DONALD A. PURDY, JR., ESQ., Counsel, Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515.
ALEXANDER P. GRUBER, in proper.
P R 0 C E E D I N G S
MR. PURDY: We are about to begin a deposition before the Select Committee on Assassinations Of the U.S. House of Representatives. My name is DonaldA. Purdy, Jr. I am a staff counsel. I am designated, pursuant to House Resolution 222 and the Committee Rule 4 as designated counsel with power to take statements under oath.
We are presently in the chambers of U. S. Magistrate Venetta S. Tassopulos in the United States Courthouse, 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles, California.
Magistrate Tassopulos will now swear the witness.
MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: Would you state your name, please, for the record?
MR. GRUBER: Alexander Gruber.
MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: How do you spell the last name?
MR. GRUBER: G-r-u-b-e-r.
MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: Thank you, Mr. Gruber.As indicated, I am a United States Magistrate.authorized, pursuant to 28 U.S. Code, Section 636 (a) 2 and General Order 104 of this Court, which is the UnitedStates District Court for the Central District of California,to administer oath.
Do you wish to take an oath or an affirmation?
MR. GRUBER: It don't make no difference to me. I don't even know what it is all about.
MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: Do you mind to swear to God? Well, if you think -
MR. GRUBER: Well, I will swear to tell the truth.
MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: All right, just a moment. Well, I will
have to administer the oath, then, that you will swear to tell the truth.
Whereupon, ALEXANDER GRUNER was called as a witness herein and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: You may adjourn now to room -- is that correct? -- and the deposition will take palce.
(Brief recess. )
MR. PURDY: We are continuing the deposition now in Room of the United States Courthouse.
EXAMINATION BY MR. PURDY:
Q. I want to make sure that you understand the basic groundrules of the deposition. Do you understand that this statement is voluntary?
A. What is the matter?
Q. Do you understand that this statement is voluntary?
Q. Are you under subpoena at this time?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you understand that you have a right to an attorney present and that you can bring in an attorney at any time? Do you understand that?
A. I suppose so. I don't know. You are telling me.
Mr. PURDY: Let the record show that I am giving you a copy of our Committee Rules and House Resolutions 222, and 760. The rule under which the deposition is taken is Rule 4, which is on page 4 of this first section, and you are welcome to read at this time if you desire to.
THE WITNESS: Now you are getting me scared.
MR. PURDY: It is down there at the bottom left, page 4.
THE WITNESS: Yes, okay.
BY MR. PURDY:
Q. Have you read the rule and do you understand it?
Q. The entire record of this deposition will be tran- scribed and we will send you a copy of it so that you can make any corrections you may desire. Okay?
A. (Witness nods. )
Q. Would you indicate orally, so she can pick it up on the tape, by saying "yes"?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Finally, you understand that this deposition is taken under the penalties for perjury?
Q. Thank you. when did you first get to know Jack Ruby?
A. About 40 years ago. I don't know?
Q. Back when you were a kid?
Q. This was growing up in Chicago?
Q. You were both in the same neighborhood?
A. I didn't know him growing up in Chicago. I knew him when he was about -- let us see -- about 17 years old.
Q. How did you get to know him particularly well then?
A. Well, he came around the neighborhood. He didn't live in our neighborhood. He came around our neighborhood and started hanging around there. His father lived in the neighborhood.
Q. And had you known his father?
Q. Just as you would know the --
A. I knew his father better than I knew him.
Q. How did you get to know his father?
A. His father was a carpenter. He hung around the neighborhood, too. He was a drunk, a nice old drunk. everybody knew him. Papa Joe, they called him.
Q. Was he harmful or harmless?
A. He was harmless.
Q. When Jack Ruby came around, when he was about 17, did you become good friends with him at that time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What kinds of things would you do together?
A. Go to football games and stuff like that, fights.
Q. Professional fights?
A. I am a sports fan. Yes. Always have been.
Q. So you were both big sports fans?
A. I don't know about him. I know I was. He was a scalper.
Q. Referring to selling tickets?
A. Yes. Always -- always that I knew him, he was a scalper.
Q. Was that because he was short of money or he just liked it?
A. Well, that is the way he made a living.
Q. That is the way he made a living when he was --
A. Yes. He didn't work at that time.
Q. Okay. How did you make a living at that time?
A. I think I lived at home. I went to school. I had just got out of school.
Q. Was there any fighting in the neighborhood?
A. Well, we all went to fights. We used to fight a little amateurs. Not him.
Q. He didn't fight?
Q. Was there any fighting among each other in the neighborhood?
A. Well, it is a rough neighborhood. My neighborhood was called the bloody 20th, a rough neighborhood.
Q. Was Jack Ruby involved in fights in the neighborhood?
A. Jack Ruby didn't live in that neighborhood.
Q. Well, was he involved in fights in that neighborhood?
A. No. He was a docile person in them days.
Q. So you don't remember him ever being in fights in Chicago?
A. NO , NO.
Q. Did he do any other activities besides scalping that you knew of?
A. Well, I left Chicago.
Q. When did you leave Chicago?
A. When I was about 18 years old. I went to New York. I stayed there and I got married there, lived there about 12 years.
Q. Where did you go after New York?
Q. Where did you go after New York?
A. I think I came back to Chicago and opened up a wrecking yard and I only stayed there about a year or eight months or something. I didn't work out.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Out here.
Q. To Los Angeles?
A. In the Army.
Q. You went in the Army?
Q. And you served out here?
A. That was '42. I jumped all the way to '42. I was married then.
Q. After the Army, did you move to Los Angeles?
A. Yes. Well, I lived in Los Angeles before I went in the Army. My parents lived there since 1926.
Q. Where do you live now in Los Angeles? What is your present address?
A. 1016 North Orange Grove Avenue.
Q. Is that in what section?
A. Los Angeles.
A. Was Jack Ruby involved in any illegal activies in Chicago during the time you knew him there when you were both young?
A. Just like I say, scalping tickets.
Q. Did you live with him for a while?
Q. About how long?
A. Oh, maybe three, four months.
Q. Did he date at that time?
A. Yes. Yes, he was a hell of a ladies' man. I don't know what they liked about him, but he was a ladies' man.
Q. Something that he enjoyed more than scalping?
A. I guess so.
Q. Did he get to know any of the more prominent Chicago individuals in the neighborhood at that time?
A. What do you mean by prominent?
Q. Well, people that a lot of people knew.
A. I don't think so. He was just the average guy. He was no -- he was no real big man or -- just an ordinary guy.
Q. Did he ever collect debts for people in Chicago?
A. Not that I know of. That might have been after I left. I don't know nothing about him. I didn't see Jack Ruby from the time I seen him when I lived with him until maybe 15 years later.
Q. Where was it that you saw him the next time?
A. The next time I saw him, he owned a place called the Silver Spur in Dallas.
Q. Approximately what year was that?
A. I haven't got the least idea. Time is --
Q. You have, in your previous --
A. Now in there, I seen him fight. I seen him fight in that joint. I seen him take three guys on and knock them all cold. That is the truth.
Q. In your previous interviews, you have said that the next time that you saw Jack Ruby, when he owned the Silver Spur -- on one occasion you said 1947. On another, you said you thought it was 1953.
A. I ain't got no idea. If I said it, I didn't -- I wasn't sure.
Q. Well, he moved to Dallas in 1947.
Q. So did you have the impression when you saw himthat he had been there for a while or just a brief time?
A. Oh, he had been there a while, yes. I think he took over his sister's place. Yes, he had been there a while.
Q. So you think if you had to choose between 1947 and 1953, if you assume he moved --
A. I think I'd say '53, yes.
A. Because he seemed well-acquainted with everybody around there.
Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Lenny Patrick in Chicago?
A. Lenny Patrick -- that, I can't tell you.
Q. Did you know Lenny Patrick or ever meet him?
A. I have heard of him. I don't know him.
Q. You never met him?
A. I seen him once, but I don't know him.
Q. Did Jack Ruby know Barney Baker?
A. I don't know who Barney Baker is.
Q. You have never met him?
A. Never heard of him, even.
Q. Did Jack Ruby know Irwin Wiener?
A. Never heard of him either.
Q. Did Jack Ruby know Lewis Cuttner?
A. Lewis what?
Q. Cuttner-- an attorney in Chicago.
A. I don't -- I never heard of him.
Q. Do you know or have you ever heard of Dave or Sam Yarris?
A. Yes, I have heard of them.
Q. How did you come to hear of them?
A. One Of them lived out here. I know his wife.
Q. Do you remember which one that is?
A. I don't know. It is a nephew of his. I don't what their names are. The other one was supposed to be a gangster. '!He was supposed to be in with Lenny Patrick is what I heard. But the one I knew out here was -- was no gangster. He was a businessman.
