JFK Exhibit F-440A

CORNWELL - Would you like to state your name?
TIRADO - Silvia Tirado Bazan.
CORNWELL - And where's your present home address? TIRADO - Avenida Universidad 1900 Edificio 12 Departmento 402 Colonia Numero De Terrenos
CORNWELL - For the record, my name is Gary Cornwell, and with me here is Ed Lopez, Harold Leap and Dan Hardway. We represent the House Select Committee on assassinations of the Congress of the United States. Also with us here today representing the Mexican Goverment is Honorio Escondon, Dr. Alfonso Orozco Contreras. Today is June 6, 1978 and the time is approximately 5:45 in the afternoon. Would you tell us what your date and place of birth is?
TIRADO - 22nd of November, 1937.
CORNWELL - You speak English so if you like my questions translated we'll be happy to, and likewise, if you'd like to answer in English that would be fine, or if you'd rather answer in Spanish, we'll translate it.
TIRADO - I try to speak in English.
CORNWELL - All right. If you have any question about the what I phrase something or you don't understand it, simply ask and Mr. Lopez will translate it for you. Your name in 1963 was what?
TIRADO - Silvia Tirado de Duran.
CORNWELL - And your husband at that time was who?
TIRADO - Horacio Duran.
CORNWELL - Are you presently employed?
CORNWELL - Where's that?
TIRADO - Social Security.
CORNWELL - Prior to that, what jobs did you hold?
TIRADO - A long while, Social Security. I used to write.
CORNWELL - And any other jobs? Have you held any other jobs?
CORNWELL - At one time you worked for the Cuban Consulate.
CORNWELL - Is that the only other job you ever held?
CORNWELL - Well, let's say back since about 1960, could you tell us what the history of your employment is? Have you had many jobs?
TIRADO - I don't remember exactly, but uh, I used to work for the Olympic Games. I was a translator for two months. And uh, another three months I used to work for the, I don't know, it was an Exhibit of Hispanic Art that was, I don't know he went all over the world and I helped him to choose the pieces and as translator. I was married in 1960. I separate in '68, July '68 and I start working.
CORNWELL - During 1963, did you hold any jobs during that year other than your employment at the Cuban Consulate?
CORNWELL - When did you first obtain the job at the Consulate and how did you obtain it.
TIRADO - Well, because I was uh, coordinating the Cuban, the Mexican-Cuban institute, the cultural Institute in '62, I think, and that's where I met some people. Yes.
CORNWELL - That was a private organization, is that correct?
TIRADO - It's not exactly private I don't know because all the countries have--there is the American Institute, there is the Russian Institute, there is the French Institute. It's cultural relations between the countries.
CORNWELL - Was that associated with the Mexican government?
TIRADO - I don't know exactly, but I think--you know that. (Asks Orozco)(Translation) The objective is to present culturally the different embassies of and consulates that are in Mexico. Orozco
CORNWELL - What was you job with that organization?
TIRADO - Coordinator.
CORNWELL - And in connection with that, did you know any of the employees at the Cuban Consulate?
TIRADO - Yes, at the Cultrual Attache.
CORNWELL - And what were the names of those persons?
TIRADO - Teresa Proenza and Luis Alberu.
CORNWELL - And who?
TIRADO - Luis Alberu
CORNWELL - Did you in any other way know any of t he other employees at the Consulate?
TIRADO - Yes, well I knew Azcue, Eusebio Azcue who was a consul, and uh, Maria Carman Olivari -- she's dead.
CORNWELL - She, in the summer of 1963, was a secretary. Is that correct? (If you nod you head, the recorder will not make any record of what your answer is.)
TIRADO - Yes.CORNWELL - Would you then explain to us how it was that you obtained the job at the Consulate?
TIRADO - Because my friend Maria Carman, she was dead--she had an accident, and during the funeral I told Azcue that if he wants me to help him, for some people come from Cuba, just to help him. And of course he says yes. They need some people they can trust, and I'd been working in the Institute. So...
CORNWELL - How was it that you knew Eusebio Azcue by this time?
TIRADO - I don't remember, because he was uh, he was an Architect and he knew a lot of people, friends of ours, I mean my husband and I.
CORNWELL - Had he lived in Mexico for a long period of time?
TIRADO - Yes, yes.
CORNWELL - And, because of his occupation, he would have known your husband. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Yeah, more or less.
CORNWELL - Your husband Horatio was also an architect at that time.
TIRADO - Industrial designer. Yes, sir.
CORNWELL - Approximately when was it that you first obtained the job?
TIRADO - the end of July or August, early August. I don't remember exactly.
CORNWELL - And for how long did you continue to work there?
TIRADO - Three or four months.
CORNWELL - How long after the assassination of President Kennedy did you work there?
TIRADO - Only two days.
CORNWELL - During that period of time what were the hours of operation of the consulate?
TIRADO - It was about 9:30 or 10:00 to 2:00 and in the afternoon about 5:00 to 8:00 or something. If we have a lot of work, we stayed longer.
CORNWELL - The hours were 10:00 to 2:00 and then 5:00 to 8:00. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Yes, that's true.
CORNWELL - Was the Consulate open for visitors during both of those sets of hours?
TIRADO - No, it was just in the morning.
CORNWELL - Would you mind sketching for us what the physical layout of the Consulate looked like at that time? (pause) You have drawn a rectangular shape. What formed the outside of it? Was it a solid wall around the outside? Was the outside of the premises a wall?
CORNWELL - All right. And we'll just mark it the way you drew it. In the lower left-hand corner, there is a small box you drew. What is that?
TIRADO - The consular.
CORNWELL - That's the consulate's office?
CORNWELL - All right. We'll just put a one in that box, so we'll know that's the consulate's office. Then, the door was... where, on the corner?..you remember the name of the streets, still today?
TIRADO - This is Tacubayo. this is Francisco Marquez. You want me to write it down?
CORNWELL - If you remember, yes.
TIRADO - Here were the houses.
CORNWELL - All right. You've labeled three sides of the building with street names and on the fourth side which on the top of the drawing, you said they are houses. Correct?
CORNWELL - What is in the long triangular shape on the drawing above the Consular office?
TIRADO - It was the commercial office.
CORNWELL - All right. We'll just put a two in there. That's..
TIRADO - And here was the cultural office.
CORNWELL - And behind that, we'll mark it with a three, was the cultural office. In the center of the drawing is what?
TIRADO - The Embassy.
CORNWELL - All right. We'll put a four in that. That's the Embassy. And what's the small box in the lower right-hand corner?
TIRADO - I don't know how to say it in English.
CORNWELL - An entryway?
LOPEZ - Housekeeper.
CORNWELL - Oh, a housekeeper? Okay. We'll put a five in there. What is all the rest of the space inside the premises?
TIRADO - Garden, it was garden. And here was the entrance for the cars.
CORNWELL - And where you indicated there was an entrance for cars, we'll mark that seven. And all the interior space which was garden, we'll mark with an eight.
TIRADO - Down here there was a movie room.
CORNWELL - Where, behind the...?
TIRADO - Behind the cultural room?
CORNWELL - Want to draw that?
TIRADO - No, because this is the first floor.
CORNWELL - Oh, it was on the second floor.
TIRADO - Yeah. On the first floor was a projection...movies
CORNWELL - Were the space which we marked one, two, three and also four, were they all two-story?
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Okay. And above the space marked one, what was there?
TIRADO - The Consulate.
CORNWELL - So it was on two floors.
TIRADO - No, there was another floor over here but it was belongs to the commercial... Only on the first floor was the Consultae. Cornwell: I see. What would be behind the Consulate on the first floor? In this area marked two?
TIRADO - I don't remember.
CORNWELL - You don't remember. So, where we marked two, that was a second story in that area. Correct?
TIRADO - Warehouse perhaps.
CORNWELL - Just a storage area or something like that, perhaps, in the lower area marked two. In the space marked number one, which was the Consular's office, who all occupied that area?
TIRADO - Well, Consul, the Vice Consul and the secretary.
CORNWELL - Which was you.
CORNWELL - During the time that we're interested in. The Consul's name of course was Eusebio Azcue. The Vice Consul's name was what?
TIRADO - I don't remember.
CORNWELL - All right.
TIRADO - This was Consulate.
CORNWELL - All right. You have divided the area that we originally marked number one into two units. The smaller unit indicates where the Consul sat and you sat in a larger reception area in the front? All right. And then, behind the Consul's office, was there another door? You marked that with a heavier area, and that would be where he could walk out into the courtyard. Is that correct. So if you wanted to get into the Consul's office, including the reception area from the courtyard, you needed to walk through the Consul's office. Is that accurate?
CORNWELL - Now, what kind of a door was at the corner, the lower left-hand corner here, so that if one were to walk from your office to the street, what kind of door was that? Glass, wood, solid, could you see through it?
TIRADO - No, it was solid. I don't remember exactly, but perhaps I was wood. But it was solid.
CORNWELL - You don't remember being able to see out on the street?
TIRADO - No, no.
LOPEZ - You enter the Consulate right, in here?
TIRADO - Uh huh.
LOPEZ - And your office would be right around here. Right?
TIRADO - My desk was here.
CORNWELL - You have drawn a small box now inside the larger half of the area we originally marked area number one, that's where our desk was?
LOPEZ - From where you sat to the entrance into the office where you were, where would the entrance into the office be? Not into the whole consulate, but just into your office?
TIRADO - It was open.Lopez. Okay, it was open.
TIRADO - You would enter here. Here was the stairs for the second floor, No?--and here I think there were chairs, or something like that. For the people who were waiting. And the desk was here.
LOPEZ - Okay. Where would the entrance to your office be?
TIRADO - Here, or here.
LOPEZ - Just to your office, not to the Consul's office. It would be at the same entrance?
LOPEZ - And from where you sat, you couldn't see outside at all?
LOPEZ - You couldn't see any area in the yard? There was no glass.
TIRADO - No. I can remember glass, a window, yeah. I can remember windows here, and perhaps here, but I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Okay. There may have been windows for you to see out in the street?
TIRADO - Yeah, but I couldn't see outside because perhaps they were very high.
CORNWELL - While Mr. Lopez was asking you questions, he drew a diagonal line across your office space. Does that represent anything? That line should not have been drawn, is that correct?
TIRADO - yeah. (Laughs.)
CORNWELL - Now, did you know a Teresa Proenza? Was she employed at the Consulate or the Embassy.
TIRADO - The Embassy. She was the Cultural Attache.
CORNWELL - She would have worked in the area marked number four? Is that correct?
TIRADO - Well, yes. But this was, this construction was uh, afterwards. This was the Embassy and the Consulate and building was under construction, constructed. A building.
CORNWELL - Constructed?
TIRADO - Later. It was the old building.
CORNWELL - Did she work there during the same period of time you did?
CORNWELL - At the period where did she work? What area?
TIRADO - Here.
CORNWELL - That's the area we marked number three on the diagram. Did you know a Louisa Calderon?
TIRADO - Louisa? Yes, she was in the commercial...
CORNWELL - And where would that be on the diagram? In the area we marked number two?
TIRADO - I think her office was exactly above mine. She was a secretary. And I think it was above.
CORNWELL - Either above the area we marked one, or the area marked two, but on the second level.
CORNWELL - Do you know the names of any other employees who worked there at the time?
TIRADO - No, I don't remember.Cornwell. The man named Mirabal, he was to replace Eusebio Azcue, is that correct?
TIRADO - Yes. Page 14.
CORNWELL - And do you recall aproximately when he arrived in Mexico city and began to learn the job so he could take it over from Eusebio Azcue?
TIRADO - I didn't understand, what did you say please?
CORNWELL - Do you remember approximately when he arrived? And began to learn the work from Azcue.
TIRADO - No, some weeks earlier, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Would it be accurate to state that your best memory as you told us when we spoke to you informally before we turned the tape recorders on, that he was already there when you met the man you later identified as Oswald?
TIRADO - But he wasn't there when I started working at the Embassy, at the Consulate.
CORNWELL - Okay. So he much have arrived in late summer or perhaps September, or something like that.
CORNWELL - Now, were there telephones in the office?
TIRADO - Here.
CORNWELL - You had one at your desk?
TIRADO - This is the desk and here was a little table. I think it was the telephone. Here was the safe box. And here was the Archivo.
LOPEZ - Archives.
CORNWELL - So you've drawn two smaller boxes next to your desk. One of them was like a filing cabinet, or for storage of records?
TIRADO - Yes. This one. The Files.
