book: is that correct?
A. Excuse me. I did not understand your question.
Q. Is that also the time period----
A. Are you talking about 13 years or a few months?
Q. No: I am talking about in 1964.
Q. That is when you agreed that you and she would work together on a book?
A. That is correct.
Q. Was there any formal agreement?
A. Yes; there was.
Q. Or contract?
A. There was a contract between Harper & Rowe and me and Priscilla.
Q. The financial terms in other words, whatever they were were they all ironed out at that time period?
Q. I am not interested in how much money you may have made from the book but I would like to know what, if any, control you had over the final form that the book might take as to the accuracy of it?
A. Well, I confided in Priscilla-are you talking about the finan- cial matters?
Q. No, ma'am, just the accuracy of the book. Did you have any control over that
A. Well, I trust Priscilla well enough or I would not start the job. The book was not designed to make something entertainment or just to make money. It was a therapeutic thing for me as well as I tried to explain to me or to people somehow--not just me: I just contribute very little to the book. It was up to Priscilla to fish out all the facts and everything and put them together some way.
Q. So the agreement--
A. I gave her the right to use her own judgment because it was her book.
Q. That was basically the question.
Mr. HAMILTON. Could I ask a followup question?
Mr. CORNWELL. Yes.
Mr. HAMILTON. Did you read the manuscript before it was published?
The WITNESS. I had offered to read the manuscript.
Mr. HAMILTON. But you did not read it beforehand?
The WITNESS. No.
By Mr. CORNWELL:
Q. And following that then, after you saw the book in its final form, did you read it in its entirety?
A. Yes; I did.
Q. With respect to the matters in the book that you have per- sonal knowledge about, and I take it there are some things in there you simply have no personal knowledge about, but with respect to the things that you do, did you find inaccuracies in the book or things that did not comport with your memory?
A. Well, as far as the facts that came from me or---
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. That is true but some conclusion that she has to come to on her own, maybe even analyzing my character, that was up to her to decide but the facts were not twisted.
Q. OK, So the facts then that you have knowledge of as portrayed in the book are accurate to the best of your memory?
A. Only the facts that concern my and Lee's life. I am not responsible for other characters, I don't know how true that is.
Q. I understand. At least the facts that concern you and Lee and that you had personal knowledge of after reading the book seemed accurate?
Q. And it would only be the conclusions or the inferences drawn from that that might be Priscilla's and might differ from yours, is that correct?
A. Yes; that is true.
Q. Then with respect to those conclusions and inferences, what about the book might you disagree with?
Q. Let me explain the reason why I ask the question.
A. It was long ago since I read the book and I am not going to read it again.
Q. The committee has a number of objectives, everything from evaluating the performance of our own intelligence agencies to trying to understand for sure what happened in Dealey Plaza on November 22 and of course trying to understand Lee and his per- sonality and his thought processes to the extent we can because the American public has a great interest in that. The last thing is really what I was wanting to know. What about Lee and his personality or his possible motivations, things that you might peculiarly have an ability to render an opinion on? Would you differ from that book on that?
A. Well, since the person is dead and I was not a mature person or a qualified psychiatrist to analyze his motives for doing so and so, it was a tedious job for the Warren Commission. All the report- ers and lots of curious people working on it, you are doing a vet hard job trying to put puzzles together. Priscilla did her best and an honest job of trying to put things in some kind of perspective that a normal person could understand and I guess anybody can do just that.
Q. Sure. The point is not whether--we are not trying to find fault with the book, all we are trying to do--
A. I am not defending the book.
Q. If you have a different view on those subjects because you wets one of the closest people to Lee, that is what we would like to know.,;
A. Well, I would buy Priscilla's conclusions. From my own personal experience I did not come up with anything different. Priscilla did not have the attitude to condemn or pronounce guilty from the first page, she was just working through the dark as well as I was and everybody else, so I would still, in my mind agree with that conclusion more than: the conspiracy theory because I do not know anything about the other matters. I do not know anything about ballistics, you know, to dis- prove that Lee didn't do it. I would like that very much but I know so little. Do you understand me?