Q. Is he living now?
A. No, he died. His wife is living, but he died.
Q. What is her first name? Do you know?
A. No, but her last name is Beal, B-e-a-l, something like that. He used to own a bar on La Brea, the Swanney Inn, I think.
Q. What was the nature of your visit with Jack Ruby in what you believe was 1953?
A. Just that I knew him.
Q. Did you intentionally go to see him?
A. No. Oh, let's see. In that year?
Q. It was the first time you had seen him since you were kids.
A. Yes. That year, I was going -- T was going East with another fellow. I don't remember what we were doing.
Q. Did you go to a wedding?
A. No, we were selling something on the road, me and this guy. I don't remember what. I think pots and pans.
Q. Were you going door to door or you had particular outlets you were trying to serve?
A. Well, we would sell them to anybody that would talk to us.
Q. Who was the person that you went with?
A. Some guy. I don't even remember his name. I don't even remember his name.
Q. You say you went East. Did you go to Chicago?
A. I was going to Chicago, yes.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in Chicago?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you go directly from Chicago to Dallas?
A. No. We stopped in Dallas on the way to Chicago. We stopped in Dallas on the way back; I didn't stop.
Q. Why did you go to Dallas before Chicago? It is not exactly on the way?
A. Well, we had gone that way. We had gone that way and I told the guy, "I know a guy here," and we stopped.
Q. So you didn't make a special trip to Dallas?
Q. Once you were in Dallas, you decided to call him?
Q. You didn't call him before you went there.
Q. Did you have any contact, either by phone or in writing, between 1931 and that visit?
A. No, no.
Q. Did you have any communication with any of Jack's family between that time?
A. No. The only one I knew was his father.
Q. You didn't know Earl or Eva or Sam?
A. No. I knew Sam later. I met Sam -- let's see. I think I met Sam in Dallas. I don ' t think I even knew him in Chicago.
Q. When would you have met Sam in Dallas, before or after the assassination?
A. Now that you mention it, I don't know where I met Sam. I don't think I met him in Dallas, even. I don't remember where I met him. In fact, if I bumped into him here, I wouldn't know him-- any of Jack Ruby's family, except his father.
Q. What did you and Jack talk about when you visited him in 1953? Did he tell you how things were going in Dallas?
A. I didn't have much to -- I don't think I was in there two hours at the most, an hour and a half. He got in a fight and that was it and we left.
Q. Was that the time he hit the three people?
Q. Was that unprovoked or --
A. No, I think he was right. Personally, I think he was right. He had this place where you go in and you buy set-ups and, say you took a girl with you and you were sitting there and these three guys were abusing the women and Jack told them --
Q. Were these employees?
A. Jack was talking with us and he says, "See them three guys?" He says, "I have warned them already two times." He says, "They go around and they grab guys' wives and girl friends and pull them out of the seat and they dance with them even if they want to or not." He says, "I ain't going to tell them again."
A.nd then it happened again. He says, "There they go again," and he went Up and he started fighting with them.
Q. How was his financial situation when you saw him in 1953? Was he doing well?
A. It looked like a real busy place.
Q. It looked like a decent place?
A. Yes. He had one of them high-class Western bands and it was a big place.
Q. How did you find him in Dallas?
A. Just by somebody telling me that he owned this. I don't know who told me, but somebody told me that he owned a place there.
Q. That was before you went?
A. It was common knowledge. Everybody that knew him knew he had --
Q. Oh. Common knowledge in Dallas?
A. No, in Chicago or whoever knew him.Anybody that knew him knew he had a place in Dallas.
Q. Well where was your home in 1953? It was in Los Angeles?
Q. And you stopped in Dallas on the way to Chicago?
Q. How did you happen to talk to people from Chicago about where Jack was in Dallas?
A. I don't know. if I talked to people in Chicago. I talked to people out here.
Q. Who out here knew Jack Ruby?
A. Oh, a lot of people knew him.
Q. Could you name some of them?
A. Oh, everybody I knew in Chicago knew him. Everybody I knew in Chicago that's out here knew him.
Q. Are there many people out here who came from Chicago?
A. We lived in one neighborhood. Everybody lived in one neighborhood.
Q. In Chicago?
Q. How many people moved out here from there, from that neighborhood?
A. Everybody I know. A lot of them died already.
Q. You can't remember the names of any of them?
A. If I went to Chicago, I don't think I would know two people, because they are all out here.
Q. Do you remember the names of any of the ones that moved out here before the assassination?
A. Yes, I remember a few, yes.
Q. Who are they?
A. The Betman boys, Solly Betman, Al Betman. They all knew him. Nobody was intimate with him because he didn't live in this neighborhood, see. I am trying to tell you he lived in another neighborhood.
Q. Eva lived out here for a while. Did they know Eva?
A. I never knew Eva. I never knew Eva--
Q. Did the other people from around here that moved from Chicago?
A. -- until I met her in Dallas the last time I was there. Eva worked with a bunch of people from Chicago in San Francisco. He asked me about a name. What the hell was that? Oh, Goldsmith or Goldstein.
Q. Frank Goldstein?
A. Yes. Now I didn't -- I knew him in '42 or '4-- when I worked in the shipyards in Frisco. He was in with the fellows from around Chicago. They all lived in one neighborhood in Frisco.
Q. And you knew him in Chicago?
Q. You just knew him in San Francisco?
A. I didn't even know he lived in Chicago, but Eve Grant told me that she worked with this Goldstein and, oh, about ten other guys. They used to go in crews. Everybody was broke in them days and they used to go out and sell newspapers house to house. What do you call it? Subscriptions -- and they would give them so much, just like people sell insurance.
Q. And that was in --
A. And all that crew was Chicago people. I wasn't there at that time. I came just after they quit and the war began. I had to start working in the shipyards.
Q. Did Goldstein know Jack Ruby?
A. Yes, I imagine he did. I didn't know Goldstein that good.
Q. For how long did you know Goldstein?
A. Personally, probably I seen him five times, six times.
Q. Did you have any business dealings with him?
A. No. At that time I don't know what he was doing, even. He didn't have no money. I think he was working in the shipyards too, but then he became a bookmaker. Then I heard he had money, but I didn't see him them.
Q. He did that in San Francisco?
A. Yes. Well, I didn't see him then. I left Frisco. We lived there one year.
Q. Which year, '45?
A. I can't remember.
Q. '45, somewhere in there?
A. I really can't remember. Let's see. My kids were --- my kids were about seven, eight years old. That's about 32 years ago. What year would that be?
A. Around there.
Q. Okay. You say you don't remember whom you went to Dallas with on that 1953 trip.
Q. How long did you stay in Dallas?
A. Just a couple hours. Just a couple hours. We stopped in and the fight kind of upset us and we went away.
Q. Did you do any business in Dallas?
Q. Did you try to sell anything there?
Q. But had you gone there to sell things?
A. No, I just stooped there to see Jack.
Q. Well, Dallas is --
A. We were going to sell stuff in any city. It didn't matter where we stopped.
Q. Did you try to sell things along the way too?
A. Yes. Gas stations and farmers and --
Q. So in other words, it didn't hurt that you went way out of your way on the way to Chicago?
A. No. Any place we went was all right.
Q. Was there anybody in particular you were going to see in Chicago or you just had come from there, so --
A. I really can't remember. I don't even remember getting to Chicago; I will tell you the truth. I am getting kind of senile. I don't remember what I ate yesterday.
Q. Did you know anyone else in Dallas in 1953?
Q. So you didn't have anyone else to look up?
A. I never knew anybody in Dallas, except him and his sister, and the first time I met her was the second time I came to Dallas, not the first time.
Q. Okay. So through this visit in 1953, that you say lasted just a couple of hours, you probably just saw him a couple hours.
A. That is all.
Q. Did you have dinner with him at his club?
Q. You just came into the club and --
A. Yes. And then the fight started and he was in the back room, washing. He was all black and blue. These guys kicked him and I didn't want to stand there no more.You know, I just left right then.
Q. Did you say good-bye?
A. Yes. I said to him, "I am leaving."
Q. Was he pretty much under control after the fight was over?
A. Jack was a loner -- I will tell you that -- with men. He was a loner, really.
Q. He kind of was on his own, then?
Q. He was kind of on his own, then?
A. Always. He always was, since I always knew him he always was. Even when he lived with us, he was a loner.
Q. Who else was living with you and Jack in Chicago?
A. Well, it wasn't -- they didn't live there, actually. Guys came around there. They didn't actually live there. We lived by the beach. Him and I lived by the beach and guys would come from the beach, change their clothes and go out to the beach and stuff like that.