CORNWELL - And the other one was a table.
TIRADO - No, here was the safe box.
CORNWELL - Oh, a safe. I see, a safe. And there was a phone at the desk?
CORNWELL - And did Azcue also have a telephone?
TIRADO - Yes, it was the same but with an extension.
CORNWELL - Extension.
TIRADO - Here was the door.
CORNWELL - All right. 1963, where were you living? Did you have more than one residence?
TIRADO - Yes. Constituyentes 143.
CORNWELL - And during what part of 1963 was that?
TIRADO - When I moved there? Before i started working, at the embassy. But just a few weeks...
CORNWELL - So sometime in the summer of 1963. Did you have a telephone at your home?
TIRADO - Not at the moment that Oswald came. Because we had just moved. I think we moved in July because we were separated in July, also, July '68 and it is when the contract finished. So perhaps...
CORNWELL - I see. Your rent contract ran out in July of '68?
CORNWELL - About the same time that you and Horatio were divorced?
CORNWELL - Did you, you say that because of your move, it took some time to get a telephone in your home?
CORNWELL - And do you remember approximately when it was that you finally got that in?
TIRADO - At the assassination we had, a, let me see, we didn't have telephone--days later.
CORNWELL - It was sometime after the assassination that you first got a telephone in this residence.
CORNWELL - And do you by any chance recall the telephone number at the Consulate?
TIRADO - Oh, so many times I write it down. Perhaps it was 11-28-45, perhaps? Page 17.
CORNWELL - Could it have been 11-28-47?
TIRADO - Perhaps.
CORNWELL - When were you first advised that we wanted to speak to you?
TIRADO - Last week.
CORNWELL - And since that time, of course, last Wednesday, I believe it was, we spoke to you informatlly, and told you basically what we were interested in. And learned most of what you could remember about the events we were interested in. Correct?
CORNWELL - Apart from that, have you had any other oportunities to read anything, or speak to anyone, in order to refresh your memory about the events?
TIRADO - Yes. In October of '76 some journalist from the Washington Post came to interview me.
CORNWELL - We are familiar with the story that appeared in the Washington Post at approximately that time. Apart from that have you for instance read the Warren Commission Report?
CORNWELL - When did you last have an occasion to read that?
TIRADO - Oh, when Horacio told me you were coming, I was writing, and I try to remember exactly and I'm starting saying that again, the nightmare came, and so on and so on, and I wanted to check the dates.
CORNWELL - So, last week sometime, you had a chance to read it over again?
TIRADO - No, not everything just the one little thing.
CORNWELL - Just the part that dealt with Mexico city and your testimony and that sort of thing. Correct?
CORNWELL - Let me ask you, when you read that, was there any part of it that seemed to you to be inaccurate?
TIRADO - Inaccurate?
CORNWELL - Not correct.
TIRADO - Not correct? Yes, but with the warren Commission, I get angry when I start reading it because they make some afirmacionnes (ph).
LOPEZ - Allegations or conclusions.
TIRADO - Yes. I don't like it. So I tried to erase it.
CORNWELL - Okay. What specifically about the report was it that makes you angry?
TIRADO - That I was a--let me see how to say it--, I don't remember exactly, but uh, I did more to Oswald when he was here than was my job, that it was extra.
CORNWELL - You mean part of the report that suggests that you went beyond your duties at that Consulate, that you exceeded your authority, and you thought that you did not do so. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Correct.
CORNWELL - Is there anything else about the Warren Commission Report's resume of the facts that you felt was inaccurate, that made you mad?
TIRADO - I cannot answer that because I only read at that time two pages. I didn't read the whole thing.
CORNWELL - Okay. In addition to looking at that in order to refresh you memory, have you had a chance to speak to any one else?
TIRADO - No, it was just for checking my writing.
CORNWELL - What writing was that?
TIRADO - Well, I was trying to remember everything that happened in the interrogatory. It was not hard, I mean, what I felt, but uh, what the police had done to me, so it was my but I'm writing, I'm writing an autobiographia how do you say that, and this is a chapter.
TIRADO - (Laughs.)
CORNWELL - Directing your attention than to approximately late September of 1963, as we learned from you the other day, a man came to the Consulate, a man who you later associated with pictures in the newspaper and a name in the newspaper of the alleged assassin of the President. Is that correct?
CORNWELL - Do you remember how many times he came to the Consulate?
TIRADO - Three times.
CORNWELL - Do you remember the date or dates upon which those three visits occurred?
TIRADO - No, I saw the application. You showed me the other day, and in the Warren Commission was September 27, but I didn't remember, of course, until I read it.
CORNWELL - All right. Do you have a recollection whether it was all on one day or on separate days.
TIRADO - The same day.
CORNWELL - On the very first visit, would you describe to us what the man said and did, and what you said in response?
TIRADO - Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak english and I say yes, and then he start asking me about requirements to go to Cuba, to get a visa to go to cuba, and I explain it.
CORNWELL - What did you explain?
TIRADO - Well, that he needed to, he said that a transit visa so that he needs a visa to the country that he was going, from, if it was a Socialist country, the visa was given, as soon as he gets the other visa, and uh...
CORNWELL - When he first asked about the requirements for a visa, did he tell you that his objective was to go to cuba or to another country?
TIRADO - To the Soviet Union.
CORNWELL - Did you ever suggest to him that there was any alternative means to acquire a visa other than the in-transit visa requirement which you just described?
TIRADO - I don't remember, I mean I hardly remember. But what used to say is if you want to go to Cuba, you need or you have to have friends in Cuba, so they may, what do you say, take responsibility, if you get the visa. That was one way, no? And the other way was in-transit.
CORNWELL - Okay. If I understand then, you don't have a distinct recollection about exactly what you said to Oswald, but you asumed it was what you said to everyone who came in, which was that you explained both processes, that they either must have friends in Cuba or the in-transit visa could be granted if they got a visa from another country.
TIRADO - No, if only they asked me. Because they usually go there and say, "I want to go to Cuba." But if they say I'm just in transit, then I explain 27
CORNWELL - Okay, then. Let me see if I can rephrase it and get what's in your mind as best we can. Is it your best recollection that you did explain both alternatives to Oswald?
TIRADO - I don't remember exactly, because I think he immediately says that he wants to go to Russia, and he was in transit to go to Cuba. I think he immediately says so.
CORNWELL - Okay. So then your best recollection that you may have only explained the in-transit visa process. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Yes.Cornell: But, I gather from the way you have answered the question, there is still the possibility that you also discussed with him going to cuba if he had friends, but you're not sure about that second one. Is that accurate?
CORNWELL - Now, after this first basic explanation, what if anything did he say or do?
TIRADO - Well, I don't remember exactly. He show all the paper that he had, when he gave me the application when he came back,...
CORNWELL - Okay. Wait a minute. Just the first visit. Is there anything else about the first visit? Or, did he leave at that time and if he left, why did he leave?
TIRADO - To have photographs of himself.
CORNWELL - Okay. So your memory is that on the first occasion you also explained to him that he needed photographs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain them.
TIRADO - Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution, and when he showed me all the scrap paper that he has.
CORNWELL - All right. You don't remember if that was on the first or the second occasion. Correct?
TIRADO - Yeah, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did return?
CORNWELL - Did he return with the photographs?
TIRADO - With four photographs.
CORNWELL - Four of them.
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Were they all the same? To the best of your memory, was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day in the photographs?
CORNWELL - So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to your that he just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made?
TIRADO - Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him where he could take the photographs.
CORNWELL - You told him some locations in town where ge could go? Were there some right in the neighborhood of the Consulate there?
TIRADO - That I don't remember.
CORNWELL - All right. But at any rate you knew of some place at the time, mentioned one or two places to him?
CORNWELL - Correct?... Did you look at the photos when he brought them back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who was standing in front of you?
CORNWELL - And what did you do at that time?
TIRADO - I filled out application.
CORNWELL - You personally typed it, and did you type it in duplicate or triplicate or just one copy?
TIRADO - Duplicate.
CORNWELL - And was the second copy a carbon?
TIRADO - Carbon?
CORNWELL - Did you have it twice or did you type one and make two copies?
TIRADO - Only one.
CORNWELL - And made two?
CORNWELL - And what did you do with the photographs?
TIRADO - Stapled them.
CORNWELL - Stapled them?
CORNWELL - On top of the application.
CORNWELL - The application has a place on it for a date, is that correct?
CORNWELL - Did you type in the date that was in fact that day?
CORNWELL - Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment. Is there any chance that he was at the Consulate on more than one day?
TIRADO - No. I read yesterday, an article in the Reader's digest, and they say he was at the Consulate on three occasions. He was in Friday, Saturday, and Monday...That's not true, that's false. CORNWELL - All right. Let's try a different hypothetical. If the one in the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back on a Friday?
TIRADO - No, because I am positively sure about it. That he came in the same day.
CORNWELL - Let me ask you then something about just the procedures or the Consulate at the time. Would it have been consistent with your normal procedures for you to have typed the application on his first visit, even though he didn't have a photograph to put on it?
CORNWELL - In other words, before you started the process of typing it, you were sure you had everything you needed to make it complete.
CORNWELL - Did he tel you where he was staying at the time?
CORNWELL - Did you recall any problem with him not knowing any address, where he was staying in Mexico City?
TIRADO - No, because he say that he has no time to wait, he was in a hotel and uh, I didn't ask the address, in Mexico City because I mean didn't care.
CORNWELL - You didn't have a need to know that?
CORNWELL - Do you recall any problem coming up where he needed to know it? For any other reason?
TIRADO - Me to know his address?
CORNWELL - No, for him to know. Did he have any problem, did he have any need to know it himself? Do you remember anything along those lines?
CORNWELL - Going back to the second visit, is it your memory that you typed the application in duplicate, you stapled the pictures at the top of each copy, if that correct?
CORNWELL - Then what did you do with the application?
TIRADO - Well, I used to put it in a file, and uh, I used to keep one copy, another to send, the original, we used to send to Cuba. And I think I have another file.
CORNWELL - Was he required to sign the application?
TIRADO - He sighned it, yes.
CORNWELL - Did he sign one or both of them?
TIRADO - I think both, it has to be.
CORNWELL - Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he do it in any particular person's presence? Anyone have to watch him while he signed it?
TIRADO - I don't know, I mean I just don't remember.
CORNWELL - As a hypothetical, did Azcue have to watch people sign the applications?
TIRADO - No. He was in his office.
CORNWELL - So you could handle that all by yourself.
TIRADO - yes.
CORNWELL - Did he sign it in your presence?
CORNWELL - Did anything else occur on the second visit, any other conversation, or any other event?
TIRADO - No, but I told you, it's uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution. He show me letters to the Communist Party, the American Communist Party, his labor card, and uh, he's working in Russia, I don't remember exactly, but he said on his application, his licence number...
CORNWELL - Marriage license?
TIRADO - (Spoke in spanish.) Se dice serup los recortes del
CORNWELL - Okay, we had to pause for a second to turn the periodico tapes over. As I recall, you were explaining the kinds of things he brought with him.
TIRADO - Yes, it was his labor card, form Russia, his us, marriage pact, yes, that he was married with a Russian, and uh, a clipping that he was with two policemen taking him by his arms, that he was in a meeting to support Cuba. And a card saying that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba in New Orleans. And
CORNWELL - Do you recall what was said or what occurred that caused him to produce all of these documents about his having a Russian wife and his Fair Play For Cuba activity?
TIRADO - Just a minute. (Spanish--what means recall?)
LOPEZ - Recordar. He showed me all of these papers to demonstrate that he was a friend of the revolution.
CORNWELL - But did you say anything to him or did anyone else say anything to him that made him feel he needed to produce this kind of documentation.
TIRADO - No, I don't think so. What I said is that when he said he was a member of the Party, of the Communist Party, the American, I said why don't they arrange, the Party, your Party with the Cuban Party, and he said that he didn't have time to do it.
CORNWELL - Did you ask him why hw didn't just have the Communist Party arrange his trip to Cuba?
CORNWELL - the Cuban Communist Party? He just said he didn't have time?
TIRADO - Yes. Because there was a manner to do it. I mean, we get, for instance, the visa directly from Cuba and saying give the visa to this people that's coming and somebody say oh, yes, you have you visa here.
CORNWELL - Do you recall anything else happening on the second occasion? Or have you related all that's in your mind on that?