A. Make a perfect picture.
Q. I think so. As I understand what you are stating it is that the. conclusions that were drawn in the book, even though Priscilla drew them on her own, you agree with them.
A. Well, She didn't just dream them up.
Q. I understand, but it was her right to draw the conclusions.
Q. And she of course wrote the book.
A. I did not give her the right but I respect her for doing a good job, too, and she was very honest. Some things were not very meaningful.
Q. Your opinions on the subjects are the same as hers?
Q. As set forth in the book?
A. No; not my opinions because she made some opinions from a psychology point of view. I don't know enough about that to make an opinion.
Q. Is there any aspect of the book which you have a different opinion on?
A. Like, for example, Priscilla was in a position to analyze. Maybe somebody will criticize her for being an immature psychiatrist but she tried to draw some kind of picture to compare me being without par- ents and him being without a father that might motivate us to be mar- ried to each other, but those traits of character it is not up to me to say she is right or wrong. I cannot assume that is correct.
Q. The reason I am asking the question again is we are trying to get an insight.
A. The facts were not twisted to meet somebody's theory.
Q. There are various ways to get an opinion about what Lee was all about and what happened, and one of them is the way Priscilla went about it which was to gather facts from a number of different areas and try to draw inferences from them. What I want to know is from your perspective do you agree or disagree with her ?
A. Yes; I agree with her because she didn't just take my word for it or my opinion on the matter, she compared them with somebody's statements which were completely unknown to me and somehow the puzzle fit.
Q. You were asked this question a moment ago but let me ask you to focus on it one more time. Lee's mother expressed the opinion that Lee may have had intelligence ties, U.S. intelligence ties, of some sort. Can you recall any specific conversations with Lee which shed light on the possibility one way or the other that he may have had such ties
A. I do not know any of those facts at all.
Q. Did he ever express either sympathy for or antipathy to any U.S. intelligence agency apart from the FBI that you have already described ?
A. Well, Mrs. Marguerita Oswald is entitled to her opinion as I am entitled to-mine and-I would love for Lee to be innocent more than anybody else, do you understand, but I do not know enough to make the opposite statement from what I am giving here right now.
Q. Did he ever express to you any desire to work for any Government agency?
Q. Incidentally, why did the book take so long to get into print from 1964 or 1965?
A. Well, it is not an easy book to write about, especially when you try to be so accurate and not just to bluff around because it was lots of research.
Q. There was no factor that caused that delay other than the process of trying to assimilate the facts ?
A. I hate to repeat myself but it is a hard message to deliver.
Q. Is that the only reason?
A. Yes; you don't try just because you have to write so many pages, a day, you have to work hard. Priscilla had personal tragedies in her life which put her in the mood to write. It was just a long process working at it.
Q. Is that fact that--
A. Excuse me for the interruption but when Mrs. MacMillan ap- proached me she was not concerned about money, or I don't know but she told me she just wants to do a very honest job to try to explain the things why Lee did it for the American people. Do you understand? While I did not phrase myself very clearly,. she thought, well, I was refusing to do the book but she said at least that much I owe to people to show a little bit of the inside of the person that is already there. Just as if I owe this much to history, I guess.
Q. Is it anything more than a mere coincidence that the book has come out during the time period that our committee has been working on it?
A. Well, it is just coincidence.
Q. Did you and Mrs.----
A. I think it is completely absurd how people can put two and two together.
Q. Did you and Priscilla ever discuss the timing of the publication of the hook?
A. Well, I hope this thing--she said. "Well, I still have some more work to do." and then she said finally "either do it or--." She did have a deadline but somehow I did not want--you don't push artists to go and paint a picture in a hurry. I was in a position to push her but didn't want to because I wanted a qualitative job.
Q. At the time that the book was finally sent to press did you and she discuss the fact that this would be a good time to publish it?
Q. Any discussion along those lines?
A. No; exactly the opposite. It was a bad time to pubIish 7 years later and she was very apologetic about it took her so Iong.
Q. You told us earlier a few moments ago that you presently have no memory of finding the materials, I believe it was in September 1964. which you cleared, among other things, the tickets to Mexico City.