Q. When was the next time you saw Jack Ruby after the 1953 visit?
A. That was the time -- I think that was a week before the President got killed.
Q. So it was November of 1963?
A. A week, two weeks, something like that, yes.
Q. What took you to Dallas on that occasion?
A. Well, now I can remember what happend. Now I can tell you, because it brings it back. I told Jack Ruby about a -- when I -- while I was sitting, talking with him, before this beef started --
Q. This is 1953?
A. Some guy told me about laundromats here. You see them all over now, but at that time there were none here.
Q. In Dallas?
A. In here, this city here.
Q. I see.
A. There were no laundromats. And then some guy in Inglewood -- I found out about it. I think it was a doctor and he had seven of them. And somebody told me about him; he heard about it and he says they are money-makers and nobody knows about it because it is a -- if you look at it, it looks like a place that is, starving. You know, you don't see -- so anyway, I investigated it and I found out about it, but I didn't have no money of my own. And when I was going through Dallas, I told Ruby about it, then not knowing -- but I found out later -- his brother, Sammy, opened four of them places and made a living out of them. That is what he did for a living. That is what Jack told me the second time I seen him.
Q. He told you that in 1963 about the laundromats?
A. No. I told it to him in '53, the first time I seen him.
Q. Okay. You talked about the laundromats the first time you saw him in Dallas, which was 1953?
A. Yes. Now the second time when I was there, he called up his sister-in-law and I don't know if they were feuding or something, but she wouldn't tell him where Sammy was and he told -- he told her that the guy that toed him about the laundromats was here and he had a better thing than the laundromats. On the way through, I seen a bunch of cars standing in a line and I followed these cars. It looked like a movie drive-in and they were all going in these quarter wash. You could -- you know, where you wash your car for a quarter. That never was out here either. So I walked up to a guy and he told me about it. He says -- he says, "I run this. I have this territory." So I says, "Well, I am from California. So he says, "Do you want to get the concession for these...." So anyway, he took me where they manufacture them and I talked to the owner and he give me a bunch of -- what do they call them? Booklets, anyway.
Q. Brochures or something?
A. Brochures about his business, you know, about this business.
A.nd I got a friend there, owns a store and got money, owns a business, and I told him about it. He says, "Gee, it sounds like a good thing," and he was in with a builder. So he says, "I will write the guy a letter," and he filled out, told him he is worth a half a million dollars, the other guy; they owned property and everything. And he told me if they get it, he would let me run it and I would be a partner. They would put up the money and the builder would build the things and they would buy the equipment. Anyway, the guy sent him back another brochure about his education. The guy got mad and tore it up and he says the beck with them. He says, "Anybody could have a half a million dollars and a guy wants to know how much education." He says, "I don't want to talk to him." And that was the end. Anyway, that is what I told Jack about these here things. They hadn't ever come out here. The guy took me around --
Q. What was his name? Do you remember?
Q. They guy in Dallas --
A. These here --
Q. -- who told you about the --
A. It wasn't in Dallas. This wasn't in Dallas. I think it was in -- before I hit Dallas, some state before I hit Dallas.
Q. Oh. So you told Jack about it when you got there?
A. Yes, that I had seen it and I showed him the brochures. The guy give me quite a bit of them and I showed it to him and I told him, "Maybe you would be interested in that. You could start it here."
Q. Where did you talk to him about that? Was that at the club?
Q. What club was that? Was that the Carousel?
A. Yes. I stayed across the street for two days, in that hotel right across the street. I think I stayed there two days.
Q. How did you happen to go to Dallas in 1963?
A. I was on my way to Los Angeles.
Q. You were coming from New York?
A. I was coming from Chicago.
Q. Why were you in Chicago?
A. I really don't know. I have brothers there. All my relatives were there at that time.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection to know that you had gone to a wedding in New York and were coming back?
A. From a wedding? No. That couldn't be true because I would have had my wife with me. I might have said that, but that ain't true.
Q. Do you remember stopping in Joplin, Missouri to check on this carwash?
A. That is where it was, Missouri. That is where it was.
Q. Okay. Well, how did you happen to go to Dallas from Joplin, instead of going directly to Los Angeles?
A. I don't really know. I will tell you -- the car that I was driving broke down.
A. In Joplin, Missouri. I was driving a Cadillac across for somebody, for some company.
Q. Were you with anyone?
A. I was alone And I figured I would just go see Jack, I guess. I don't know why I went there, really. I can't remember. I just went there.
Q. Did you have any business in Dallas?
A. Maybe I went to tell about this thing. I don't know.
Q. Did you have any business in Dallas?
Q. Did you tell him about this carwash business to interest him in it?
A. Yes, actually him. I didn't know about his brother. I really didn't know that his brother had the laundromats. I didn't know that.
Q. You mean since you had seen Jack in '53--
A. Maybe I did know that. I don't know.
Q. -- since you had seen Jack in '53 that maybe he had money that he might want to invest in something like that?
Q. So that car broke down. Did you drive that car from Joplin to Dallas?
A. No. They give me a different car. The man there where -- that took the car in to repair it -- that could be easy retraced because the Cadillac dealer is still in business
Q. What dealer?
A. I hear him on the air all the time.
Q. In Los Angeles?
A. Yes. I think he is in Culver City or somewhere, somewhere like that on the west -- he is the guy that advertises he has got all the cars on the roof. I don't know if you have heard that advertisement.
Q. Did you let Jack Ruby know in advance that you were coming to see him in 1963? Weren't you --
A. I don't even know where to send him a letter.
Q. Weren't you afraid that he wouldn't be there when you went there?
A. Didn't make no difference, really.
Q. Well, Dallas is pretty far out of the way from Joplin to Los
A. I don't know. What time of the year was that? Was it winter?
Q. November, fall.
A. Well, probably I went that way on account of the cold or something. I went the southern route. I don't know. I really don't know.
Q. But it is your present recollection that you went just to see Jack?
Q. Was Jack Ruby surprised to see you?
A. Not over-much so. I guess a lot of guys dropped in on him.
Q. This was only the second time you had seen him in 30 years.
A. Yes. Well, he didn't -- I don't remember how he reacted, truthfully. He didn't throw hisself all over me, if that is what you mean.
Q. Did you visit him in his apartment or did he visit you in your motel?
A. I never seen his apartment and he never seen my hotel room. I just visited him in the club.
Q. You say you were there maybe two nights?
A. Two days, yes, two nights, whatever it was.
Q. Did you go to the club just one time or more than once?
A. I think I went there every day I was there.
Q. So you think it was at least two evenings you went there?
Q. How long did you stay each evening?
A. Oh, once I went to eat with him.
Q. At the club?
A. No, we went outside to some restaurant. I don't think he had food in the club. I don't remember.
Q. Was the restaurant nearby?
A. Yes, I think it was. We walked over. I think it was in the hotel.
Q. Did you go with anyone else?
A. No, just him and I.
Q. Did you discuss that business, the carwash business idea, with anyone else --
Q. -- in Dallas?
A. No. I don't know nobody in Dallas.
Q. When you were talking to Jack about it, did he talk to anyone else? Did he call anyone about it?
A. Called his brother.
Q. His brother Sam?
A. Sam. And then his wife answered. She wouldn't put him on the phone. I don't know -- like they were feuding.
Q. So you didn't meet with Sam then?
Q. Did you ever meet with Sam about it?
A. Did I ever talk to him about it?
Q. Did you ever meet with him about it and talk with him about it?
A. NO. I don't think I knew him. I will tell you the truth. I might have seen him once in my whole life.
Q. Was there anything else that you and Jack Ruby did on that visit to Dallas besides eat and spend some time at the club?
A. Nothing, no. I never seen his house or nothing.
Q. Did he try to interest you in any business deals?
A. No. The only thing that happened while I was there - he had trouble with the two guys next door to him. He asked me if I -- he told me -- here is the way he explained it to me. He said that they all had amateur nights and they were turning pro and they wanted -- they didn't want the amateurs no more and they had agreed that they would not use no amateurs. They would take girls that belonged to the union or something. I don't know what it was. And he says, "Now that I quit and I got professionals," he says, "they still got the amateurs." So he asked me if I knew any union people in LA that could intercede because -- I don't know -- they were union houses and while I was there, he called New York, some guy he knew -- asked him if he could help him.