TIRADO - No. It was strange. I mean because I you are a Communist and you're coming from a country where the Communist Party is not very well seen, and in Mexico City that the Communist Party was not legal at that moment -- crossing the border with all of his paper, it was not logical. I mean if you're really communist, you go with anything, I mean just nothing, just your passport, that's all. And that was something that I didn't like it but...
CORNWELL - So, you were a little suspicious of the amount of documentation he brought?
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Did you say anything to him about that?
TIRADO - Perhaps I told him, what are you doing with all of this? And he said to prove I'm a friend of yours.
CORNWELL - Did you discuss your suspicions with anyone else?
TIRADO - With the consul.
CORNWELL - With Azcue?
CORNWELL - Do you remember when that discussion occurred?
TIRADO - It was afterwards.
CORNWELL - Was that after his second visit as you recall?
TIRADO - It was during his third visit.
CORNWELL - During his third visit. All right. Let's back up again for just a moment. what time of day as best as you recall did he come to the Consulate the first time?
TIRADO - Perhaps it was eleven o'clock or something like that, ten thirty.
CORNWELL - And the second time?
TIRADO - About twelve, or eleven, no, about one o'clock.
CORNWELL - Okay. The first one was roughly late morning, and the second one was early afternoon.
TIRADO - yes.
CORNWELL - And then, when did he leave the second time?
TIRADO - To get his Russian visa.
CORNWELL - Would it have been the standard procedure in the Cuban Consulate, to take the application, have him sign it, and have it ready to go in the file if the request was in-transit, for an in-transit visa, even though he did not have the visa from the third country. Or from another country?
TIRADO - Uh, huh.
CORNWELL - All right.
TIRADO - Yes, I did send it to Cuba.
CORNWELL - All right. Okay. So, then you sent him in effect, to the Russian Embassy. And it was at that point after he left that you spoke to...
CORNWELL - No, you didn't speak to the Consulate at all yet.
CORNWELL - Had there been any problem at all yet?
CORNWELL - So far, it's like any normal visa appplication.
CORNWELL - Would it have been consistent with the procedures in the consulate or you to have allowed him to take one or both of the applications typed up outside the Consulate?
TIRADO - I don't remember very well if uh, there were only two copies. I mean, one original and one copy, but uh, it could have happened, but I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Okay. To the best of your memory then, the person who made the application was not permitted to have a copy.
TIRADO - I don't know. I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Okay. You're not sure. But your tentative memory is that would not have occurred.
CORNWELL - Is that correct?
CORNWELL - Would you have ever allowed a person to take all of the applications outside and attach the photos or sign them themselves?
TIRADO - Yes, because you may come, ask for the application and you may keep it.
CORNWELL - You, on occasion, would allow someone just to have a blank copy. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Yes. But he was different because he did not speak in Spanish so I have to fill it.
CORNWELL - I see. If he would have spoken Spanish or professed to having someone with him who did speak Spanish, you might have allowed him to take the applications and fill them out.
TIRADO - Perhaps.
CORNWELL - At least on other occasions you have done that, with other people.
TIRADO - That's something that I really don't remember.
CORNWELL - There at least, there was no requirement that you type it there in the office, as long as it got filled out.
TIRADO - I think I have to type it. I have to type it because I have to make some observations, always.
CORNWELL - Down at the botton?
TIRADO - Yes. And I think that if you fill it in handwriting, I have to type it, for, to send it to Cuba.
CORNWELL - So, at most, you would allow someone to fill it out and bring it in so you could type it?
CORNWELL - If that procedure was employed, allowing someone else ot fill it out, would you still be required to check the photograph to be sure it was accurate?
CORNWELL - Would you still require the person to sign it in your presence?
CORNWELL - Just so we can keep out documents straight, let's just mark now on the back a photograph and we'll ask you some questions about it. We'll mark it as Exhibit Number 2. This is a photograph of what would appear to be a visa application. Does it appear to be basically the type of visa application that we have been speaking about?
TIRADO - Yes. The numbers, I think they're mine.
CORNWELL - The numbers in the upper right-hand corner which are hand-written?
TIRADO - I think so.
CORNWELL - Those appear to you to be in your handwriting.
TIRADO - Yeah, because when I file I write in the number, the following number?
CORNWELL - Okay. And on the very bottom of the application, where it says "para uso de la mision" that means it's filled in by someone associated with the Cuban Government. Is that correct. Or the Consulate?
CORNWELL - Who, according to the usual procedure, filled out that portion.
CORNWELL - The other day when we talked to you informally, you read through the words in that section. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Yes. I remember.
CORNWELL - And your memory is that you in fact typed that section on this application.
TIRADO - Yes. I used to do this with all the applications.
CORNWELL - And under that, there is a signature.
CORNWELL - Are you able to tell whose signature that is?
TIRADO - No, I was thinking it was Mirabal, but no--I couldn't sign any papers.
CORNWELL - Okay. So it was definitely not your signature?
CORNWELL - Do you know whether, according to normal procedure, any particular person routinely placed his name at that location?
TIRADO - No, only the Consulate. People in the Consulate.
CORNWELL - What would be the purpose of a signature in the lower right-hand corner?
TIRADO - I don't know, perhaps to check that it was right as it was written.
CORNWELL - Did you ever see the Consulate or any other employee routinely sign the applications at the location?
TIRADO - I don't remember, but what I used to do was put the originals in one packet and that was with a letter to the Minister, de Relaciones exterister (spanish). How do you say that? (Lopez - Minister of Foreign Relations), and I used to give to the Consul so he sign the papers and send it to Cuba.
CORNWELL - Okay. One copy stayed in the Consulate and one was mailed to Cuba, to the Minister of Foreign Relations.
CORNWELL - Is it possible then that the signature in the lower right-hand corner is someone in Cuba?
TIRADO - Perhaps that one that get it.
CORNWELL - That receives it in cuba. All right, the stamp, which appears slightly over the name, the handwritten name, Lee H. Oswald, when did that get laced on the application if you know?
TIRADO - Perhaps in the moment that he sign?
CORNWELL - Was that part of the normal procedure? Did you have a stamp as you recall to do that?
CORNWELL - And was that a means of authenticating the signature, that you would stamp on top of it like that?
TIRADO - I think so. Because let me see. This was signed by Cuba, I think because this was October 10. This was the answer, perhaps.
CORNWELL - So there's a date you just pointed to, around the middle of the application reading 10-Oct. 1963 and you are assuming, I take it, that that was the date placed on the document in Cuba?
TIRADO - Perhaps but I don't know. I don't know the date of when we send the application.
CORNWELL - Or it was placed on there when you mailed it?
CORNWELL - Do you know which?
TIRADO - I don't know.
CORNWELL - You don't remember which? Could it have been the date upon which the application was received in the Consulate here in mexico City?
TIRADO - In return.
CORNWELL - In return? Back from cuba? Is that what you mean?
TIRADO - Perhaps. I don't know that.
CORNWELL - Could it have been the date you received it from Oswald?
TIRADO - No, because it was the same date.
CORNWELL - Okay. The only date on here of receipt from Oswald was the one near the top, the second line, which reads: 27 Sep. 1963.
CORNWELL - So I guess the best we can do is say that you don't have a distinct recollection of how the 10th of October date would have gotten placed on here. Correct?
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - How long normally would it have taken between the receipt of an application and the date that it would have been mailed to Cuba?
TIRADO - Well, it depends on the flight. We had, I don't remember in that time, if we were three flights from Cuba to Mexico and from Mexico to Cuba and it depends on the work that we have to do, if we have a lot of work we wouldn't have sent it immediately or,--valise diplomatica, How do you say it?
CORNWELL - Diplomatic pouch.
CORNWELL - Would there have been some usual amount of time? How much could it vary?
TIRADO - The flights were Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I think. And uh, well, we send a bunch if, I think, I don't know, when what day in the week was the 27th? Perhaps if it was Wednesday, we would send next Friday, or next Monday. Or...
CORNWELL - I have another photograph of just the upper left-hand corner of the same document, which we'll mark as Exhibit 3 on the back, and ask you if, to the best of your recollection, that is a photograph of the man whom you saw on or about the 27th of September?
CORNWELL - I don't understand. A moment ago, did you say that there was a normal time of the week that mailings to Cuba occurred?
TIRADO - Would you please repeat the question?
CORNWELL - Was there a usual day, did the mailings to Cuba usually occur on one given day of the week?
TIRADO - Yes, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was on Friday, perhaps, that we make, we send applications. Yeah, it was one day to send all the applications.
CORNWELL - All right. So, if we were to tel you the 27th of (Note: Page 40 missing from L.M.P. CD ROM)
CORNWELL - What happened?
TIRADO - Somebody took them to the Consulate.
CORNWELL - Okay. you said the main gate. Was that the area that, on Exhibit one, you marked as beign the door to your office, or some other area?
TIRADO - He was closed. In the afternoon he was closed. But perhaps he came...
CORNWELL - The door on Area One was locked up. Okay?
TIRADO - Yes. And then he was open.
CORNWELL - Over near Number Seven, is that correct? Where they let the cars in?
CORNWELL - There was a door there too?
TIRADO - Yes. It was the garage and another door.
CORNWELL - And the doorman from that area brought him to your office?
CORNWELL - What occurred on that occasion?
TIRADO - What?
CORNWELL - What happened on that occasion.
TIRADO - Well, he came in and he said that he already have his Russian Visa and uh, he want to get his Cuban visa. And I said that that was not possible because he has to be first sent to Cuba and then wait for the answer, no, it was necessary that he has to have first a Socialist visa, the Russian visa. And, uh,...
CORNWELL - Did he show you his passport with a visa in it? From the Russian Embassy.
TIRADO - No, No. I don't remember exactly but what I remember is he says that he already has his Russian visa and I said I don't see it and well, I don't remember exactly what we discussed in that moment. But, he was very stubborn. So, I say, well, I'm going to call to the Russian Consul, so I called the russian Consul and I said hey, listen, here's a man that, he say that he already got his Russian visa. And he said, yes, I remember it. He came to us for visa but uh, the answer will be in three or four months, that was the usual time.
CORNWELL - So as you recall, then, the person t the Russian Embassy said in effect, no, he doesn't have it yet, he's only applied for it. Is that right?
CORNWELL - Okay. Go ahead.
TIRADO - And uh, and I told him what the Russian Consulate says and then, he was angry. He age angry. And he insisted that he was a friend of the Cuban Re- volution, that he has already been in jail for the Cuban Revolution, that uh, oh, that he wanted that visa and that he couldn't wait for so long time because uh, his Mexican visa was finished in three days. So he was insistent and uh, I didn't have time and well, I couldn't make him understand that. So, I went to the Consul's office and I explained to him, and would you please come and talk with him? Axcue came, Misrabel I think he didn't speak English, so Azcue came and told him those things, all the requirements that he needs to fly to Cuba, and he was really angry. He was red and he was almost crying and uh, he was insisting and insisting so Azcue told him to go away because if he didn't go away at that moment he was going to kick him, or something like that. So, Azcue went to the door, he opened the door and told Oswald to go away.
CORNWELL - Okay. So he went to the door which was in the area we marked 'one,' which was at the Consulate Office?
TIRADO - Yes...Remember, I was feeling pity for him because he looked desperate.
CORNWELL - He looked desperate?
CORNWELL - So, you felt kind of sorry for him?
CORNWELL - At any time during these three contacts, did he indicate to you that he could speak or understand Spanish?
CORNWELL - During this period was your normal work week, did it include Saturdays?Tirado Yes.Cornwell Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on Friday, he also came back the following day on Saturday mourning?
CORNWELL - How can you be sure of that?
TIRADO - Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy to remember, because not all the Americans that came there were married with a Russian woman, they have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to fight with those people because if you, they came for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends, no? So we were nice to them with this man we fight, I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want to have anything to do with him.
CORNWELL - Okay. I understand that but I don't understand how that really answers the question. In other words, the question is, what is it about the events that makes you sure that he did not come back on Saturday, and have another conversation with you?
TIRADO - Because I remember the fight. So if he (come) back, I would have remembered.
CORNWELL - Did Azcue work on Saturdays?
TIRADO - Yes, we used to work in the office but not for the public.
CORNWELL - Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at the corner near number seven on your diagram on Saturdays?
TIRADO - Excuse me?
CORNWELL - Was there a doorman out near the area that you marked as number seven, on the diagram?
TIRADO - Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ...
CORNWELL - Never let people in.
CORNWELL - Not even if they came up to the doorman and didn't speak Spanish? And were very insistent?
