Deposition before the House Select Committee an Assassinations.

Federal Building
1100 Commerce Street
Room 4B40
Dallas, Texas
Tuesday, July 11, 1978
10:45 a.m.
JAMES E. MCDONALD, Senior Counsel
Select Committee on Assassinations
Washington, D.C. 20515
161 North Exchange Park
Dallas, Texas
A. LBERT MAXWELL, Committee Investigator
Select Committee on Assassinations
Washington, D.C. 20515
Oath Administered by
BOBBIE GASKILL, Courtroom Deputy for
U.S. District Judge
W.M. Taylor, Jr.
J. R. TODD was duly sworn and testified as follows:

MR. MCDONALD: Good morning. My name is James McDonald.
MR. BIESEL: Mr. M?Donald, I am Jerry Biesel. On the record, I would like to say that it is now"-
MR. MCDONALD: Excuse me, Mr. Biesel, just let me get through some preliminaries. MR. BIESEL: Okay. Then I want to put all this on the record.
MCDONALD: All right. My name is James McDonald. We are present in the Federal Courthouse in Dallas, Texas, to take the Deposition of James Robert Todd. Present this morning are Mr. Todd and his attorney Jerry Biesel. I have been designated pursuant to House Resolution. 222 and Committee Rule Four as a designated counsel and power to take statements under path, and the witness has been previously sworn by Bobbie Gaskill, the Courtroom Deputy for U.S. District Court Judge William Inglor, Jr.
MR. BIESEL: I think you have got that wrong, there is no such Judge. William Taylor.
MR. BIESEL: William Taylor, Jr.
MR. MCDONALD: Thank you.
MR. BIESEL: I am Jerry Biesel. I am Mr. Todd's attorney, and I would like the record to reflect that it is now 11:40, I mean, 10:48, that this Deposition! was set at approximately 9:30, and at approximately twenty minutes to ten, Mr. Todd appeared on the scene with his attorney, and that we have spent the better part of the last hour and ten minutes attempting to get Mr. Todd sworn.
Mr. Todd and myself, along with the Court Reporter, went to the Federal Court's own fifteen, trying to find a Court Reporter, none were available, and then we went to the U.S. Magistrate, Judge Malloy, to his office, to ask him to swear this witness. Judge Malloy -- We talked to the clerk for Judge Malloy, who then went into Judge Malloy's office and several minutes later, Judge Malloy came to the clerk's desk and told us that he would refuse to swear the witness or any subsequent witnesses, and that they had decided without saying who they are that they would not get involved in this situation.
MR. MCDONALD: Mr. Biesel, we appreciate your comment, and this committee regrets the attitude demonstrated by the U.S. Magistrates here in this District and we regret the inconvenience to you and your client as well as to this Court Reporter and myself, because we also have things to do. And we don't like running around courthouses to get witnesses sworn. And we wish the Magistrate in this District would show a little more courtesy to the Congress of the United States. And it's a situation that we regret as much as you do.


Q. Mr. Todd, would you please state for the record your full name?
A. J.R. Todd.
Q. And your current address?
A. 6116 North Central Expressway, Dallas, Texas.
Q. And is that your home or business?
A. That's my business.
Q. Okay. Would you please give us your home address?
A. I don't care about giving my home address.
Q. I'm sorry.
A. Why do I have to give my home address?
Q. Just for the complete record.
A. The 6116 will reach me anytime.
Q. All right. And what is the name of the business that you occupy at that address?
A. Todd Oil Company.
Q. Okay. And the phone number there is?
A. 369-6585.
Q. Area code 214?
A. Correct.
Q. Mr. Todd, the statement that you are about to give to us this morning is being given to us voluntarily; is that correct?
A. As far as I am concerned it is voluntary, yeah.
Q. In other words, you're not under subpoena at this time?
A. That's correct.
Q. . Okay. As you know, you do have the right to have your attorney present, which he is sitting to your right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you and your counsel have been given a copy of Committee Rules and House Resolution,-222, 433 and 760, and you have both had a chance to peruse them; is that correct?
A. We looked at Rule Four, but I don't know about 760.
Q. Well, this is the blue packet that I passed out. And I directed your attention to Rule Four; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And which your counsel read aloud to you a few minutes ago?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Todd, as you note, the entire Deposition is being recorded, and when we have a transcript we will forward a copy to you and -- Well, to you and your attorney to check it for typographical and grammatical errors.
A. All right.
Q. That will be done in the near future. Okay. Mr. Todd, what is the nature of your business Todd Oil Company?
A. I drill wells and operate wells.
Q. Uh-huh. And how many employees do you have?
A. I only have one employee.
Q. Okay. Is it also known as Todd Investment Company?
A. J.R. Todd Oil and investment Company I is another separate entity.
Q. Okay. And would you please describe that for us?
A. Well, I drill wells and operate wells under that name.
Q. Okay. And how many employees do you have under that company?
A. Just one.
Q. Okay. Do you contract out?
A. Contract everything out.
Q. I see. Okay. And how long have you had this business?
A. Since back in the 40's.
Q. And has it been at the same address?
A. No, at one time I was at 1022 National Bankers Life Building.
Q. Here in Dallas?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Do you have any partners in this -- Do you have partners in these businesses?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are the sole proprietor?