Q. Do you know whom he called in New York?
A. No, I don't. No, I don't. I don't even know if he called a union guy or who he called. Now most of the time that I was there, Johnson was there, the guy that worked for him. I think I talked more with him than I did with Jack because Jack was always doing something, talking to somebody on the phone or --
Q. Was that Joe Johnson, entertainer?
A. No, no. This guy worked for him. Is that is name, Johnson?
Q. Was he white or black?
A. Black. Black. He handled the money for Jack and everything. When we would go out, when Jack would close that place Up, this colored guy put the money there and the gun there, leave it on the table for Jack to take to the bank.
Q. Do you remember whether it was during the day or at night that Jack called New York about the union problem?
A. Was it the day or the night?
Q. Certainly, if he called the guy at the office, he would have called during the day.
A. Yes. I don't think he called the guy in an office. I don't really know. I don't know: It was night. I am pretty sure it was night.
Q. Did he get any letters or telegrams about the union problem while you were there?
A. No, nothing. Then he had a beef, too. He had to go to court while I was there.
Q. Was that with one of his entertainers?
A. Yes. She exposed herself or something and he kicked her out.
Q. Had he wanted to fire her anyway --
A. I don ' t know.
Q. -- because of her big salary?
A. I don't know. I never seen the girl.
Q. He never said that to you?
A. Well, no. He told me -- he told me she -- she tried to -- he said she's trying to close this place up. Maybe they had a financial dispute and then he said she was trying to get him closed up. That is what his story was.
Q. Do you remember Jack calling Bobby Faye in New York City about the AGVA problem?
A. Could be. I don't know who he called, absolutely I don't know.
Q. Did you ever know Joe Glazer in New York?
Q. Do you know if Jack called him?
A. I wouldn't know. I don't know the name of the person he called. I wasn't that interested, I will tell you, to listen to his conversation, but I know he called New York.
Q. Was he pretty upset about it? Was it hurting his business a lot?
A. Oh, yes, he was upset about it.
Q. Was it hurting his business?
A. Yes, he cursed them people and all that. He was -- I don't know if it done anything to his business. I didn't see much of his business. I will tell you the truth.I don't think I hung around there all the time.
Q. Well, when you say you talked about him discussing the problem with the union, you said that he and the two people next door -- Abe and Barney Weinstein?
A. I don't know them. I just knew that there were other places along --
Q. The competitors?
A. Yes. I didn't know them.
Q. You got the impression that the competitors had agreed with Jack that they would all stop the amateur nights?
A. Right. Right.
Q. Why would they agree to something like that?
A. I don't know. I don't know why .. I don't know.
Q. Did you have the impression that Jack had communicated directly with his competitors about it?
A. Not while I was there. He might have before because they -- that was a -- already had passed all that when I come there. He was trying to get help.
Q. Did you know Janet Conforto?
Q. Janet Conforto.
A. Is that a man or a --
A. Never heard of her.
Q. One of the entertainers he was having problems with.
A. What is her name?
Q. Janet Conforto.
A. You know, I got her picture at home on that little postal card, but it don't sound like that name.
Q. Was it Little Lyn?
A. I wouldn't know. I would have to look at the card. I got it at home.
Q. Did you see any police officers in Jack's club while you were there?
Q. Did he ever mention how his dealings were with the police?
A. Never. He told me he was in good with -- oh, I will tell you what happened. He did tell me about the police. He said he had a fight with some ex-fighter and he took a pistol. The guy called him up, called him dirty names, Jew and all that there, and told him to come down to some restaurant downtown. And all the employees heard it or something and when he walked out, they called the police and when Jack got there, the police took the pistol away from Jack and Jack beat the hell out of this guy.
Q. The police just let him do it?
A. Oh, yes. They let him fight fair.
Q. Did you get the impression as to whether or not Jack was having any problems with police enforcing rules very strictly?
Q. Or problems with curfews?
A. My idea of what he -- that he was in with all the police, that he had done them favors and -- I don't know, but if you own a bar, any bar in any city of the United States, you cater to all the police because they are the ones that close you up if there is a beef in your place or something, so you cater to all of them in every city of the United States, so I guess he was in with the police.
Q. What else did you and Jack discuss besides the union problems and this business opportunity?
A. Well, he told me -- oh, he told me about his sister's place, the other place, and we went over there.
Q. The Vegas Club?
A. I guess that was it. It was a different type of place, dancing, just dancing, that's all, with a Dixieland band or something like that, and that is when I met Eve. That is the first time I ever met her.
Q. Was her club going well?
A. I don't know. There didn't seem to be any people in there when I came there.
Q. Did you go there during the week or on a week-end?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was Jack's club going better than hers?
A. Well, he didn't complain about his club. I don't know.. I don't even -- I remember one time I saw a little something. I don't go in for that. I might have walked out while it was going on or something. I don't remember.
Q. How did Jack's financial situation differ, if at all, between 1963 and 1953, when you had been there before? Was the club going worse? Was it going better? Was it a higher quality?
A. This was a different club.
A. This was a higher quality club. I don't know? I would call it a higher quality.
Q. Was it your impression that he was doing better than he had been?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Did he complain at all about money?
A. No. No, he didn't.
Q. Did he have any ideas as to some things you should invest in?
A. That I should invest in? I didn't have no money to invest in anything, so --
Q. What was his reaction when you suggested that he might want to get into this carwash business?
A. Well, right away he got on the phone and called his brother, as soon as I showed him or explained everything, told him how the people were waiting in line to get in this joint. It really looked like something. There was a line about two blocks long waiting to get in this place. I think it was the first One because the man that opened it was standing there. I spotted him right away. You know, he was dressed up. He was an elderly fellow and he was watching the proceedings.
Q. Did Ruby mention that he might file a lawsuit against his competitors?
A. No, no.
Q. Did he mention that he had gone to New York City or would go to New York City to try to do something about it?
A. No. No, he didn't discuss that with me.
Q. Did you discuss your past experiences in Chicago at all in the 1963 visit?
A. I wouldn't really know. I wouldn't remember.
Q. Did you get the impression that Jack had visited Chicago on occasion in the previous years?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he discuss why he moved to Dallas?
A. Well, the way I heard it -- he had trouble with his brothers, the older one.
Q. Hyman or --
A. They were in business together.
Q. Hyman or Earl?
A. Earl. I think it was Earl; I don't know.
Q. Earl Products Company?
A. Yes. They had some kind of business and I guess Earl was -- had the most authority in there and they paid Jack off and kicked him out or something, bought him out or something. That is when I heard he went to Dallas. I don't know who told me these stories. You meet people in your lifetime. I mean you are talking about a lot of years.
Q. Do you know why he went to Dallas?
A. Well, I guess to get in with his sister. I think his sister couldn't handle these guys. You know, they got rough kids there in Dallas.
Q. Had she had some trouble there?
A. I don't really know. I don't really know. Maybe she told me that. I don't know.
Q. Did Ruby mention any plans he had for either new clubs or new businesses or anything like that?
Q. Did he mention any goals that he had?
A. Any goals?
A. No. No. The only thing he really told me about was the trouble with these guys, that they agreed to do one thing and they changed their mind and that was his big problem.
Q. Did you understated that the union had changed the rules or just that the competitors --
A. No, these -- that they made an agreement between them. That is the way I remember it. I don't know.
Q. So he was mostly mad at them?
Q. Was he mad at anybody else?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Why would he call somebody in New York, if his competitors in Dallas had broken an agreement with him?
A. I don't know. Through the unions, I guess. These unions work all together.
Q. Do you know or did you know anyone associated with that union, the American Guild of Variety Artists?
A. (Witness shakes head. )
Q. What else did you do in Dallas on the 1963 visit? Did you go anywhere else? Did you see any shows?
A. I probably looked around the town. I don't know. I don't remember, really. I will tell you the truth; I don't know.
Q. Did you meet any of Jack Ruby's friends?
A. No, no. Met a couple of girls in the club and this colored fellow, that is about all.
Q. Did you spend a lot of time with Jack Ruby those two or three days?
A. I think I spent most of the time right in the club.
Q. And you said that he --
A. Probably slept late because I stayed late there and--
Q. You had said earlier that he spent a lot time tending to business while you were there.
Q. So would you say you .had a lot of time to talk him?
A. Well, he was doing things. I don't remember now, but he was doing a lot of things while I was there, filling boxes with Cokes and telling this guy what to do and all that. I mean I didn't bother him.