Q. When did it first come to your attention that Priscilla said she. was there when, the tickets were found?
A. When this come to my attention ?
Q. Yes; when did that subject matter first come to your attention
A. The only time I think about it is when you were asking or some- body asked this question. I didn't understand your question, I guess.
Q. I believe there was a reference to it in her book.
A. There could be but I did not come here prepared to deal with that book and see what I am going to tell you.
Q. Is that the first occasion perhaps on which you had focused on the fact that she said she was there when you saw it in the book ?
A. If Priscilla said that--I mean I do not recall right now but she kept the records, whatever I told her before in our interviews and ] work and things like that, so I am sure she has approval of it. The thing is why should she put something in a book that I would not tell her. Who would tell her?
Q. The question was when did it first come to your attention ? When did you first note that she apparently was there ?
A. I still don't understand. Who was there, Priscilla ?
A. Where was she?
Q. When the materials were found.
A. Well, right now I don't recall by whom and how they were found and I never thought about the tickets until just a few minutes ago you asked me this question, so I cannot recall the time I found the tickets right now at the present moment.
Q. Did you see it in her book?
A. I read the whole book but I do not remember the details right now.
Q. Did you discuss it with her upon seeing it
A. No; you mean yesterday or--
Q. At any time after you saw it in the book.
A. We discussed many episodes from the book, you know, but I cannot recall which ones.
Q. So you don't recall ever discussing that part of the book with her on any occasion?
A. I would not swear to it that we did not discuss it. This would be one of the parts of the book that we did but I cannot remember right now.
Q. You told us earlier that on occasion when Lee would do some- thing which caused an expenditure of family funds there would be an argument over that.
Q. I believe at least at one point you described that sort of situation in connection with his purchase of the guns.
Q. I understand that the family budget was sort of marginal throughout at least 1963 at the time period we have asked you most of the questions about.
Q. Do you recall any discussion along those lines about the impact on the family budget in connection with his distribution of the pam- phlets in New Orleans?
A. You asked me a few minutes ago who paid for those pamphlets. It never occurred to me that they had been bought by Lee.
Q. That is the reason I asked the question.
A. I would not know that. I never questioned that because I assume somebody just gave him that to distribute.
Q. The thought was maybe I could jog your memory and there had been some discussion that now you spent your money on another foolish thing and he gave you a reply perhaps about who did pay for the pamphlets.
Q. Did he ever offer an explanation to you that someone else had bought any of the firearms, it is not going to hurt the budget because somebody else bought them?
A. I just freshly came from Russia and a lot of thin over there we don't pay for indirectly. I really never questioned that because
Q. At least he never made a statement to you to that effect?
A. No; or I never asked him about it.
Q. The committee has received some evidence that prior to going to Russia, Lee had spent some time trying to learn the Russian language, and that maybe he was not proficient at it, but at least at the point time at which he arrived there he had some acquaintance with it, enough to get along. Was that a trait of his which you observed on other occasions that when he got ready to do something he felt was important he spent a period of time preparing for it?
A. I would say yes.
Q. Do you recall him specifically making any special pre arations for the Mexico trip?
A. I don't recall them right now. Going back to say that Lee was always preparing for something he not always prepared himself, but he was quite calculating in that respect, and sometimes quite clever. He would masquerade somehow. or apparently did not know that much of what was going on inside of his head.
Q. Do you remember him doing anything specific to prepare for the Mexico trip?
A. No, I don't.
Q. As one example, do you recall him specifically acquiring any books on Spanish in order to be prepared to speak Spanish when he. got to Mexico?
A. I would not have remembered that but it would have been pos- sible. We have to speak. Maybe he would have bought a dictionary but I don't recall right now. It would not surprise me.
Mr. CORNWELL. That is all.
By Mr. McDONALD:
Q. In 1962, in December, you are living in Dallas, Tex. Christmas, whether Lee took any trips away from Dallas?
Q. Do you recall during that time period in December, before
A. Well, December. In December, Christmas No I don't think he left.
Q. Do you recall whether he was away from home for any period of time overnight?
Q. Where were you living at that time?
A. I assume in Oak Cliff.
Q. Specifically do you know whether Lee ever traveled to Florida?
A. Not that I know of, no. How would he travel to Florida? By bus, I guess. No.
Q. Do you recall him ever saying he had been to Florida?
Q. Do you recall during this period of time whether he discussed his interest in Cuba?
A. No, that was not the period that we were interested in Cuba.
Q. When did he become interested in Cuba ?
A. I think in New Orleans.
Q. Do you know during this period, we will say late 1962, whether he--well, your testimony was that he had no interest in Cuba at that point.