TIRADO - No, because they could answer or something. They could ask me for instance, no ? by the inter-phone.
CORNWELL - They could do that on a Friday, though.
TIRADO - But what I remember is that Oswald has my tele- phone number and my name and perhaps he show to the doorman (Spanish).
CORNWELL - When did you give him the telephone number and name?
TIRADO - In the second visit, perhaps.
TIRADO - I used to do that to all the people, so they don't have to come and to bother me. So I used to give the telephone number and my name and say "give me a call next week to see if your visa arrived."
CORNWELL - Well. Are you saying that based on your memory the guard was allowed to bring people in during the five till eight o'clock at night uh, sessions during the week but not on Saturdays?
CORNWELL - Is that correct?
CORNWELL - Do you have a distinct recollection with respect to telephone calls to the Russian Consulate, was it just one call or was it more than one call?
TIRADO - Only one.
CORNWELL - Just one. The ... I believe I asked you this, but just to be sure, although the application was typed with a carbon to make two copies with one typing, did he have to sign both independently? Or did you allow them to use a carbon to sign the paper?
TIRADO - No, no. It was the original.
CORNWELL - Two original signatures. All right.
CORNWELL - Was anything said that you recall at this time which looking back on it indicated the possibility, even on that date, Oswald had on his mind some intension of killing the President of the United States?
TIRADO - No, I don't think so.
CORNWELL - Let me read something to you, and ask you if it at all refreshes your memory or if hour have a memory of a conversation similar to this? I don't believe I read this to you before, when we talked the other day, or did I? Did I rea and excerpt from Daniel Schorr's book to you?
TIRADO - No, you told me.
CORNWELL - Okay. I'll read it to you then at this time. It's an excerpt from a book called Clearing the Air, written by Daniel Schorr, published in the United States in 1977. And page 177 reads as follows: "In and interview in July 1967 with a British journalist, Comer Clark, Castro (meaning Fidel Castro) said that Oswald had come to the Cuban Consulate twice, each time for about fifteen minutes. The first time, I was told, he wanted to work for us. He was asked to explain but he wouldn't, he wouldn't go into details. The second time he said he wanted to free Cuba from American imperialism. Then he said something like 'Someone ought to shoot that President Kennedy.' Then Oswald said, and this is exactly how is was reported to me, maybe I'll try to do it." Do you recall any conversation like that in either what was said to you by Oswald or that was said by Oswald to Azcue or anyone else that you might have overheard?
TIRADO - No, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Did any part of that conversation occur?
TIRADO - No, because I don't remember that he says he was to go to work in Cuba because he only that he wanted to go in-transit. That's what I remember.
CORNWELL - What do you think, well, first let me ask you, do you think that conversation could have occurred and you just forgot it? In other words, is that the kind of conversation which, if it occurred, you would definitely remember it?
TIRADO - Yes. Because in the fight with Azcue there was shouting and crying and things like that. I could miss something, but not, because even if would say so, I mean, I could have heard, no, I mean if you kill President you're not going to change the whole system. You see, that's why I give you answer, even Azcue. I mean that's no the, I don't think so, that he had that conversation with anyone. He was arguing. . .
CORNWELL - Do you remember any part of the conversation indicating that Oswald blaming the United States or President Kennedy for his inability to get to Cuba?
TIRADO - I don't remember but that could be possible.
CORNWELL - In other words, if he's frustrated and he comes to the Cuban Consulate, he might feel animosity or anger towards various people. He might be angry at you, or Azcue, or at the Cuban Govern- ment or at the Russian Government or perhaps the United States Government, depending on how the conversation went. What do you recall about that? Who was he angry at when told he couldn't go to Cuba
TIRADO - He was angry at us. That's why I called Azcue Because he was not a strong man but anyway, I didn't like to fight with him. He was very angry and he was blaming me and Azcue because he thought it was in our hands to give the visa immediately, and he couldn't understand that the visa has to come from Cuba.
CORNWELL - You mentioned earlier that you had discussed with Azcue on this, as I understood this, during the third visit with Oswald, the suspicion that you had about the documents. Is that accurate or did I misunderstand?
TIRADO - No, it was the third time when I told Azcue that there was a man that bother me, that when I told him about. this man, I mean because it was normal, I used to that was my job, to attend people who come in so I didn't have to bother the Consul for every man who came, because there was a lot crazy men from the United States that they wanted to go to Cuba.
CORNWELL - Okay. So, from what I understand then, when you went in to Azcue to bother him, since you normally didn't do that sort of thing, yo gave him a sort of background resume of your dealings with Oswald. Is that correct?
CORNWELL - And was it at that point that you told him of your suspicion about the documents?
TIRADO - I think so.
CORNWELL - What was his reaction? Azcue's?
TIRADO - He was worrying. When he went to my office. he was very tranquil, hw was very polite, hw was explaining things, very polite. And uh, he was starting to get angry when he saw that he was a stubborn man, that he didn't want to under- stand, and he said uh, I remember now, he said you're not a friend of the Cuban Revolution, be- cause if you are a friend, you have to understand that we have to take care, to be very careful with the people that are going to Cuba, and if you don't understand this, you are not friend of the Cuban Revolution. And he was shouting and, I don't remember how long was this conversation, but uh, they got really angry, both.
LEAP - May I call you Silvia?
LEAP - At any time during you conversation with the Consul, did you discuss the possibility that Oswald was a penetration agent? Intelligence agent for a foreign power? Did you discuss that possibility?
TIRADO - No. I don't think so because we didn't have time. Because this man was in my office and I was in Azcue's office so I couldn't leave him many times alone.
LEAP - Did you ever have conversations with Ascue out- side of Oswald's presence relative to the issue?
TIRADO - Repeat the question please.
LOPEZ - Did you ever have a conversation with Azcue when Oswald was not in the office about the possibility that he was an intelligence agent for some country?
TIRADO - No, no. I don't think so. We only thought that he was a crazy man, an adventurer, or something like that.
LEAP - Did it ever enter your mind that that he was a penetration agent?
TIRADO - Perhaps. Perhaps, because it happened, it happened sometimes that somebody came and say this is a policeman or something like that.
LEAP - That's all the questions that I have.
TIRADO - The only thing that I can say, it was that it was strange, traveling with all of his documents just to prove one thing.
LOPEZ - Do you think now, looking back on what happened then, that he may have been an intellegence agent?
TIRADO - Perhaps.
CORNWELL - Did anything else ever come to your attention? That caused that suspicion? Other than just his presentation of the documentation? Anything else ever happen?
TIRADO - With him? No, no. The only thing that was strange is that if you belong to the Communist Party, any party. Your French, but French could get Cuban visa but Mexico, for instance, if you're Mexican and you're a member of the party, of the Communist Party, you don't have to go and ask for application visa because the party writes to the Cuban Communist Party, and they arrange everything. That was the strange thing. There's no need. At first, he said that he was a Communist. That was strange. Because it would be really easy for him to get the visa through the Communist Party.
CORNWELL - At any point in the conversations that you have told us about, did Oswald say anything indicating that he really wanted to stay in Cuba?
TIRADO - No. He just wanted to go and visit and saw what was the Revolution.
CORNWELL - Okay. That's sort of what I meant. In other words, he did indicate that he didn't just want to pass through, that he wanted to spend some time there. Is that correct?
CORNWELL - What do you recall about that part of the conversations?
TIRADO - I told him that he get to Cuba, for instance, at two o'clock, and there was a plane going to Russia at five o'clock, he has to stay in the airport, in the Cuban airport. That he couldn't go out.
CORNWELL - Why didn't you tell him that?
TIRADO - Because he was saying that he wanted to go to Cuba to visit and to see what the revolution had made.
CORNWELL - Did you ever see him again, after the argument with Azcue?
CORNWELL - Did you ever talk to him again?
CORNWELL - Not in person nor by telephone.
TIRADO - No, he never call He could have called when I wasn't there, but I used to get the message, if somebody answer, I used to get a message.
CORNWELL - Did anyone else overhear any of the conversations you have described? Other than the one time in which Azcue was involved?
TIRADO - Yes. Could be that people from the Commercial Office, could be Mirabal.
CORNWELL - Was there anyone else physically persent in the Consulate's office during those conversations as you can recall?
TIRADO - I can't remember. The only thing that I remember is that it was only Mirabal.
CORNWELL - And did Mirabal come out in the reception area during the conversations as you recall?
TIRADO - No, I think he stay in his office.
CORNWELL - But he could have overheard it at the time.
TIRADO - Yes, everybody who was passing through, even in the streets, they were shouting, really?
CORNWELL - Were the windows up as I guess they might have been at that time of year?
TIRADO - (Didn't understand)
CORNWELL - The windows would have been up? The windows to the Consulate Office would have been open?
TIRADO - What? I..
CORNWELL - In other words, you're saying people on the street might have overheard it?
TIRADO - Yes, yes. If you were here and there was always a police here, they could have heard the shouting, the crying. (Lots of background, unintelligible.)

TAPE 2Name: Silvia Tirado (Duran) Date: June 5, 1978 Time: Address: Place:Interview:

CORNWELL - You told us previously when we discussed informally with you that you were sympathetic towards the Cuban Revolution during the early 1960's--
TIRADO - Yes.Cornwell Did you ever overhear any conversation either in the Consulate or among any of the people you may have associated with concerning the possibility of killing the President?
TIRADO - No, because I think the people I used to know during that time, they think like me, and I think the death of a man doesn't make anything good, I mean, you have to change the structures, I mean, it's just like a building, to? The President is like, I mean, for instance, a roof--not the top, but if you take the top, the building still stands. You have to destroy the whole building, not one man. If you kill the man, you make a hero. So, is no good.
CORNWELL - What were your own feelings towards President Kennedy?Interviewer SignatureTyped Signature Gary Cornwell Date transcribed 6-26-78 By: br Form #4A
TIRADO - Well, I like him. I mean, he was very nice, he was very intelligent. And I think of the relations with Mexico, as I remember now, they were very good in the commercial area, the cultural area. He came ot Mexico and he was very acclamation. They loved him. They liked him very much.
CORNWELL - And, what you're saying is, you're describing what you understood to be the basic reaction of the Mexican people? Is that correct?
CORNWELL - Was that feeling the same even among the part of the Mexican people who were sympathetic towards the Cuban Revolution?
TIRADO - Uh, translate, please, Ed. I want to be sure of the question.
LOPEZ - Would you repeat the question, please?
CORNWELL - Was the feeling that you just described as being that of the Mexican people?
LOPEZ - (Translated question.)
TIRADO - In general.
CORNWELL - The same with respect to that part of the Mexican people like yourself who were sympathetic to the Cuban Revolution?
LOPEZ - (Translated.)
TIRADO - Well, yes, more or less. because I mean, if you're uh, how can I explain this, uh, if you're a President of a country that is against uh, against Latin America, undeveloped countries, you don't love them, of course, but you may see that is different, that he has been a good President, that he was, I think he was ingenious with his Alliance for Progress, that he tried to have more friends, not like Dulles who said we don't have friends, we have interests, things like that. Do you know that phrase?
CORNWELL - One more time.
LOPEZ - (Speaks to Tirado in Spanish.) Dulles.
TIRADO - He said once the United States has no friends, they have interests. (Speaks in Spanish.) And Kennedy tried to destroy that phrase, saying we want to have friends. And he was changing the politics of Latin America, Kennedy.
CORNWELL - So, you're saying that because of President Kennedy's policies towards Latin America, that even the part of the Mexican people who were sympathetic to the Cuban Revolution, they also very much liked President Kennedy?
TIRADO - I think so. Now, I'm not sure, I mean I--
CORNWELL - At least--
TIRADO - Yeah, but you make the difference with one President and another.
CORNWELL - I understood your answer to my question a moment ago but let me ask it one more time, nevertheless. I asked you if at any time during the early 1960's you had overheard any conversations among among people who were in favor of the Cuban Revolution to the effect that they would consider killing the President, and you answered with a statement on the logic of the situation, that you don't change the system by changing the President. Nevertheless, let me ask you again, more pointedly. Did you, nevertheless, ever overhear any such conversations?
CORNWELL - Did you ever overhear them within the Cuban Consulate or outside it?
CORNWELL - I'm sorry, go ahead.
TIRADO - No, but I'm Mexican ad I was in Mexico and I was working there and you have to see that uh, even though the Cuban people know I was a friend, they would not say things like that in front of me, of course, no?