Q. What contacts, if any, did you have with Jack after you left in 1963?
A. Just telephone conversations.
Q. What were the circumstances surrounding the first contact and when was it?
A. It was -- when I left them, he asked me -- on the marquee, he bought letters, you know, about this big. He said he bought them through an agency that -- the factory was here in L
A. I think I still got it at home. He gave me a sample letter and asked me could I get for him at cost over here, and he told me which letters he wanted, you know, what he should use mostly. And I went up to the place and they told me they don't sell individuals, that they sell direct to these outlets. And he had a dog for me and I didn't want to take the dog then because -- I don't remember why, because the car wasn't mine or something. I didn't want to dirty the car. But he said he would send him to me as soon as he got a box, or something to ship him in. Well, then he called me and the FBI -- I told then that. They could have verified it at the time. He called me about 20 minutes to a half-hour after the President was killed, but I seen it on TV and I happened to see it.
Q. Well, let me ask you this: prior to the call on the day of the assassination --
A. Yes. I never heard --
Q. -- between the time that you left Dallas for Los Angeles and the day of the assassination were there any phone calls?
A. No, not that I remember.
Q. Didn't you have to call him to tell him about the letters on the sign?
A. I might have called him for that. I don't remember.
Q. Because the record indicates that on November 17th, 1963 in the evening, you called him at 9:28 at the Carousel Club--
A. Could be.
Q. -- and talked to him for eight minutes.
A. I told him I couldn't get them signs.
Q. There is no indication as to what you discussed.
A. Probably that is all I could discuss with him. That was it.
Q. What was the plan about the dog? When you left, did you just have the impression that it was going to show up one day or were you going to --
A. No, no, no, no. He gave the dog to some actress or something, some person -- I don't know -- lived in the hotel and they couldn't keep him in the hotel and they guy's wife was complaining. The dog was eating her shoes and her socks. So he gave him back to Jack. Now Jack had his own dog, the mother of this dog. In fact, the dog just died about eight months ago. I had him all these years and you know, I started playing with this dog. I said, "Gee, they are nice dogs." he says, "Well, if you want one, you can have this one here, the little one," and I told him that I would love to have him, but I couldn't take him with me. If he would ship him to me, would Day the expense, which he did -- not he did, but that guy Johnson did, I think.
Q. So you expected that one day you would get a notice that the dog had shown up?
Q. He wasn't going to call you that it was coming or write you that it was coming?
A. I think he was in jail already.
Q. No, I mean when you left Dallas what was your understanding as to when you would hear about the dog next?
A. I don't know. I don't really know.
Q. But you had the impression that he was going to ship it to you?
Q. And so that you would get it -- you didn't have to anything. You didn't have to send the money first, did you?
A. No, no. I don't think I ever sent him any money. He just shipped it and that was it.
Q. Okay. So you checked on the sign, the letters for the sign?
A. Yes, I went to the company.
Q. And he was going to do something about shipping the dog. Those were the only two things that were left up in the air?
A. That is right.
Q. Was there anything left up in the air about the carwash business, that Sam would call you or you would call Sam?
A. No, no.
Q. That was just kind of dropped?
A. No conversation about that.
Q. Did it look like that would --
A. Because he had the brochures. He could have done -- he could have done that hisself. He didn't talk to me about it.
Q. So it wasn't a question about him going into business with you?
Q. It was just you gave him the brochures and --
A. I didn't have no money. In fact, I was telling somebody else -- I told the man at that wash that I had somebody in LA that might out up the money if the proposition looked right to him. I says these people do them kind of things. They are builders and--
Q. Were you hoping that Sam would be interested in investing money in that kind of a business?
A. It didn't make no difference to me.
Q. It wasn't going to be a situation where you would run it and he would invest the money?
A. No. I didn't even know Sam, as I told you.
Q. Okay. The call on November 17th, 1963 -- what is your best idea as to what that call would have' been about? You had called him --
A. When I called him?
Q. At the Carousel Club at 9:28 p.m.
A. I probably told him that I couldn't get them things, them letters.
Q. Did he ask you to do anything else about that?
Q. Did he mention the union problem he was having?
Q. Did he mention the dog?
A. I don't know. I can't tell you for sure.
Q. Do you have any recollection of how his attitude was? Did he sound different?
A. I don't remember that call. I will tell you the God's truth. I don't remember that call. If I called him, that is what I called him for. I don't remember even talking to him. Now the second time I remember, but that time I don't remember. It ain't clear in my mind what I talked to him about.
Q. That would have been a Sunday night.
A. Yes. Well, that don't bring back nothing.
Q. Okay. You mentioned the call shortly after the assassination.
Q. Who called whom?
A. He called me.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He told me about the dog, I think. I don't know if he mentioned the letter, but I think he talked about the dog, and he never mentioned, until the end of the conversation. Then he says, "What do you think of somebody shooting the President? Ain't that a terrible thing?"
A.nd he started crying. He started crying.He says, "I can't talk to you," and he hung up.
Q. So it is your belief that it was a fairly brief phone call?
A. Yes, it was a brief phone call. And I told the FBI at the time, if they want to verify that, my wife called me from work and told me about it and I says, "Yeah, I know about it." I told her a guy called me from Dallas and told me about it and I says all of a sudden he started crying on the phone. And my wife told all the girls in the place about this Ruby. They didn't know Ruby. I told the FBI at the time, I says, "If you want to verify, go over to my wife's place and ask these girls. They were there at the time my wife called me to tell me about it."
Q. Did Ruby mention anything besides just the assassination or did he mention how he felt about the President?
A. I can't remember his exact words now, but I know he felt real bad about it. He cried and hung up. He couldn't talk. I don't remember the exact conversation now.
Q. Did you say he mentioned the dog in that call, too?
A. I don't know. I don't remember.
Q. Did he mention the carwash business?
A. Oh, that call was -- he mentioned the dog, yes. That call there, he mentioned the dog.
Q. And he said he was going to send the the dog as soon as he could?
Q. Did he say what was holding him up?
Q. Did he mention the carwash business?
Q. In your interview in 1964, you said that he did discuss the carwash business in that call.
A. And if I said it, he did. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember?
A. I don't see why that is so important if he said it or if he didn't. I don't remember.
Q. You sent Ruby a letter in prison. Is that correct?
Q. Approximately how long after he shot Oswald was that?
A. I think he was in prison for a months already when I sent it. I got a return letter from him, too, at home.
Q. Basically what did you discuss in the letter?
A. Just that I was sorry he got in all that problem.
Q. Did you thank him for the dog?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you save a copy of the letter that you got?
A. Yes. I got his letter, yes.
Q. You have his letter. What did he talk about?
A. Can you believe I forgot what it says in the letter? I haven't looked at it in so long. I showed it to these two fellows.
Q. Al and Joe?
A. Yes. They read it. I gave it to them to read. I should have brought it with me. I haven't looked at it in so many years I don't remember what it says, only that it was a very nice letter.
Q. Did he mention in there any of his reasons for what happen?
A. No, no.
Q. Do you think you could send us a Xerox copy of that letter?
A. Think I could do what?
Q. Could you send us a Xerox copy of that letter?
A. Could I send you a Xerox copy? Where are you at?
Q. I can give you our address, the Committee. Did he call you at all from prison?
A. No. I didn't know he could call.
Q. Did you ever visit him there?
A. (Witness shakes head.)
Q. Did you go to his trial?
A. (Witness shakes head.)
Q. Could you indicate by saying "no"?
Q. All right. Did you do any favors for Ruby, held raise money for the defense fund or help get him a lawyer?
A. Nothing, nothing. No.
Q. Did any of the family ask you to?
A. No. I didn't see his family.
Q. Did you ever, at any time, loan money to Jack Ruby or did he ever loan money to you, ever?
A. Not that I know of. Not that I know of.
Q. When you saw Jack Ruby in 1963, did he mention that he had been to Cuba?
Q. Have you ever been to Cuba?
Q. Have you ever known anyone who had business dealings in Cuba?
Q. Did Jack Ruby ever mention any of his dealings with the Dallas Police Department to you?
A. Just that he was friendly with all the police; that is about all.
Q. Did he mention a Lieutenant Gilmore?
A. He didn't mention nobody by name because I wouldn't know their names anyway. He never mentioned anybody by name.
Q. Can you remember any other unusual events at the Carousel, other than that one time when he fought the three men?
A. That wasn't the Carousel. That was the Silver Spur.
Q. Oh, that was in 1953?
Q. Were there any unusual events that you saw in 1963?
A. In the Carousel? No. He seemed to open that place like you do a ball game, like with the National Anthem, but he did something else. He said something. I don't remember what it was, something like "for the United States," you know.