Q. Can you recall at all whether he traveled to Florida ?
A. If my memory serves me right, I never heard him mention Florida or know anything about him going to Florida.
Q. Did he ever talk about anti-Castro military operations ?
A. Not during this period. If you are interested in this period of time, no, but the New Orleans period it could be.
Q. Do you recall Lee ever telling you that he had been arrested during that period of time?
A. During December ?
Q. It is your best recollection that you can't recall him being away for an extended period of time?
Q. Would you remember that if he had been?
A. Well, let's figure out. How long does it take to get from Dallas to Florida, I assume by the bus ?
Q. By bus at least probably 2 days.
A. One way?
Q. Yes. And 2 days back. That is 4 days. I don't remember Lee being gone for 4 days or 2 days or 1 day.
Mr. McDONALD. All right. Thank you. I have no further questions.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. Porter, do you have any notes, letters, that you have kept that you still have from Lee? You said you have not kept a diary.
A. I never kept a diary.
Q. Do you have any other notes or letters or any other types of materials that would be--
A. Let's make this clear. You said I kept a diary.
Q. No; I said you never kept a diary.
Q. Do you have any other notes or material?
A. No; everything was confiscated. By any miracle if something was left, I don't know about that.
Q. Mrs. Porter, would you be willing to make your tax returns, tours and Lee's tax returns for the years 1969, and 1963 available to' committee?
A. Would I be able to ?
Q. Would you be willing to do that?
A. I can't, I was unemployed. How can I? I didn't work.
Q. But Lee at that time was employed.
Q. And I assume he did file tax returns that the Warren Commis- sion obtained. Would you be willing to make those tax returns avail- able to the committee?
A. I don't think I have them.
Mr. HAMILTON. I think before she answers that I would like to confer with her on that.
Mr. WoLF. Surely. Why don't I ask one other question first and then you can confer on a different subject.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. This is a very general question. Has any information been re- leased since 1964, for example, in the Warren Commission which op- erated that has changed your mind or your attitude about whether or not Lee may have been involved in a conspiracy and, for example, 2 or 3 years ago when the Senate released information that our Gov- ernment had been trying to assassinate Fidel Castro? A lot of people thought that kind of information was very significant. Has any infor- mation come out since 1964 that has changed your opinion whether or not he was involved in that conspiracy?
A. Well. I do not read that much about the assassination but I am curious like everybody else and I would like to find something that proved that Lee was innocent for my personal reasons. So I do read some things but they don't lead to anything, sometimes they even sound absurd to me. You know, there are Just so many theories that simply-----
Q. Is it still your personal opinion that he did not have associates or was not involved in a conspiracy?
A. That was my opinion.
Mr. WOLF. Thank you. Why don't we go off the record for a few minutes.
Mr. HAMILTON. I want to answer the question about the tax returns on the record.
Mr. WOLF. Yes; you may confer.
[Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., a recess was taken until 5:35 p.m.]
Mr. WOLF. We can go back on the record now and it is approxi- mately 5:35. I believe Mr. Hamilton would like to respond to a question we previously asked Mrs. Porter.
Mr. HAMILTON. I will let Mrs. Porter respond. Why don't you repeat the question you had about the income tax return
Mr. WOLF. Sure.
By Mr. WOLF:
Q. Mrs. Porter, would you be willing to sign a release to gie the committee access to Lee's tax returns for the years 1962 and 1963?
A. That is a better question. Yes; I have no objection whatsoever. The way you phrased your question first, I didn't understand what you wanted me to do.
Mr. WOLF. Thank you, Mrs. Porter.