CORNWELL - When the news came over the television and in the newspapers that President Kennedy had been killed, and then you heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald, and saw the picture, I guess you immediately reflected back on your contact, correct?
CORNWELL - At that time, did anything come into your mind in connection with those contacts that you could have read as foreknowledge, in other words, did it totally surprise you that that was the alleged assassin, or was there anything about your contact with him which him it understandable?
TIRADO - No. No, even now I don't think that he would have done it.
CORNWELL - You still don't think that he killed him?
TIRADO - No, because I think that he was a weak man. I saw that he could get angry, but uh, for me, he was not a man that could kill the President, because even when I saw him on television and he said all the time, "I'm innocent" and if I kill someone very important, I would be proud. I mean, because even if I'm with police I know that I'm going to be killed or die or something like that, I'd say, "Yes, I killed the President" and I don't think so.
CORNWELL - So based on all of your contacts with him, you do not think that he killed the President?
TIRADO - I don't think so.
CORNWELL - Let me ask you just some miscellaneous questions about the nature of your contact with him. Was there ever any conversations or indications about money problems that he had? Was that ever the sub- Page 6 ject of a conversation?
TIRADO - No. The thing that I remember only that he was very in a hurry because his visa was finished and I think he said, he mentioned that he only had three days to stay here in Mexico City.
CORNWELL - Did he ever indicate that he hoped the Cuban Government would finance his trip?
TIRADO - I don't think so.
CORNWELL - Had you ever done that before? Had the Consulate ever done that sort of thing?
TIRADO - No, no. We used to do that but they were visitors and we had instructions from Cuba, from the Cuban Government.
CORNWELL - Only visitors from cuba, is that what you mean?
TIRADO - No, no. For instance, your--the Cuban Revolutionary Anniversary, they invite people, they do have everything paid.
CORNWELL - In other words, it was persons that had been invited to go to Cuba by the Cuban Government?
TIRADO - Yes, yes.
CORNWELL - Well, even though, then would not have financed this trip, did he ask for such assistance?
TIRADO - At the time that I was working there, it never happens.
CORNWELL - Specifically Oswald.
CORNWELL - Did he ask for monetary assistance?
TIRADO - I don't remember. I don't think so. But I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Did he ever say anything or did you ever observe anything to indicate that he had traveling companions in Mexico City?
TIRADO - No, he didn't mention it.
CORNWELL - Did he ever say anything or do anything that indicated that he knew other people in Mexico City?
TIRADO - I don't know. I don't remember.
CORNWELL - To the best of your knowledge he knew no one, is that correct?
CORNWELL - Do you know when he left Mexico City?
CORNWELL - By what form of transportation?
CORNWELL - Did anyone ever call or come by the Consulate of his behalf?
CORNWELL - Did they ever deliver anything to the Consulate for him?
CORNWELL - There have, let me ask you this--Has any allegation ever been brought to your attention that you met with Oswald outside of the Consulate?
CORNWELL - On--let me show you two books, one of which is labeled photo- ident book and has roughly three inch by five inch pictures in it and the other one which is labeled JFK Document 7549 and has smaller pictures in it, and I'll turn the recorder off for a second and give you a few minutes to look through them and ask us, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the people in these photos.Recorder turned off.
CORNWELL - Okay. We've turned the tape recorder back on and you've had five minutes, maybe ten, I don't know, to look through the two books. In the first book, you only picked out photograph--
TIRADO - This looks like Fidel. But no exactly.
CORNWELL - Which one: Number 12?
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Who does that look like?
TIRADO - Fidel but not exactly.
CORNWELL - All right. Just a little.
TIRADO - Yeah. Page 9
CORNWELL - Okay. And you also I believe pointed to number 57 when you went through the book.
CORNWELL - And who do you think that is?
TIRADO - Oswald.
CORNWELL - Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, many of the pictures in the book are not that clear, of course. When you saw him the first time in the book, you indicated that that looked like him except that as you recalled him, he had either blue or green eyes and blond hair. Correct?
CORNWELL - When you say blond hair, what color is that? Is it very light?
TIRADO - Light.
CORNWELL - Let's see if we can find an example. Looking in the second book--that's all you found in the first book, correct?
CORNWELL - All right. Looking in the second book, uh, take as an example, Number 266 04 268, would that be basically what you recall to be the color of his hair, blond?
TIRADO - Yes. Here it looks very, very light, not that light.
CORNWELL - Okay. That would be what you describe as blond but your memory is that it was close but not quite as light as that?
CORNWELL - Okay, but the tape recorder was back away from us so just to make sure we got that answer, you picked out in the first book photograph #57. You stated that it looked like the way you recalled the man who came ot the Consulate except that he had blue or green eyes and blond hair. And then we were trying to determine what shade you recall the blond hair being, and I asked you--all these are black and white--if it would be similar to photos #266 and #268 in the book 7549? And you said in those pictures that it looks very light and that it would not have been that light, quite that light to your memory. Is that right?
TIRADO - Yes.(Long break.)
CORNWELL - I don't know how, working with black and white photos, we can do much better than that? But--
TIRADO - A little lighter than my eyebrows? There's another photo...In the second book, number 26 or 27. You also pointed to those photos when you went through the book. Would the color of that hair approximate the way you remember it?
TIRADO - No, because he had very light, almost white...
CORNWELL - Okay, again, it would be not as light as that?
CORNWELL - All right. Then going to the second book, you pointed to photograph #4, when you looked at the book the first time. What is your memory about that?
TIRADO - He reminds me of Mirabal, he reminds me but not exactly.
CORNWELL - All right. He looks a little like Mirabal?
CORNWELL - If I skip a photograph you remember looking at, let me know, but I jotted down some notes as you came to 'em when you looked at the book. You next pointed to number 26 and 27. Does that appear to you to be the same man?
CORNWELL - And who was that?
TIRADO - Ernesto Lefel. He used to work with my husband.
CORNWELL - Ernesto Lefel. And what's the nature of the association between he and your husband?
TIRADO - He was working with him.
CORNWELL - In the architectural business?
TIRADO - Yes, yes. He's a designer.
CORNWELL - He's a designer?
TIRADO - He started working with us. He learned some--
CORNWELL - Is he a social acquaintance of yours in addition?
TIRADO - Is what?
CORNWELL - Do you know him on a social basis in addition to his being a business associate your husband?
TIRADO - No business associate. He was working for him, for Horacio.
CORNWELL - Okay. That's what I meant. He was an assistant.
TIRADO - Assistant.
CORNWELL - All right.
TIRADO - No social. Sometimes he came to our house to dinner, or something like that.
CORNWELL - Next, you I believe pointed to Number 57. Is that correct? Fifty-seven?
CORNWELL - Who does that look like?
TIRADO - He looks like Gavino Fernandez.
CORNWELL - What's the first name?
TIRADO - Gavino.
CORNWELL - Gavino? And who is he?
TIRADO - Well, he's uh, dignitary, and he used to go to the Cuban Institute.
CORNWELL - He was a dignitary of what?
TIRADO - He was working for the Social Security and he was working, not in this government period, in the last one, and he was working even with the President.
CORNWELL - I see, so he was a dignitary of the Mexican Government.
TIRADO - But when he was going to the Cuban Institute, no, he didn't?
CORNWELL - You also knew him from the Cuban Institute?
TIRADO - He's an economist.
CORNWELL - He's a what?
TIRADO - Economist.
CORNWELL - Economist. You then pointed to number 65.
TIRADO - Perhaps.
CORNWELL - And that's a face that you're not sure you recognize?
CORNWELL - but looks a little bit like who?
TIRADO - Solchi Vargas.
CORNWELL - But looks a little but like who?
TIRADO - Solchi Vargas.
CORNWELL - Solchi Vargas?]Tirado: Yes.
CORNWELL - Okay. And who was she?
TIRADO - She's Mexican lady who was married with a journalist, he used to work for the Cuban press, and she used to live in Cuba. And now she's at the Cuban Institute.
CORNWELL - I believe you next pointed to Number 111---
CORNWELL - And that's a, sort of a three-quarter shot from behind.
TIRADO - yes.
CORNWELL - Of a man you think you might recognize, is that correct?
CORNWELL - I'm sort of trying to recall the way you stated it when you first looked at the photographs, so if I misstated it, just correct me. Who do you think that man may be?
TIRADO - The attache, the Cuban Cultural Attache at that time, Luis Alberu.
CORNWELL - Alberu?
TIRADO - Alberu.
CORNWELL - And then I believe you next indicated that you may recognize Photograph 115?
CORNWELL - And who is that?
TIRADO - Luis Alberu.
CORNWELL - That of course is a front and you can clearly recognize him from that photograph, is that correct?
CORNWELL - Then, you next pointed to Photograph 133. Do you recognize that man?
CORNWELL - Who is he?
TIRADO - The doorman. Now I don't remember the name.
CORNWELL - But he's the doorman who left Lee Harvey Oswald into the Consulate on his third visit?
CORNWELL - That's accurate?
TIRADO - Uh?...I said yes.
CORNWELL - Okay. And then I believe you pointed to photograph 158?
TIRADO - Numbers 157 and 158.
CORNWELL - 157 and 158. Who was that?
TIRADO - I think that he was working at the Consulate in Vera Cruz?
CORNWELL - And do you know what his position was at the Consulate?
TIRADO - I think he was vice Consul but I'm not really sure.
CORNWELL - And which Consulate is that?
TIRADO - In Vera Cruz, Cuban, the Cuban Consulate.
CORNWELL - The Cuban Consulate in vera Cruz. And I believe finally you recognized possibly the center man in the group photograph labeled 275.Tirado. Yes.
CORNWELL - And who do you think he is?
TIRADO - An American.
CORNWELL - Do you remember anything more about him?
CORNWELL - Do you remember where you saw him?
CORNWELL - Do you think you recognized the photo from a personal contact or from a picture?
TIRADO - From a picture I think. I think he was an American Ambassador.
CORNWELL - American Ambassador?
TIRADO - Or something like that.
CORNWELL - All right. And you don't have any memory what his name might be?
CORNWELL - Okay. Uh...
TIRADO - But tell me, who is it? (Laughter.) For a change.
CORNWELL - Do you recognize the man in photo 266? Yes, that's the one I want. 266?
TIRADO - No. He looks like Russian.
CORNWELL - Do you recognize the man in 265?
CORNWELL - Do you recognize the man in 213?
TIRADO - No. You're not going to tell me who's that man?
CORNWELL - Not right now. (Laughter.) But maybe later. When the assassination occurred, do you remember where you were, when you first heard the news reports?
TIRADO - At the consulate.
CORNWELL - And do you know what you did at that time?
TIRADO - No, it was almost noon, I mean the lunch hour, about two o'clock, or near two o'clock, and somebody came and said Kennedy was killed, and all was confusion and, uh, well, we were really sorry. Everybody came in and went out and there was confusion. All over. And then I went home to have lunch.
CORNWELL - Did you speak to Horatio or anyone else prior to going home?
TIRADO - I don't remember, really.
CORNWELL - When you went home was he at home?
TIRADO - We used to have lunch.
CORNWELL - And? As you recall he was there on that day?
TIRADO - It was my birthday so he has to be there. (Laughter.)
CORNWELL - What if any conversation do you recall having with him at that time about the assassination?
TIRADO - No, I don't remember. I only remember at night.
CORNWELL - All right. You had a birthday party planned that night. Is that correct?
CORNWELL - During the day, prior to the birthday party, had you received or heard as part of the news broadcast the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
TIRADO - No, only in the afternoon.
CORNWELL - In the afternoon, after lunch?
CORNWELL - After you returned to the consulate, is that correct?
TIRADO - Perhaps.
CORNWELL - And at that time, did you think you remembered the name?
TIRADO - It was, I think, at night, because, it was in the afternoon, perhaps when they start saying about Oswald. Right? and, it was at night and uh, I don't know if I call my husband or we were in the kitchen mixing some drinks or food, I don't know, but we were in the Kitchen and I told him, I think this man went to the Embassy to ask for a visa.
CORNWELL - And at that time, had you heard his name?
TIRADO - His name?
CORNWELL - His name, seen his picture, or both?
TIRADO - No, no. The picture was in the newspapers the next day.
CORNWELL - Okay. So you only thought that you might have recalled the name. Is that correct?
TIRADO - No, not the name, but when they say Lee Harvey Oswald, married to the Russian woman and he live in Russia, and things like that.
CORNWELL - Okay. Did you have any other discussion that you can recall with him about it? based on that news report? About your contact?