Q. So he introduced the program --
A. Yes, before it started.
Q. -- with kind of a patriotic theme?
Q. Did that strike you as a little strange?
A. It did for a joint like that. Jack Ruby was a strange guy. To me he was a strange guy.
Q. Do you know or have you ever known James Breen or Bunny Breen who would have been in Los Angeles?
A. No. I know a Breen in Chicago -- I knew. Or not Breen, Brim. No, I don't know no Breens.
Q. Have you ever met or do you know of a man from Los Angeles named Jim Braden or Eugene Harold Braden?
A. (Witness shakes head)
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever met or do you a Morgan H. Brown from Los Angles?
Q. Do you know a Harry Olsen now living in the San Francisco area?
Q. Do you know or have you met Earl Scheib?
A. Earl Scheib, the paint man?
Q. No? Could you state --
A. No, I never met him in my life.
Q. Thank you. Did you ever meet or know anyone who knew John Roselli?
A. Who is John -- John Roselli, the gangster? I don't know him.
Q. Did you ever know or have you ever met Harry Hall or Harry Hailer?
A. Yes. I know, Harry Hailer.
Q. How do you know, him?
A. Oh, let us see. How did I first meet Harry? One the ball games, I guess. He used to come around and bet around the ball game. I used to go to the ball games.I told you I am a sports fan.
Q. What city was this in?
A. Right here. I didn't know him from Chicago.
Q. Los Angeles?
A. I didn't know him from Chicago. Oh, I will tell you where I met Harry Hall. Barney Ross took me with him to Chicago and on the train was Harry Hall and that guy that works for Milton Berle, still with him. He is on Milton Berle -- they went to school together or something. Us four were on the train, Harry Hall. That is how I first met him, Harry Hall. He was going to get the -- he was going to make a music festival, I think, in Frisco. I think he did, too.
Q. Do you still know him now?
A. I haven't seen Harry Hall in I don't know how many years. Over ten years I haven't seen him, more than that.
Q. Did you ever discuss with him the fact that you both knew Jack Ruby?
A. No, not that I know of.
Q. Did you know that Harry Hall knew Jack Ruby?
Q. Did you know that Harry Hall had been connected with Dallas?
Q. Did you know that he had placed some big bets, taken some big bets from H.L. Hunt?
A. Well, I knew Harry Hall was a con artist. He did that with a
lot of people. I have heard stories -- so many stories about -- you could write a book about Harry Hall. Everybody knows about him who has been around a little.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he had met Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. Did who, Harry Hall?
Q. Harry Hall.
A. No. I never heard of Harvey Oswald until the shooting, when he shot him. Then I --
Q. Right. But you don't think Harry Hall ever mentioned him since, that he knew him?
A. No. I haven't -- I don't think I saw Harry Hall after the President was killed. I saw him before then.
Q. Did you ever see him in Dallas?
Q. Where would you have seen him, other than on the train, out here in Los Angeles?
A. Yes. I used to go to the card room. He was there. In fact, I owned the card room at that time, right over there on Fifth and Flower.
Q. Was that in the late '50's or the early '60's.
A. I imagine it was in the '60's. I used to be the general manager of the Veterans Cabin and we had a little card room around the corner, on Fifth there. We used to cards there and he would come in there. That is the last time I seen Harry.
Q. Have you ever known anyone other than Jack Ruby from Dallas?
A. I don't know anybody in Dallas. Never knew a soul there. Didn't even know his brother, Sam.
Q. Did you know whether or not Jack Ruby was the sole owner of his club or did he have a partner?
A. I don't know. I never asked him that.
Q. Did you know a Ralph Paul?
Q. Did you know George Senator, his roommate?
Q. Did you know he had a roommate when you visited in 1963?
A. No, no. The first time I heard of it, when I read in the paper.
Q. Did you know or do you know of Lawrence Meyers?
A. Never heard of him, even.
Q. Did you ever know a Harry Urban?
Q. Or Benny Binion?
A. Benny Binion -- Las Vegas?
Q. In Las Vegas now, yes.
A. Well, he has been in Vegas ever since I know him. Inever heard of him outside of Las Vegas.
Q. He left Dallas in 1947.
A. I didn't know him.
Q. Were you aware of his continuing connection with Dallas, even over the years he has been in Las Vegas?
A. No. I don't know him personally. I just heard of him. I heard he went to jail for income tax or something.
Q. Did you know or did you know of Lewis McWilly, a friend of Jack Ruby's?
A. Never heard of him.
Q. Did you know Russell Matthews, R.D. Matthews?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you know Irving Mazzei, M-a-z-z-e-i, associated with AGVA in Los Angeles?
A. What is AGVA?
Q. It is the American Guild of Variety Artists --
A. No, I don't --
Q. -- the union Jack was having trouble with.
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you know or do you know of Mike Shore?
A. Mike Shore. Is he dead?
Q. No, he is in Los Angeles.
A. Mike Shore. I have heard that name. I don't know.
Q. He was in public relations.
A. No, I don't know him.
Q. You mentioned earlier that you met Eve through Jack, Eva Grant.
Q. Which visit was that on, '53 or --
A. The second one.
Q. The '63 visit?
A. The last one, yes.
Q. Was she sick at that time?
A. No, she was in that other place. I don't know if she was sick, but she was in that other place.
Q. Was she about to have an operation or did she just have an operation when you were there?
A. I think I heard of something like that, yes.
Q. And you obviously don't remember visiting her in the hospital.
A. Oh, yes. Yes, I did visit, yes. Where was that, in Dallas?
Q. In Dallas.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How did you happen to visit her in the hospital?
A. I don't know. Jack took me there or something. I don't know.
Q. Was that where you first met her, in the hospital?
A. Yes, yes. Yes. See, I forgot about that. Yes, I did meet her in the hospital, now that you mention it.
Q. What contact did you have with Eva after that?
A. Well, nothing here. Nothing in Dallas. But then when she come here --
Q. Well, did she call you shortly after the assassination?
A. Who, Eva? No.
Q. Do you remember her calling you within ten days of the assassination?
Q. Do you remember her calling to thank you for visiting her in the hospital?
A. I don't remember. She might have, but I don't remember.
Q. Okay. So you got to know her when she moved out here?
A. Yes. She started coming around my house for a while and she is a little dingy. She says to me -- .she says to me one day, "I am not going to come around because your wife is jealous." She is a big, heavyset woman -- my wife is jealous of her. So she quit coming around, but she did come around a couple of months ago or a month ego. She was over to my house.
Q. What was that? Just --
A. Just about a month ago.
Q. Was there a particular reason?
A. I don't even remember what we talked about.
Q. Was it about the TV special?
A. Oh, that is what it was. Oh, I will tell you what she talked about. She wanted to know if I could get anybody to help her collect money and she found out my son is a lawyer.
Q. Collect money from whom?
A. From the -- -she said she didn't get enough money or something for the picture, something like that.
Q. Did you have any contacts with her anywhere besides Los Angeles and Dallas?
A. No, not that I --
Q. Did you have any contacts with her in Chicago?
A. Not that I know. I never seen her in Chicago. See, I was away from Chicago -- let me see -- from around '29. Then I came back -- I don't know what year, '35 or something. I had this little business. It didn't work out and I came out here and I went to work in the shipyards. That was just before the war, before we went into the war, and then I went in the Army.
Q. You had stated earlier that prior to the assassination you didn't have any direct contacts with Sam Ruby about investing in the carwash idea. Did you have any contacts with him about it afterwards? Did he call you or suggest it later?
A. Not that I remember. I know -- I will tell you what I do remember. Eve one day called me, when he come out here, to ask me if I knew any business he could go in. I had washed my --
A. Yes. I had washed my hands of him because he wouldn't -- I says, "No, I don't know nothing." If I did know, I wouldn't have told him.
Q. Because of his brother?
A. No. At the time we told him about, that day his wife didn't even want to answer to talk to us.
Q. Oh, that is right. When you called to --
A. To tell him about the carwash.
Q. Why wouldn't his wife let him talk to you?
A. I don't understand, unless Jack and her had a beef. You know, maybe he was hanging around the place or something. I don't know.
Q. She must have been afraid that somehow Sam was going to lose money in the deal.
A. I wouldn't know, really. I never met his wife. I don't know what kind of woman she is.
Q. What contacts have you had with Earl Ruby over the years?
A. On Jack?
Q. No, with Earl.
Q. With Earl Ruby.
A. Who, me or --
Q. Yes, you.
A. I never seen Earl Ruby.
Q. Had you ever talked with him?
A. Not that I know of. Not that I can remember. I don't know what reason I would have to talk to him about.
Q. Did he ever call you about Jack's defense fund?
A. Jesus, I don't remember. I don't think so. He don't even know me.
Q. You have never met him or talked with him?
A. Never, no.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of any criminal activities that were going on in Dallas when you visited there?