A. My children and myself are, yes.
Q. And who are your children?
A. What does that got to do with this?
Q. Well, we're trying to get just a background and identifying information just for our complete understanding of"-
A. My oil company doesn't have anything to do with what we
A. re talking about.
Q. Well, it would just be helpful for us to know"-
MR. BIESEL: Counsel, I think this goes outside the purview of this investigation, and Mr. Todd doesn't feel like, you know, getting into his private life. He's volunteered to give any information he might have that would be relevant to this investigation, but
A. s to his private life he doesn't feel like any investigation of his private life is warranted.
MR. MCDONALD: All right. Well, we are not investigating his private life, but I will respect his wishes at this point.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Your answer then to the question was that your children occupy some place of responsibility in your company, either partners or"-
A. Ownership.
Q. Ownership. Okay. And just a couple of more personal
Q. uestions, if I might. What's your date of birth?
A. December the tenth.
Q. Yes, what year?
A. 1919.
Q. Okay. And where were you born?
A. Groesbeck, Texas.
Q. And you are presently married?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is your wife's name?
A. Ann.
Q. Ann. Okay. Mr. Todd, as you know, you have voluntarily come here this morning to assist this committee in its investigation of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. and in that regard, we are going to be asking you some
Q. uestions that pertain to an individual by the name of Jack Ruby. One further identifying bit of information. Are you the same Jack Todd', James Robert Todd, that was interviewed by the F.B.I. in 1963 shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy?
A. No, sir.
Q. You are not the same one?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you ever interviewed by the F.B.I. after the
A. ssassination?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Not to your knowledge or not -- Did you ever live at 2438 Oats Drive?
A. I sure did.
Q. Okay. And you don't recall being interviewed?
A. NO, sir.
Q. How good is your memory?
A. Fairly good.
Q. All right. You don't recall being interviewed on
A. pproximately December sixteenth, 1963, by Agent Tom E. Chapoton, C-H-A-P-O-T-O-N?
A. In regards to what?
Q. In regards to Jack Ruby and the assassination of John F. Kennedy?
A. I don't remember, no.
Q. I will say this, we have a record that you were interview( on that day.
A. I have"-
Q. You don't recall?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay.
MR. BIESEL: Now, as Mr. Todd's attorney, if you have a copy of that record here, 1 would like see it in order to have my client refresh his memory, because that's fifteen years ago, you know.
MR. MCDONALD: I understand. I am not liberty to give you a copy of it because it's part of the under documents that are not subject to disclosure pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act. It's still under an exception in the National Archives, but
A. ccording to the document that I am reading, it'5 an F.B.I. 302. I don't know if you are familiar with that term, it's an interview form of the F.B.I. You were interviewed on December' sixteenth, 1963, in DaLlas, the person interviewed was James Robert Todd at 2438 Oats Drive, Dallas, regarding a notation that was found in Jack Ruby's car that said, "Jack," and then a phone number, "DA8-26-35," which was your phone number at the time, that's how they came to you?
A. No, that wasn't my number.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Let me just say this: This was the phone number and they at that time, fifteen years ago, traced it to you, and that's how the F.B.I. came to interview you?
A. Well, if he came to interview me, I don't remember it. and that telephone number is almost it, but that wasn't the right number.
Q. Was your number at that time?
A. Davis 8-2634. As best I recall it, it was Davis 8-2634.
Q. Okay. Well"-
A. 35 could have been something to Jack, I have no idea.
Q. Mr. Todd, at that time, fifteen years ago, this is the number they found and they traced it to you, and you were interviewed?
A. I don't remember. MR. MCDONALD: You can make a note also present during this Deposition is Committee Investigator
A. lbert Maxwell. Mr. Maxwell, we are in the process of trying to refresh Mr. Todd's memory. I am locking at an F.B.I. 302, you may help us, you have interviewed Mr. Todd before; is that correct?
MR. MAXWELL: Yes, uh-huh.
MR. MCDONALD: According to the interview, Mr. Todd was interviewed back in December Of 1963, and he was located because a number was found in Jack Ruby's car with the notation, "Jack, DA8-2635," and that's how the F.B.I. ultimately ended up talking to Mr. Todd. You're aware of those facts?
MR. MCDONALD: Okay. Mr. Todd is having a problem remembering it.
THE WITNESS: I don't .. MR. BIESEL: Let me ask you a question, Counselor, let me interrupt you. You talk about these facts as if they're, you know, true. It's my understanding, though, that the only thing you have is no personal knowledge, you are looking at some report that purports to say that these facts are true, so let the record reflect that these statements that these are facts, that's just a supposition on your part, and you keep referring to these facts, those are just some facts that are reported on an instrument that you have that someone else quoted.