TIRADO - With my husband?
TIRADO - I only told him, I think this man came to the Embassy.
CORNWELL - Then, the next morning you saw a newspaper.
CORNWELL - Were you sure at that time that that was the man?
CORNWELL - Do you remember who was at the birthday party that night? Do you remember whether or not you discussed these events with any one else at the party?
TIRADO - Yes, we were talking about it.
CORNWELL - Whoever was at the party.
TIRADO - The whole night, yes.
CORNWELL - What was the time of the party?
TIRADO - Sorrow. And speculation, what's going on? Because with Kennedy we knew that was going on, but now, what will happen?
CORNWELL - The next morning what did you do?
TIRADO - I show the paper to Horatio and told him this is the man that went to the Embassy and I went to the Consulate and I look in the Archivos and I saw the application, I saw that it was the man and I went to the Embassy and I talked to the Ambassador and I told him that this... Solvia Tirado Interview
CORNWELL - What was the nature of your conversation with the Ambassador? Just to tell him that that was the man?
TIRADO - Yes. I think so.
CORNWELL - What was his name?
TIRADO - Fernandez Armes (or Hernandez).Cernwell: And, did you do anything else? Did you pull the file on him or make any other attempts to put the facts together?
TIRADO - I think I leave the file with him.
CORNWELL - Pulled the file and left it with the Ambassador?
TIRADO - Yeah, the whole bunch.
CORNWELL - What would have been in the file besides the application, if anything?
TIRADO - Another applications.
CORNWELL - I see, you pulled the whole file which included his application?
CORNWELL - Did anything else happen that morning at work?
CORNWELL - Then, did you go home for lunch again?
CORNWELL - And what occurred at that time?
TIRADO - Uh, my brothers-in-law, servant, maid came and when she saw me, she cried, she started crying, and she said "You're alive?" And I say "why?", because some man came to the house and says that uh, you had an accident and you were dead and they take away Senor Ruben to identify you." Then we went to Ruben's house and it was full of men and they catch me.
CORNWELL - They caught you. Okay. And the men were representatives of the Mexican police, is that corect?
TIRADO - Yeah, but they never told me.
CORNWELL - What happened when you walked into the house, to Ruben's house?
TIRADO - I saw my brothers-in-law, wife, and the same thing. She cries, and says "Silvia, you're okay?" "Yes, I'm okay." She was between two men and she couldn't get near to me, but I was walking and I saw in the bedroom, it was Ruben, and full of photographs on the bed and he said the same thing--"Silvia, you're okay, you're all right?" and I say "Yes" and "What happened?" Then I saw the telephone and I try to get the telephone and a man hold my hand and he says you can't call because you are under arrest, and they say, I don't remember, but they say, ah, this is the accomplice of Kennedy. I thought that's what they told but I say I don't remember. They told me, "You're under arrest." I sat down on the bed and I said "You have to show me an order signed by a judge that I am under arrest." Then they hold me, my hands, and I try to defend myself, and they kicked somebody and they took me--
CORNWELL - You were trying to kick them and keep them from taking you with them, right?
TIRADO - Yes, yes.
CORNWELL - Who were you going to call on the telephone?
TIRADO - The police.(Laughter.)
TIRADO - The police, the lawyer, I don't know. And when they took me out of the house and I was crying, "Call the police, call the police!" and they, he covered my mouth, and they took me to stationwagon that was parked at the corner. There was a man there but I didn't know him and I was quiet, and they say, "Don't cry. Scandalous woman." "Scandalous old woman, shut up. Because where we are going we will see what's going to happen to you." So, in that moment, I said quit.
CORNWELL - So you were taken to the police station.
TIRADO - No. It's not the police station. The office where the security, that was where the intelligence agencies were in. But I didn't know that because that building belongs to the State Social Security. Not the one I work for.
TIRADO - For government employees.
CORNWELL - And who else was taken down there besides you?
TIRADO - The whole--my brother-in-law, his wife, my sister-in-law, a friend of hers, another woman that was there, and me, but they were taken in another car.
CORNWELL - And, at the police station what inquiries were made of you? What did they ask?
TIRADO - Everything. Everything. They asked me my name, where was I born, my jobs, when I married, my status, everything. They have my finger-prints, photographs of myself, everything. And uh, well, they ask me where I was working, if I had been in Cuba, some people that I saw in Cuba, and what I was doing at the Consulate, that there was a tunnel, that makes me laugh, it was a tunnel from the Cuban Embassy to the Russian Embassy, and uh, well, a lot of foolish questions.
CORNWELL - Specifically, what did they allege that you had done?
TIRADO - What?
CORNWELL - Specifically, what did they allege you had done? What did they accuse you of doing?
TIRADO - Nothing. They never said--
CORNWELL - During the questioning on all the subject matters that you had mentioned, did they make a verbatim transcript?
TIRADO - They used a little machine. They say it is a stenograph or something like that.
CORNWELL - They made a stenograph record.
TIRADO - Yeah, and a man was writing.
CORNWELL - All the questions and all the answers?
CORNWELL - Did any of the procedures that we have asked you about cousel you to say anything to the police that was not the truth?
TIRADO - No, I don't think so. I don't have nothing to hide. So...
CORNWELL - Everything that you told them was the truth?
CORNWELL - At any time during the questioning did they ever allege that you had met with Oswald outside the consulate?
TIRADO - Yes. A lot of times.
CORNWELL - Did they ever ask you any questions about a Negro?
TIRADO - I don't remember.
CORNWELL - You don't remember anything about that?
CORNWELL - Did you ever know, during this same period of time, any Negroes?
TIRADO - Yes. At the Commercial Attache was a Negro.
CORNWELL - Anyone else?
TIRADO - The doorman.
CORNWELL - Anyone else?
TIRADO - The wife of the Commercial Attache. And the children.
CORNWELL - Is that all? Did they ask any specific questions about them?
CORNWELL - What was his name?
TIRADO - I don't remember. I even don't remember if he was there when Kennedy was shot.
CORNWELL - Were they from Cuba?
CORNWELL - Did you know any other Negroes from Cuba outside the Consulate?
TIRADO - I don't think so. Well, this man, the boy at Consulado at Vera Cruz. He was a Negro, not completely, but--
CORNWELL - The one you showed us in the photograph?
CORNWELL - Did you know any Negroes who had red hair? None of the ones you described did?
TIRADO - No, we used to call "Red to a boy who was working there but he was like Spanish; I mean he was white and--
CORNWELL - Not even very dark skinned?
CORNWELL - Remember his name?
TIRADO - Rogelio, Rogelio Rodriguez, I think, something like that.
CORNWELL - After the questioning, first, how did that terminate? When did they finally release you?
TIRADO - About One o'clock.
CORNWELL - Did you meet again with your family, your husband? Silvia Tirado
TIRADO - Yes. Well, they were waiting for me and... we went to have lunch, something to eat because we haven't had. And well, we talk about it.
CORNWELL - Remember where you went?
TIRADO - No. Horacio told me we went to Sanborn's. I don't remember. I even don't remember when I got home and what happened. Next day everyone know.
CORNWELL - Did the officers from the Securidad Department ever suggest to you during the questioning that they had information that you and Oswald had been lovers?
TIRADO - Yes, and also that we were communists and that we were planning the Revolution and uh, a lot of false things.
CORNWELL - What happened the next day?
TIRADO - Well, we stayed home and at night a friend of ours came and we didn't say anything.
CORNWELL - Why was that?
CORNWELL - Why did you not say anything?
TIRADO - Because these people told me to keep quiet.
CORNWELL - The police?
CORNWELL - Or the officers?
CORNWELL - Did you then go back over to the Consulate either Sunday or Monday? Silvia Tirado
TIRADO - On Monday.
CORNWELL - Okay. What happened then?
TIRADO - When I got there everybody ask me what happened? And I say "Why?" And in the newspaper was the this part of the question that I told you about, Azcue telling Oswald to go away.
CORNWELL - It was in the newspapers?
CORNWELL - How did the newspapers get that story?
TIRADO - I don't know.
CORNWELL - You never had any idea?
TIRADO - Well, of course. The police gave it to Excelsior. It was the first government newspaper.
CORNWELL - So you just always thought they got it from the police?
CORNWELL - But the people at the Consulate said they had read the newspaper and asked you what had happened, right?
CORNWELL - Did you discuss that with anybody that you can remember specifically?
TIRADO - With the Ambassador.
CORNWELL - And what was the nature of that conversation?
TIRADO - I tried to repeat all the questions.
CORNWELL - Okay. Uh..would that have been a violation of what the police asked you to do? To talk to the Ambassador about that?
CORNWELL - Was that a violation of what the police asked you to do? Was that...
TIRADO - Well, of course, They told me to keep quiet. I never says anything about what happened on Saturday. Never. but when I saw in the papers I couldn't say "Well, nothing happened." It was all in the paper and it was exactly what I said to the police.
CORNWELL - What did the Ambassador say to you?
TIRADO - That he was going to write a report and he sent it in the plane.
CORNWELL - What if anything did you consider doing at the time?
TIRADO - What?
CORNWELL - Did you consider taking any course of action at the time?
TIRADO - Oh. I was going to make a protest to the Mexican Government. We went to, a friend of mine was a daughter of the Chief of Tinetraph and we could reach the President and we were going to ask to explain what happened and you know, there was an illegal (tape stops)...
CORNWELL - Did in additional to your considering filing formal protest with the Mexican government, did you also consider taking a trip out of the country?
CORNWELL - Did you consider going to Cuba?
CORNWELL - What happened after that?
TIRADO - Well, I told to the Ambassador all that happened during the questioning and I told him also about the protest that we wanted to make and I asked him, "Don't do anything because we are trying to do something here, against these police." And after that, uh, Tuesday, I went to work and Wednesday morning when I was going to have breakfast the police came again, two agents, and they asked me, very polite, if I want to go with them, just to answer some questions. They wanted to know something. And, uh, it was unnecessary to take my car because they were going to take me and bring me back. So I called uh, the Consulate. That's why I remember I already had the telephone and I said I'm coming in late because I'm going to the police station. okay don't worry, we wait for you. And they keep me two days and a half.
CORNWELL - And why did they tell you that they kept you this time?
TIRADO - Oh, to protect me.
CORNWELL - Did they tell you anything in any more detail? Was there a specific threat? 90
TIRADO - No. They were very rough this time. They were very angry with me, the man that I told you, that I kicked him in his balls. He was very angry, and they repeat the same questions but they were more, how you say, how do you say anticipito?
LOPEZ - They anticipated her.
TIRADO - And they were, wanted to know exactly what I have done in Cuba, the people that I met there, everything. They were asking me questions about all the people that were working in the Embassy and uh, this time I wanted to go to the bathroom and they wouldn't take me and it was longer, because it was about 10:00 from 10:00, I think almost 6:00, they questioned me.
CORNWELL - Were you afraid during the two periods they held you?
TIRADO - Yes. I don't know exactly what happened but I was uh, I was innocent. So I said, what am I doing here, no? And uh, the only thing that I have, I had the feeling that I was going to die and I said okay, if I'm going to die, I'm going to die, how you say it, with pride, my child will not be shamed. I remember I do anything that--I was very dramatic in those moments. So, sometimes I lost my temper. I never say no bad words or nothing. I cry sometimes, I shout and things like that but then I sat down again.
CORNWELL - As I understand it, they tried to scare you, is that correct? 91
TIRADO - Yes. The first time.
CORNWELL - The first time. Because of that was there anything that you knew that you simply refused to tell them?
TIRADO - That's what they thought. Because all the time they tell me that I was a Communist and I said I'm not a Communist, but do you believe in Socialism? Yes, I believe in Socialism but I'm not a Communist; and they insisted that I was a very important people for the government, the Cuban Government, and that I was the link for the International Communists--the Cuban Communists, the Mexican Communists and the American Communists, and that we were going to kill Kennedy, and I was the link. For them I was very important. Of course, it was not true.
CORNWELL - Okay. Even though you were innocent of those charges, you had not conspired to kill the President and were not in the Communist Party.
CORNWELL - Because that was what they were interested in, because that was the nature of the allegation, did you withhold any part of your story? Were you afraid that something you had done, although innocent, they might have misconstrued, misunderstood, so did you withhold any information from them because of the very severe accusations they were making?
TIRADO - No. I tried to answer it, what they asked me I tried to answer. All the time.