A. I didn't know of any.
Q. Did you know or did Jack Ruby, mention Joe Campesi?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Or Joe Savillo?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Do you know of Erwin Wiener? I think I asked you that.
A. No, I don't.
Q. You don't know Allan Dorfman, either?
A. The only one you mentionad that I know is Harry Hall.
Q. Do you know Frank Matula?
A. Who ?
Q. Frank Matula --
A. NO, I don't.
A. NO, I don't.
Q. You have been associated in the past years, before you retired, in the scrap metal business. Is that correct?
Q. That is in Los Angeles?
A. Yes, Santa -- I was in Santa Maria for a little over a year.
Q. And you didn't have any dealings with Frank Matula in the scrap metal business?
A. Why? Is he in the scrap metal business? I don't know.
Q. Yes, he has been. But you didn't have any dealings with him?
Q. Did you ever know Jimmy Hoffa?
Q. Never had any indirect communication with him?
Q. The reason I asked was that Frank Matula had been in the scrap metal business in this area, allegedly working for Jimmy Hoffa and I wondered whether there had been any pressure, direct or indirect, on your conduct of your business, you know, in the scrap metal business.
A. I had a small yard in Santa Maria.
Q. So you didn't get any outside pressure about it?
Q. Do you know Brady Parton?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know of him?
A. (Witness shakes head)
Q. To your knowledge, was Jack Ruby ever involved in any criminal activities in Chicago or Dallas, other than killing Oswald?
A. Well, if you want to call scalping -- that is all I know he ever -- he was only a kid when I knew him in Chicago.
Q. Are you familiar with Abraham Zuckerman?
A. Yes, I remember him.
Q. How did you know him?
A. He lived in my neighborhood.
Q. Did you have any dealings with him, either direct or indirect, after the time that you left Chicago?
A. I never had no dealings with him at any time. In fact, I don't think if I bumped into him I would know him. I think he is dead altogether, isn't he?
Q. I am not sure.
A. What was that name again? Maybe I got the wrong name.
Q. Zucky, the Bookie, they called him.
A. Yes, Zucky.
Q. Do you remember calling him on the phone in' 1963?
A. I never called him. I don't know him.
Q. Did your wife know him?
A. No. My wife is in New York.
Q. The record indicates that you or someone using your phone called Zuckerman three times in the fall of 1963. Do you have any explanation for that?
A. My wife's sister's name is Zuckerman. Unless you got the people mixed up -- I don't even know the person you are talking about here.
Q. There is also a record on October 30th, 1963.
A. Where did they call, Chicago or New York? I called Zuckerman the day before yesterday. That is my brother-in-law-- a hard-working kid.
Q. I think Zuckerman -- certainly Zucky the Bookie was out of Chicago.
A. I don't know him. I don't know him.
Q. Do you know: anything about the allegation that Ruby had to leave Chicago because he had a significant debt that was due?
A. I wouldn't know because I wasn't there in them years. I didn't even know what was happening in Chicago. I lived in New York.
Q. So who is the Zuckerman that might have been the one in the 1963 phone records? That would be your brother-in-law?
A. My brother-in-law's name is Zuckerman.
Q. And what is his first name?
A. That is funny. I said I know him. He is my brother-in-law.
Q. Was he related to Zucky the Bookie?
A. No, no.
Q. Were they both from Chicago?
A. No. My brother-in-law was born in New York and I don't think he was out of New York, just to visit me here.
Q. Is it possible that he would have called you collect, your brother-in-law would have called your wife collect?
A. No, no.
Q. Because somebody by the name of Zuckerman called your number collect on October 30th, 1963.
A. Called my house collect? Zuckerman? I don't know.
Q. I believe you in effect stated this, but was your brother-in-law in New York in 1963, living there?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Do you know if your brother-in-law knew Jack Ruby?
Q. Did your wife know Jack Ruby?
A. No. She knows Eva Grant, because she come around the house. She don't know Jack Ruby.
Q. Do you have any more information about a phone threat you received on November 25th, 1963, other than that which you stated to the FBI?
A. Well, I didn't receive the phone -- my son received it, the lawyer, the one that is a lawyer. He received it. He was in the house at the time.
Q. Do you had anything else to add about it or was there any follow-up threat?
Q. Where were you when the President was shot? You were in Los
A. I was home in bed.
Q. Were you also at home when Jack Ruby shot Oswald?
A. Yes, I was at home, yes, the whole time, yes.
Q. Were you sick? You said you were home in bed. Of course, I guess the Los Angeles time would be a couple of hours earlier.
A. Well, I can't sleep at night, so I sleep late during the day.
Q. Did you call anyone following your learning that Ruby shot Oswald?
A. No. My wife called me right after that. Just as Ruby hung up, my wife called me.
Q. What did she tell you when she called?
A. Now what are you talking about, when the President was shot?
Q. Well, both. First, when the President was shot. Your wife called to tell you about it, but you were watching TV already. Is that what --
A. Yes. I don't know if Jack told me and then -- I think I was watching TV when he called.
Q. Did you have the occasion to call any relatives or friends long distance right after the President was shot?
A. To tell them about it? I don't think so.
Q. Or to discuss it.
Q. Did you have the occasion to call anyone, local or long distance, after Jack shot Lee Harvey Oswald to talk about it, to mention the fact that you knew Ruby?
A. To make a long distance call to tell somebody?
Q. Or a local call. Did you call somebody, "Hey --"
A. Yes, I know what you mean.
Q. Because you said that a number of people from Chicago that knew Ruby were in Los Angeles, so I would think you might have called them to discuss it.
A. I don't thank so. I didn't know --
Q. Were you surprised to hear that Ruby shot him?
A. I guess I was.
Q. You had stated that when you knew Jack in Chicago, he was fairly docile--
A. Very -- a very mild person.
Q. -- and that when you saw him in '63, you got the impression that he was a lot more --
A. Yes, he had turned a little.
Q. -- a lot rougher.
Q. Did you ever get the impression as to why it had happened or just because of the nature of the business he was in?
A. I think it was the nature of the business -- well, the way he told , me, he says, "Well" he says, "I am not a Texan," and the fact that he was a Jew and he got into a business, I guess, that wasn't liked by everybody. I don't think it is here either. And the people came in and tried to take advantage of him and he says, "I had to show them that I wasn't, you know, scared of them, prove the point that I was a man."
Q. Was he defensive about being Jewish, feeling he had to prove something?
A. I don't know, really. I don't really know. But you get in other cities in other towns, you know, where there is not a big Jewish population -- a Jew is a big hook-nosed guy with a long beard and robs your money and --
Q. When he called you after the assassination, did Ruby mention the advertisement that was listed above a Jewish man's name that was critical of President Kennedy?
A. No. I seen the picture and I saw that, but he never, no. NO, I never heard nothing like that. The only thing he beefed about was these two guys. That's all the beef that he had about anything.
Q. Did he mention that they were Jewish also?
A. No. I didn't know they were Jewish. You just mentioned it. I didn't know they were Jewish.
Q. Did he mention when he called right after the assassination that he was going to close his clubs for a couple days and that he was mad because his Jewish competitors weren't going to close theirs?
A. Well, I don't know about that. No, he didn't mention it.
Q. Did he mention at all that he was going to close his club?
A. No, not that I can remember.
Q. Did he mention that he had gone to Parkland Hospital that day, after the assassination, or that, he was going to go?
A. He mentioned it to me.
Q. Did he?
A. On the phone?
A. I can't remember. I don't think so. I never heard of Parkland Hospital.
Q. Did Ruby call you again that week-end, the week-end of the assassination? The assassination was on a Friday, the 22nd. Did he call you on a Saturday or Sunday?
A. I think he only called me once that I can remember.
Q. To the best of your knowledge, is that the last time that he ever called you on the phone?
A. That is right.
Q. Did you ever call him on the phone after the call after the assassination?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You don't think you-called him on the assassination week-end, then?
A. I don't think so. I think he called me to tell me about it and that was it.
Q. Do you remember anything that you did on the morning of Sunday, November 24th, 1963, prior to the time that you found out that Ruby shot Oswald?