Mrs. Porter. at this time we have concluded' those questions we have to ask you at the current time. We realize obviously after taking time to examine all your prior statements that you previously gave, that first of all you have testified to many bodies--the Warren Commission, the Garrison trial--and have given interviews to many organizations-- the FBI, the Secret Service and other people. As I am sure you are aware, various people have analyzed some of your statements and there are inconsistencies in some of the statements over time, and they are inconsistent, for example, on when you first saw the gun, or did he use aliases, or when you first knew of Lee's trip to Mexico, and did Lee practice shooting with the rifle as well as many other subjects that have been publicly documented. I would ask you at the current time if you would like to make any general statement that you wish about these inconsistencies as either, by way of explanation or any other type of statement you would like to make concerning these subjects or any other subjects? At a future point in time it probably will be necessary to examine you in detail on each of these prior statements.
The WITNESS. Well. the testimony I was giving to different people, organizations, was given at different times so as my memory may have collapsed at one time or maybe something came back, maybe the testimony will vary. At the beginning. if it is possible to understand for people, I am just a human being and I did try to protect Lee--that was my natural instinct that I followed. Some things I did not want to talk about because I tried to protect Lee. So they can hold this against me, there is nothing I can do about it. I had to protect myself too. I didn't have any home to turn back to. was not eligible or qualified to live right here so I really was trying to save my skin, to put it bluntly, but it was not for the reasons that I was protecting somebody. that I was part of any crime, that is not so. That was just a very human mistake that you make but it was not-- maybe legally you call this perjury. I don't know. But it was not because I was afraid that I might betray some secrets that I knew in order to be punished for. I don't know how to put this generally but I swear that I never worked for any government of any country. I was not aware of the crime that he was planning and I am sorry that all this happened like the rest of us suffer. So I don't think I can add any more.
Mr. WOLF. All right.
Mrs. Porter. That concludes the questions we will have to ask you today. It will be our responsibility to go back to our committee members and Congressmen who are not here today and discuss with them whether or not they would like to pursue questioning you at a future date.
The WITNESS. You mean tomorrow?
Mr. WOLF. No: it will not be tomorrow.
The WITNESS. I would like to make a request that I would prefer not testify publicly.
Mr. WOLF. We will inform the committee of that request.
The WITNESS. I still feel leery about the reporters, the crowd that is present. I cannot really concentrate on my answers that well.
Mr. WOLF. We understand that, Mrs. Porter. You are in the unique position, of course, of having known Lee better than anybody else currently alive.
The WITNESS. Well. if you have to repeat the same questions. maybe somebody else can make a statement about my answers. I would prefer that.
Mr. WOLF. Sure.
The WITNESS. Unless you have new questions to ask.
Mr. WoLF. We will inform our Congressmen of your position and would think be able to tell you in the very near future, probably within 2 weeks, what' the results of that committee decision will be. If you don't testify publicly, it may be that one of the attorneys again on the staff would either come to Dallas or you could 'come back here to have a session like this and it would be a much briefer session than today's was.
The WITNESS. Well, maybe legally you do have a right not to trust me. After all, I came from a Communist country. You don't know me from Adam. My testimony does not seem to be very consistent. Is that the words?
Mr. WOLF. Yes.
The WITNESS. Of course you have a right to doubt me .but it is a very uncomfortable position to be in that somebody would try to trust you and try to pin the tail on the donkey--please scratch that.
Mr. WOLF. We understand, Mrs. Porter. Your testimony though today was to the best of your ability to testify today.
The WITNESS. Yes; and every time I testify I try my best to help any committee that tries to get this matter cleared up.
Mr. WOLF. Thank you, Mrs. Porter. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. HAMILTON. I would like to thank you on the record for your courtesies to Mrs. Porter and to me.
The WITNESS. Thank you for your kindness to me, and I hope nobody holds this against you.
Mr. WOLF. You are quite welcome. Thank you.
Mr. CORNWELL. Thank you very much for taking your time to come here and answer our questions.
The WITNESS. I wish it was a more pleasurable circumstance to be on the record.
Mr. WOLF. I would like to thank Mr. Hamilton who has done this voluntarily through the District of Columbia Bar Association.
[Whereupon, at 5:40 p.m, the deposition was concluded.]
THE DEFECTOR STUDY