CORNWELL - You understand though, the kind of question I'm asking you?(Tirado spoke to Lopez in Spanish, who asked Cornwell to repeat the question.)
CORNWELL - Okay, let me just ask you a hypothetical. Sometimes, a person has done something completely innocent but then they are confronted with avery severe accusation. They may think that their innocent act will be misunderstood by their accusers so they might withhold the innocent act simply to be sure that they don't get into more trouble--
CORNWELL - Simply to be sure they don't get into more trouble than they apparently are already in.
CORNWELL - There was no thing that you had done or seen or knew about that you withheld because of that?
TIRADO - No. No, I explain everything that they wanted to know and uh, I think sometimes they were fools.
CORNWELL - They were what?
LOPEZ - Fools.
TIRADO - Tonto. Fools.
CORNWELL - After they finally released you, they held you for another two, two and a half days. Did you make any trips out of the country then?
CORNWELL - How long did you continue to be married to Horatio after that?
TIRADO - Five years.
CORNWELL - Why were you finally divorced?
TIRADO - We separate and we divorce perhaps four years after.
CORNWELL - Why was that?
TIRADO - Why? Why we divorce four years after? Because we don't like.
CORNWELL - Go ahead.
TIRADO - Because he did not want to get legal problems and he said that it was a lot of problems to get divorced. He was married once so he said that it was nonsense.
CORNWELL - Why were you separated?
TIRADO - Because I used to believe in the romantic love, and even we have a very, how you say that, uh, we loved each other very much but it was not the passionate love that I used to believe in, so I thought it better to divorce, get divorced. It is very difficult to explain.(Tirado speaks to Lopez in Spanish.)
LOPEZ - They were incompatible, had incompatible characters.
CORNWELL - You have not spoken to anybody in the news media or any official investigating body since 1963 about these events, is that correct, except for the Washington Post and that was approximately a year or so ago, a year and a half ago?
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - You indicate that you read some part of the Warren Commission Report recently. Do you recall anything about that that was inaccurate other than what you have already related? The part that you read.
TIRADO - What?
CORNWELL - Was there any part of that which was inaccurate that you can recall?
TIRADO - What I said. That I was exceeding my duties. Cornwell. Had you either done anything or offered to do anything for Oswald other than what you have already described to us?
CORNWELL - And was that all within the scope of your responsibility?
TIRADO - It was...?
CORNWELL - Was it all within the scope of your authority?
TIRADO - Scope?(Lopez translates.)
TIRADO - Yes.(Tirado speaks to Lopez in Spanish.)
CORNWELL - Did you ever have any of the people at the Cuban Consulate attend parties in your home? Was there a social relationship with any of them?
CORNWELL - Which ones?
TIRADO - Azcue, Maria Carmen, I think Luisa, she went once.
CORNWELL - Who is that? Luisa?
TIRADO - Luisa Caldaron, the one you ask me.
CORNWELL - Okay. Azcue, Luisa, and the secretary who was killed, is that correct?
TIRADO - Before, before this, before I used to work at the Embassy, uh, and before we move to Constitutyentes we make some parties, for instance, when Armando Hart (Ph.) was here, he was the Minister of Education, and with the Ambassador he was in that time and Organa, who was Director of the Movies Institute. Some people who came from Cuba. We used to invite.
CORNWELL - Okay. How about Theresa Proenza?
TIRADO - Perhaps she came.
CORNWELL - Did you ever receive any indication from them that any of them had ever had a contact with Oswald?
CORNWELL - Did Elena or Elinita Garro do Paz ever come to those parties? In your home?
CORNWELL - Or in the home of Ruben? 96
TIRADO - Once, but it was, I think it was before that I was in the Cuban Embassy.
CORNWELL - Would it have been aproximately around '63?
TIRADO - I don't know because when they came from France...
CORNWELL - Approximately 1963?
TIRADO - I only, perhaps, I don't know.Hardy: Did you say that it was when they came from France?
HARDAWAY - It was after they returned from France that they came to one of the parties?
TIRADO - Yeah, to Ruben's house.
HARDAWAY - At Ruben's house.
TIRADO - Yeah. That was the whole family there. I only saw Elensa a few times. One was the day that I got married and another time was somewhere else, I think three times I only saw her.
CORNWELL - Did you know General Clark Flores?
TIRADO - Yeah, but not very well.
CORNWELL - Was he ever at those parties?
TIRADO - I don't remember. Perhaps once, at Ruben's house but not at my house.
CORNWELL - Did you know Emilio Carbillido?
CORNWELL - Did he ever attend those parties?
TIRADO - I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Did Devaci?
TIRADO - Devaci. Elena's sister.
CORNWELL - Did she attend those parties?
TIRADO - No, she went, I think I saw her sometimes at the Embassy.
CORNWELL - How about Eunice Odio?
TIRADO - No. I know her, I mean I met her sometime. But, no. She was not a close friend.
CORNWELL - Over the years, have any of those people ever indicated to you that they had any knowledge of Oswald's trip to Mexico city?
CORNWELL - Have they ever professed to have either seen him or heard any stories about any one who did see or meet with him?
CORNWELL - Has anyone else ever come to you since 1963 and professed to have knowledge of Oswald's trip to Mexico City?
CORNWELL - Would you have any reason to believe that if we spoke to any of those people they could have information of help to us?
TIRADO - I don't know.
CORNWELL - Have you ever had any association with any intelligence agency of any country, including our own? 98
TIRADO - Once I met a Russian when I was working at the Press Agency but he was from the Russian Press, and they say that he was from the police, the Russian Police but I don't know.
CORNWELL - But you just met him one time?
CORNWELL - I don't have any additional questions.
LOPEZ - I have a few questions of Ms. Duran. As normal procedure, when a person came to the Cuhban Consulate, do you explain to them that there are different types of visas?
LOPEZ - So they would normally come to you and ask you for a special type of visa, and then you would get that kind of application?
TIRADO - Uh, huh.
LOPEZ - Okay.
TIRADO - the application was the same.
LOPEZ - Same application. But they were different visas.
TIRADO - There were only two visas. Transit visa and normal visa.
LOPEZ - You didn't normally explain to people whether there were two different types of visas when they came to you until after--
TIRADO - Perhaps. Lopez: Okay. I just wanted to read to you a couple of sections of what was recorded in the Warren Commission Report. What happened was, there was a report given by the mexican authorities to the Warren Commission and it was published in the report given by the Mexican authorities to the Warren Commission and it was published in the report and let me read you one sentence, okay? The declarant complied with her duties, took down all the information and completed the appropriate application form, and the declarant admittedly, exceeding her responsibilities, informally telephoned the Russian Consulate with the intention of doing what she could to faciliate issuance of the Russian visa to Lee Harvey Oswald. Is that statement accurate?
TIRADO - It's that one and I don't like it. The other one?
LOPEZ - That part about admittedly exceeding her responsibilities?
TIRADO - Uh, huh.
CORNWELL - That's the part you had reference to earlier when you told us that you had read something--
LOPEZ - It says here that you telephoned the Russian Consulate.
LOPEZ - Did he ever telephone you back?
LOPEZ - Okay. And it says here with the intention of doing what she could to facilitate issuance of the Russian visa. Did you ever do anything else to facilitate the issuance of the visa?
TIRADO - No, nothing. I couldn't do anything.
LOPEZ - Did you ever explain to him that in order to get a visa he could have a recommendation letter from a fellow Communist or a fellow Cuban citizen, and then if he had that letter, he could get a visa?
TIRADO - Yeah, that was one of the requirements.
LOPEZ - And then, did you ever send him to anyone, give him the name of anybody?
TIRADO - No, never. I mean I never did that.
LOPEZ - I see. Okay. Then there's another section here that says: However, they told her (this is the Russian Consulate) that there would be a delay of about four months in processing the case. Was that the first time that you explained to Lee Harvey Oswald that it would take him about four months to get a visa?
TIRADO - Yes, I didn't know it.
LOPEZ - Was that when he became angry?
TIRADO - More or less.
LOPEZ - More or less. And that would have been on his third visit?
LOPEZ - Okay. Then there's one other section here. It says: The Consulate who came out and began a heated discussion in English with Oswald, that concluded by Azcue telling him that if it were up to him he would not give him the visa and a person of this type was harming the Cuban Revolution rather than helping it. It being understood that in the conversation they were talking about the Russian Socialist Revolution and not the Cuban. Is that correct?
LOPEZ - What is your understanding of that?
TIRADO - The conversation that he had with Azcue, was exclusively with the Cuban Revolution.
LOPEZ - Exclusively with the Cuban Revolution. I wanted to ask you, in this report here, they don't say how many times Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Cuban Consulate. Did you ever tell the Mexican officials how many times he had visited?
TIRADO - I think so.
LOPEZ - And it was probably taken down by a stenographer.
LOPEZ - Do you consider this report which is about a page long to be completely fair and accurate and complete?
TIRADO - No, because about exceeding my duties and about Azcue speaking about the Russian Revolution, that's not true.
LOPEZ - But, my question is, they interrogated you from about four in the afternoon until about twelve at night, and in that process you spoke to them for eight whole hours and yet the whole conversation, interrogation, has been reduced to one page. Do you consi- der this accurate? Is it complete?
TIRADO - No, of course not. Because they ask me a lot of questions that has not been in the Warren--about my trip to Cuba, about my job atthe Institute, the Cuban Institute, about why I have been Communist, as they say, and i say I'm not a Communist, and it takes hours to explain them. And as you explain you are not a Communist, if you are a member of the Communist Party, things like that, and where did you take your beliefs, no? I say at the University, oh, at the University, and then there's a discussion and uh, the classes I take at the University, and things like that.
LOPEZ - Okay. You do remember telling the Mexican officials when they questioned you how many times Oswald visited the Consulate?
TIRADO - I think so. And I, they asked me I don't know how many times, the way that I used to give my name and telephone number and they made me write and they take the paper out and then again, they ask me, how do you do this, and I write it down, and I give the paper. I think I did it five or six times.
LOPEZ - And did they ever ask you to describe Oswald?
LOPEZ - Would you do me a favor and describe him for me now?Solvia Tirado Interview
LOPEZ - For example, let's start at the beginning. Was he tall, short?
TIRADO - Short.
LOPEZ - Short. Could you stand up for a minute, Gary?(Laughter.) Would you say he was as tall as Gary?
TIRADO - Yeah, more or less.
LOPEZ - Would you say he was taller than Gary?
TIRADO - No, I think just the same. He was about my size.
LOPEZ - About your height?
TIRADO - Yeah.
LOPEZ - Okay. And what's your height?
TIRADO - 160. I think 160 or 162.
LOPEZ - Was he skinny?
TIRADO - Yes. Skinny.
LOPEZ - Could you estimate how much he weighed?
TIRADO - About your weight, more or less.
LOPEZ - About my weight. We already went over...
TIRADO - He has stronger shoulders, perhaps, than yours.
LOPEZ - Just for the record, my weight is 199 pounds. You told us before he had a suit on.
TIRADO - That I don't remember very well. I think he was wearing a jacket but what I can remember is that he was not wearing nice clothers, expensive clothing. He was cheap, perhaps.
LOPEZ - Do you remember what his nose looked like? Was it skinny? Fat?
TIRADO - No. He was normal. There was nothing that you may remember. The eyes were small.
LOPEZ - Small eyes.
TIRADO - Smaller than yours.
LOPEZ - Smaller than mine, for the record. I can't do that.
TIRADO - If you describe, you say small eyes.
CORNWELL - Okay. In sum, you identified a picture in the book as being as best as you can remember his face and hair. Was there anything about that which in your memory was different from the picture other than the fact that you do remember his eyes being blue or green and his hair being very light colored or blond but not as light as some of the other pictures look.
TIRADO - And he has not very much. He was, has few, poco pelo.
LOPEZ - He didn't have very much hair.
CORNWELL - Is there anything else about that picture in the book which does not look like your memory of him?
TIRADO - No, but because even when I saw the television when he was shot, I used to remember him. I mean it was the same that I remember..
LOPEZ - I understand. If you bear with me just a few more minutes--his hair line, was it receding?
TIRADO - Yeah, yeah. Quite a bit.
LOPEZ - Okay. And his cheeks, were they high cheek bones or low cheek bones? Do you remember that?
TIRADO - Well, I remember that he was a little, I don't know what you call it (spoke with Lopez in Spanish.)Lopez An elongated face.
TIRADO - Uh huh.
LOPEZ - Did he have a long chin?
LOPEZ - (To Cornwell) : Do you have any more questions about his description?