A. What I did? I guess I did the normal things that I do every day. I don't know.
Q. Ruby shot Oswald in the morning, which would have placed it -- I think it was like 11:14 Dallas time, which would have been about 9:15 this time, Pacific time.
A. Yes. Well, I was home in bed.
Q. Were you still in bed at the time that you found out that Ruby shot Oswald or had you been up?
A. Oh, you are talking about when Ruby shot Oswald.
Q. Ruby shot Oswald. Do you know what time you got up that day?
A. I was in the house. I know that. I might have been up, but I was in the house.
Q. Do you know if you had gone out that day?
A. I had been sick for quite a while back. I had had heart attacks. I don't go out too much.
Q. Did you go out that morning before you found out that Ruby shot Oswald?
A. No, I hadn't left the house, no.
Q. Of the numbers --
A. Was that on a Sunday?
A. Well, my wife was home at that time. We were all home then because it was Sunday.
Q. You hadn't gone out to eat breakfast or go to church or anything?
A. No, we eat at home. No.
Q. You mentioned a number of people from Chicago had known Ruby that were living in this area. Do you know off any that ran any restaurants or food establishments out here that had known Ruby?
Q. Or any kind of food establishment.
A. I imagine Max Gold. He has been dead for years.
Q. Is his last name Gold?
A. Yes, Max Gold. He has been dead for years.
Q. Do you know if any of them ever ran a hamburger stand?
A. A hamburger stand -- I know a guy's daughter that ran hamburger stand.
Q. What is her name?
A. Uta something. I don't know what her last name is because she is married to, you know, somebody with a-- she had it on Melrose.
Q. What was her father's name?
A. Willy Rosen.
Q. Willy Rosen, R-o-s-e-n?
Q. Do you know where the hamburger stand was?
A. On Melrose.
Q. On Melrose. Is he still alive?
A. Is what?
Q. Is Rosen still alive?
A. Yes, he is still alive.
Q. Had he ever lived in Dallas or just in Chicago?
A. No.-- in Chicago. I don't know if was ever in Dallas
Q. Did you ever hear a report that the Los Angeles Police Department found out from someone who ran a hamburger stand that you had told him that there had been a phone call from you to Ruby on that Sunday morning?
A. That I told this fellow that owned a hamburger stand? I am trying to think of who I know that owns a hamburger stand. I can't think of anybody.
Q. Is there anyone else named Grubber that you know in Los Angeles that they could have mistaken for you?
A. Just my brothers.
Q. What are their names?
A. Art. Well, they are not all here now. Ed, Art.
Q. They both live in Los Angeles?
A. Well, one lives in Lodi.
Q. But you don't think you told --
A. I can't think of anybody I know that owns a hamburger stand, now that you mention it.
Q. Did you tell anyone that Sunday morning or sometime after the assassination of the President that you thought that Oswald would be shot?
A. I didn't even know who Oswald was.
Q. Well, after November 22nd, after he was arrested.
A. Oh, you mean after he was arrested.
Q. After he was arrested.
A. That I said that what?
Q. Did you tell anyone that you thought Oswald would be shot?
A. I don't know if I did or not.
Q. Do you think it is likely that you did?
A. I don't think so. I might have said he was going to get hung. I don't know why he would get shot. You have got me curious now-- a guy with a hamburger stand.
Q. Did Ruby mention to you when he called you on the night of the assassination that he thought Oswald should be dead or should get the death penalty or anything like that?
A. The night of the assassination -- well, he didn't call me at night. He called me right after it happened. They didn't even know about Oswald.
Q. Did he tell you that whoever had shot the President should be put to death?
A. I don't think he discussed that with me that I can remember. It would be a natural thing to say, anyway. I would say it.
Q. Well, apparently the Los Angeles Police Department was that a hamburger stand proprietor said that you told him that Ruby had told you that he was going to shoot Oswald. Is that true?
A. I don't even know nobody that owns a hamburger-- no, that ain't true, no, no.
Q. So you didn't tell anyone that Ruby told you that he was going to shoot Oswald?
A. Absolutely not. How would I know that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?
Q. Well, the only possible way would be if he told you after the President was shot or sometime after that would be the only way you could know, unless you could read his mind.
A. Never told me nothing like that.
Q. How would you characterize your relationship with Jack Ruby up until the time he shot Oswald?
A. Just a mild acquaintance; that's all.
Q. So you wouldn't say that you and he were really good friends?
A. No. I didn't have that much to do with him. I stop and visit people all over. No President gets killed, that's all.
Q. Did you consider that Ruby was interested in politics? Did you ever discuss politics with him?
Q. Did you have any idea --
A. That is what kind of confuses me. I never heard of him in politics.
Q. Did he ever mention President Kennedy to you?
Q. Have you ever used an alias?
A. Just my middle name, yes.
Q. What is that?
Q. Phillips. You used the name Alexander Phillips?
Q. How long ago was that?
A. Oh, when I was a kid.
Q. Back in Chicago?
Q. You never used it after that?
Q. You never used another alias?
A. (Witness shakes head)
Q. Do you know anyone connected with the Teamsters Union?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You never had any business dealings with them?
A. I don't think so. Some guy from the union got me out here during the war, got me a job as a crane operator.
Q. Who was that?
A. I think his name was -- if I tell you, you will laugh. Beercase.
Q. That is his last name?
Q. Do you remember his first name?
A. No, I don' t.
Q. But he was connected with the Teamsters Union?
A. I don't know if that is the Teamsters. I was a crane operator. I don't know if that's -- I don't remember now.
Q. Was it a dock union? Was it crane operating on the docks?
A. In the shipyards.
Q. The shipyards?
A. Yes, building boats.
A. That is the only union guy I ever met, I mean personally.
Q. Did you ever know Carlos Marcello?
Q. No indirect communication with him?
A. I don't even know who he is.
Q. You said that to the best of your knowledge, you didn't know any of Jack Ruby's friends in Dallas. Is that right?
A. I didn't know any of them.
Q. You had mentioned Joe Johnson.
A. Just the black man that worked in --
Q. He was one. You might be thinking of Andrew Armstrong. He was a black man who helped run the club. Joe Johnson was more of an entertainer. And you also --
A. No, this guy wasn't an entertainer.
Q. Okay. Andrew Armstrong sent you the dog.
A. That is the guy. That is the guy. I didn't know him. I met him twice in there, the day I was there. You know, the Los Angeles Police never talked to me. You say that they told me this -- that I talked to a guy--
Q. No. They were told by the proprietor of a hamburger stand that you had told that person about what Jack Ruby allegedy told you.
A. Well, do you know the guy from the hamburger stand?
A. Well, you can find him out. Bring him to me. Let him tell me that he told me that.
Q. Well, what he said was that a man named Gruber.
A. Well, it wasn't me.
Q. That is why I asked you if there was some other Gruber.
A. It wasn't me. It wasn't me.
Q. Do you know of any other Gruber besides your brothers?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did your brothers know Ruby?
A. I don't know, no.
Q. You don't think so?
A. No. I am pretty sure they didn't know him.
Q. Other than the times we have talked about, did you have any other letters or phone calls or other communications between yourself and Jack Ruby?
A. When he was in the hospital, I sent him flowers and I got a reply. I don't know who -- I think his sister wrote it.
Q. Was that when he was dying?
Q. In 1966?
A. I don't know what year it was, but that is when he was sick in the hospital. He was supposed to be dying had cancer.
Q. How long before he died did you find out he had cancer?
A. I couldn't have been very long. I read it in the paper. That is the way I found out.
Q. At the end of each deposition, we give the witness an opportunity to say whatever he or she would like to clarify or maybe it didn't come out right or you want to add something, and at this time I am going to give you the opportunity to add anything or correct anything you would like to.
A. Well, the only thing I could correct now is the way you talk -- you are trying to implicate me. That is what it sounds like. I don't know nothing about this.
Q. Well, I don't mean to imply that.
A. That somebody said I said it. Why if somebody said it, bring the guy here. That is the simplest thing in the world. And we will straighten it out.
Q. But you say the Police Department never asked you about that?
A. I never seen the police.
Q. That is curious.
A. Why would I see police?
Q. No, I am saying if they got that allegation, you would think they would come and ask you.
A. Yes, but they never did and I can't figure out who had a hamburger stand that I know.
MR. PURDY: As I said before, we will send you a copy of the deposition and you can make whatever corrections you like for it. I appreciate your time and the Committee appreciates you taking the time to come in and talking with us. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add?
THE WITNESS: I just want to add they ought to forget it all.
MR. PURDY: That concludes the deposition.
(Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m., the interview in the above- entitled matter was adjourned.)