LOPEZ - (To Duran): Just wanted to ask you a few other questions. Did Luis Aparicio ever attend any of those twist parties that you had, or that Ruben had?
TIRADO - No, Ruben never, Ruben never have parties for the people at the Embassy.
LOPEZ - Did he ever attend?
TIRADO - Aparico, he was, I don't remember, where he was, I think he works in the Commercial Office. I don't remember.
LOPEZ - You don't remember if he went to any parties?
TIRADO - No. But he was at the Cuban Embassy.Lopez; Okay. Do you know a person named Eunice Odio?
LOPEZ - What was your relationship to Eunice Odio?
TIRADO - It was not close. I know her because she's a poetess and uh, well, I know a lot of painters, things like that, but just hello and..perhaps if I meet her now I don't know if I could recognize or even she recognize me.
LOPEZ - I see. And did she ever attend any of those parties?
LOPEZ - Do you know a person named Ricardo Guerra?
LOPEZ - And what was your relationship to him?
TIRADO - Very close.
LOPEZ - Very close. Could you elaborate?
TIRADO - Well, when I was unmarried I had a lot of friends and his sisters were friends of mine, that's when I met him, before I got married. And when I married, we continued our friendship and uh, he got married with a writer, but I admire her very much, and he was a very close friend of mine, and we continue the relation all the time that we were married. Both. And uh, how was professor atthe philosophy faculty, he was my teacher also. I mean he was a close friend.
LOPEZ - I see. He was a professor, you said.
LOPEZ - Did you ever attend any seminars at the University of Mexico where he was lecturing?
TIRADO - No, we used to have in our house.
LOPEZ - What were those seminars about?
TIRADO - Marxism seminar.
LOPEZ - You never, though, attended any seminars at the University of Mexico?
TIRADO - No, he was a teacher and I used to take lessons with him. Existentialism, you know? (Spoke in Spanish.) Only two courses.
LOPEZ - Do you know if he ever held seminars at the University of Mexico?
TIRADO - He had to.
LOPEZ - By any chance do you remember if he would ever hold seminars on Saturdays?
LOPEZ - No, he did not or no, you do not remember?
TIRADO - I don't know, I don't know.
HARDAWAY - I've just got a few questions that if you'll bear with me... During the three times that you met Oswald, did you ever hear him speak any language other than English?
HARDAWAY - In general, in the Consulate's Office, was it common for any other language other than Spanish to be spoken?
HARDAWAY - Was Russian ever commonly spoken at the Consulate's Office?
HARDAWAY - Do you remember anyone having spoken Russian in that office?
HARDAWAY - At any time?
TIRADO - No, I don't think. The only language they speak, it was English and not everybody, just a few of them.
HARDAWAY - When Oswald came back the third time, did he tell you that he had a Russian visa or that the Russians had told him that there wouldn't be any problem?
TIRADO - That he was going to get the Russian visa, that there was no problem.
HARDAWAY - Did he tell you that he was going to get it, or that he already had it?
TIRADO - He said I already got it.
HARDAWAY - And he told you that he already had it as oposed to telling that they had assured him that there was no problem?
HARDAWAY - Could you tell me what Eusebio Azcue thought about John Fitzgerald Kennedy, President Kennedy?
TIRADO - What he thought? About the assassination?
HARDAWAY - No, about President Kennedy.
TIRADO - I don't know, I don't remember.
HARDAWAY - Did you ever discuss President Kennedy with consul Azcue?
TIRADO - No, he was not about the assassination but about Kennedy and his policies and things like that.
TIRADO - No.Hardway. Did you ever hear Azcue discuss it with anyone else?
LOPEZ - I don't remember if he came. His son came, and I don't remember if he came once to Mexico and he told me about the conversation that he had with Fidel Castro but I told you the other day what Fidel Castro but I told you the other day what Fidel says and all of that and t he way they write a protest to Mexico, to the Mexican Government, but I'm not really sure if he was his son, or if he was Azcue.
LOPEZ - Would you have seen Azcue at any time during the last two years?
TIRADO - So, I think that I never saw him again. His son, he came, I saw him, but, Azcue, I don't remember.
LOPEZ - Do you know if Eusebio Azcue is still in Cuba?
TIRADO - I think so. I don't know.
HARDAWAY - Did you ever discuss with Consul Azcue the policies of United States towards Cuba? Or other Latin American countries?
TIRADO - Perhaps we did, but I don't remember.
HARDAWAY - Do you remember by chance what Azcue's views would have been on that? Did you ever discuss Azcue's views on changing that policy?
TIRADO - What I remember is that during the Blockade (spoke to Lopez in Spanish.)
LOPEZ - The Student Economic Bloc of 1968. The strike, I'm sorry. The economic blockade.
TIRADO - What I remember but I don't remember exactly if it was Azcue, the Commercial Attache, the Ambassador, but what I remember, it was all the people, they have expectations and they were how you say, trusting, that with Kennedy, the policy of the American Government was changing. They were hoping... Hardway: Did you or anyone else at the Consulate ever offer Lee Harvey Oswald any aid of any kind?
TIRADO - No.Harday: Did you ever know a person by the name of Guillermo Ruiz?
HARDAWAY - Just for the record, when you were arrested on that Saturday afternoon, what time that arrest was, approximately?
TIRRADO - About three o'clock.
HARDAWAY - Was the interrogation that was conducted at that time transcribed or taped?
TIRADO - It was written and when I sign I read it.
HARDAWAY - Was it written out in a summary form or was it written out as you said it?
TIRADO - They change, because once it was a man with a little machine, and another moment it was a man writing, typing.
HARDAWAY - But most of it was taken down literally, as you said it? Or did you sign a summary of that?(Lopez translated.)
TIRADO - No, no, no. They were typing, all the time. They were typing all the time, even once, I don't know how many times, they told me, slow, because he was writing. But they didn't write exactly what I said sometimes because when I read all of that bunch of papers they say, come on, it's one o'clock, here, sign this. I said, no, I'm not going to sign this if I not read it. And sometimes I said this, I didn't say that. For instance, no? For instance, I'd remember, they say she was very, very glad when Kennedy came. And I say no. I said I like it but I didn't say that I was very, very glad. Things like that, no? But almost, it was what I said. But they didn't want to change anything.
HARDAWAY - Okay. Did you ever discuss the allegation that they made that you had been lee Harvey Oswald's lover with your husband?
TIRADO - Well, I told him almost all what happened. He told me what they did to him and I told him what they did to me.
HARDAWAY - Do you remember specifically talking about that specific allegation with your husband?
TIRADO - No, it was not important.
HARDAWAY - Going back to when you recognized Oswald, the man whose picture you had seen in the paper as the man who had been at the Embassy three times. Were you certain that the man in the papers was the same man, before you checked your records at the archives?
TIRADO - Yes. Immediately I saw the paper, I told him. This was the man that I want to check.
HARDAWAY - To your knowledge, was Horatio ever a member of the communist Party?
TIRADO - I think that he was, I don't know if he was exactly member, but he was sympathizer and we had a lot of friends that they were members of the Communist Party.
HARDAWAY - Uh, to your knowledge, was Horatio ever a member of any intelligence organization?
TIRADO - I don't remember exactly. I think he was working for the, how you say that? I think he was in a campaign. Against the drugs.
HARDAWAY - Do you know when that would have been?
HARDAWAY - Do you know when he would have been a sympathizer for, with the Communist Party?
TIRADO - Well, I'm completely sure. Being Communist, being policeman. All of that, it was after I meet him.
HARDAWAY - Do you know why--
TIRADO - Do you know why they asked you to keep quiet after the first interrogation?
TIRADO - No, I don't.
HARDAWAY - Did you ever attend a party where Lee Harvey Oswald was present?
TIRADO - The party where Lee, no, I don't know that he attends some parties.
HARDAWAY - The question was, did you ever attend a party where he was present?
HARDAWAY - That's all I've got.
CORNWELL - Just two brief matters and I promise we will end this very long questioning session. The questions which were just asked you about which languages he spoke, by Mr. Hardway, when the call was made to the Russian Embassy, what language was spoken there?
TIRADO - Spanish.
CORNWELL - Did the Russians speak Spanish too?
CORNWELL - Did at any point in that conversation Russian-speaking people get involved? Did anyone at the Russian Embassy speak Russian to you?
TIRADO - I don't speak Russian.
CORNWELL - Well. I understand that. Did you at any point put Oswald on the phone and let him talk?
TIRADO - No, no.
CORNWELL - The reason I'm asking of course is to try to jog your memory. Did he at any point in that transaction speak Russian? Did Oswald speak Russian that you recall?
CORNWELL - The second question, just to be sure that we've got your memory as accurate as we can on it, have you not spoken to Azcue at all since 1963?
TIRADO - That's something that I don't exactly remember. If he came once or if he was with his son, but I knew all about Fidel's and Azcue's conversations.
CORNWELL - So you do remember either talking to Azcue or his son about the Oswald trip?
TIRADO - Not the Oswald trip, the Fidel, what he says. Because Azcue was called by Fidel Castro in that day when the Cuban Ambassador sent my report. That's what I told you the other day. In the same day they speak to azcue, Fidel, they spoke, they have a conversation, and then on the second day, that Sunday present, they protest to Mexican Ambassador.
CORNWELL - You described to us earlier hwo the Ambassador filed a report. Did you ever see the report?
CORNWELL - Do you know what was in to by any other means? To the best of your knowledge, it would at least have(Tape ends.) (Loss of information due to tape end)Silvia Tirado (Duran)
CORNWELL - Okay. The first part of your memory is that, as I understand it, the Ambassador filed a report within three days or so after the assassination and your arrest, right? Then you mentioned something about Fidel talking to Azcue is that correct?
CORNWELL - How did you learn that?
TIRADO - That's what I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Okay. At any rate, what can you remember about the nature of the contact. between Azcue and Fidel?
TIRADO - Fidel asked him what happened exactly that day in the Consulate and Azcue tried to remember everything and he said what he knew, that Fidel was afraid of uh, if I was going to say something false to, because I was threatened by the police, and uh, Ascue says that no, that I was honest and I was not going to do anything false. that that was not the right thing, the truth...
CORNWELL - Okay. In other words, Fidel was worried about the possibility that you would say something against the Cuban Government?
CORNWELL - And that's because you were a Mexican citizen, is that correct?Silvia Tirado
TIRADO - And I was,...(asked lopez how to translate) threatened.
CORNWELL - Okay. So he was afraid that the Mexican authorities might threaten you and that you might say something against the Cuban Government?
TIRADO - Yeah. Because the police many times told me, you have to say the truth. Remember that you have a little child. And...remember, you have a daughter. And remember you have a daughter. All the time they were telling me this.
CORNWELL - Okay. Did you possess any information that might have incriminated the Cuban Government?
CORNWELL - And you can't remember how it is that you learned about this questioning of Azcue by Fidel, is that right?
TIRADO - Yeah.
CORNWELL - Then, several years later, you had another conversation with either Azcue or his son, is that correct?
CORNWELL - Do you think it might have been Azcue?
TIRADO - Could be.
CORNWELL - Is that when you learned about his conversations with Fidel?
TIRADO - Yes.Sylvia Tirado
CORNWELL - During that period of time, when you spoke to Azcue two or three years later, what if anything did he have to say about the assassination?
TIRADO - What did he say?
TIRADO - I don't know.
CORNWELL - When you believed you may have talked to him. Did he have any theories or speculation?
TIRADO - I don't remember. I only remember the part that they were talking about me.
CORNWELL - Did he believe as strongly as you apparently do that the person who was on television and in the newspapers was the same man who went into the Consulate?
TIRADO - Yes. I don't know about television because he was not here.
CORNWELL - He was not on television here?
TIRADO - No, no. Azcue was not here.
CORNWELL - I know, but I mean when you talked to him two or three years later. Did he say anything about that?
TIRADO - No. I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Do you think for sure that the man who was on television was the man who came to the Consulate?
CORNWELL - The man who was killed by Jack Ruby?
TIRADO - Yes.Sylvia Tirado
CORNWELL - Did you see him being killed by Ruby on television?
TIRADO - Yes, yes.
CORNWELL - Was there anything about him that looked different to you?
TIRADO - No. It was black and white. So I couldn't see the color. But he looks like the one that I met.
CORNWELL - Guess that's all the questions and thank you again for being so patient with us and answering all of our endless questions.
LOPEZ - It is 9:15 p.m.