MR. MCDONALD: Let me say this: I started this whole line of questioning out merely as an identifying bit of information which Mr. Todd now has forgotten.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) You don't recall ever being talked to by the F.B.I. after the assassination of President Kennedy? To my knowledge, this is the first time I have ever been
A. sked anything about it.
Q. Have you ever been talked to before, excluding Mr. Maxwell, regarding Jack Ruby by any official of the Federal Government?
A. I don't recall it, no.
Q. You don't recall. So, what you are saying is then after the -- You don't recall, or you were or you weren't, yes or no?
A. I don't recall.
MR. BIESEL: He says he doesn't recall it. His memory says that he was not, but, you know, it's fifteen years ago again, and, you know, it didn't have any significance if he was, I assume, is that true, Mr. Todd?
THE WITNESS: I don't recall anybody ever asking me about Jack Ruby.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) I am just saying that we deal with a lot of people involved with this case---
A. Yes.
Q. ---and I would say that 1 find it hard to believe that you don't remember that within two weeks after the assassination that an F.B.I. Agent -- I Can believe you might not remember the substance, but that an F.B.I. Agent came either to your business or home and interviewed you regarding Jack Ruby, the assassin of the assassin of the President?
MR. BIESEL: You see, Counsel, that's because you're assuming that that report is accurate.
MR. MCDONALD: Yes, I am assuming that it's accurate.
MR. BIESEL' Okay. Then let's assume this witness is under oath and just testified that he does not recall that, and does not believe that occurred, and let's assume that"-
MR. MCDONALD: I am assuming he's being evasive.
MR. BIESEL: Yes, you are assuming he's being evasive, and he's not being evasive. He's being as candid with you as he could possibly be, because it has no significance. What possible significance"-
MR. MCDONALD: That's for us to determine and not for Mr. Todd to determine. I wanted to just identify him as the same Mr. Todd, and we have reason to believe that we know that he is the same Mr. Todd that was interviewed by"-
MR. BIESEL: You do hot know that.
MR. MCDONALD: Yes, we do, Mr. Biesel.
MR. BIESEL: You don't know that at all. You have got a report that you're referring to there. He is Mr. Todd, and he lived on Oats Drive, he will admit that, but he does not recall a meeting with an F.B.I.
A. gent concerning the Ruby assassination of Oswald.
MR. MCDONALD: Okay. You made your point.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Mr. Todd, have you ever heard of the Lois Green gang?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you give us -- How do you know about the Lois Green gang?
A. The terminology, "gang", is just something that was dreamed up by a bunch of folks.
Q. Okay.
A. Lois Green was my personal friend.
Q. Uh-huh. When did you first meet Mr. Green?
A. About ' 39.
Q. 1939?
A. Yes.
Q. And you're saying the term, "gang", doesn't fit?
A. (shakes head)
Q. How would you describe Lois Green? Am I pronouncing it correct?
A. Right, correct.
Q. And we will call them associates or whatever. How would you describe the group?
A. Just a bunch of guys.
Q. A bunch of guys? A bunch of guys doing what?
A. Just like us sitting right here, a bunch of guys.
Q. Uh-huh. W"no were they? Do you recall any of the people that were members of this group?
A. You have reference to a gang, but see, no gang . . . it has never been established in my mind as a gang. There's a bunch of fellows that were friends, and what relation one of them made to the other, I have no knowledge of that.
Q. I think they're called a gang and they're considered by, I would say, law enforcement as a gang, as a group of individuals that were operating either in or on the fringes of the criminal element in Dallas in 1939 or whenever during the years in question. Do you recall who were part of this group? what people were involved?
A. If you tell me their names, I might know them, but I don't know who they were.
Q. Well---
A. I might know a lot of individuals, but whether they were a member of the gang, I never did see their badge.
Q. Did you know an individual by the name of Benny Binion, B-I-N-I-O-N?
A. I know the name, yes, sir.
Q. How do you know the name?
A. You can pick up the newspaper and see that, but I know him as a person casually.
Q. Uh-huh. When did you first meet him?
A. Probably back in the '40's.
Q. And what did you read about him in the newspapers?
A. Occasionally, you pick up tie newspaper and read something, I don't recall what you read.
Q. Uh-huh. Well, generally speaking, what kind of news reports were being written about him?
A. That he was going to Vegas.
Q. They would print that in the newspaper, someone travelling to Vegas?
A. I don't recall. You would have to look at the print to see what was in there. I don't recall what was printed in 1940.
Q. So, in other words, he was known as a gambler?
A. Yes.
Q. And he was written up in various newspaper articles?
A. I don't know that to be a fact, but I would think that would be the assumption.
Q. Okay. Do you know an individual by the name of Joe Campisi?
A. I know Joe Campisi.
Q. When did you first meet him?
A. Probably in the ' 40 ' s.
Q. Okay. How about his brother Sam?
A. I knew his brother, Sam.
Q. Okay. And how did you come to meet them?
A. Their daddy had a restaurant, and it later turned into a club, and it was a place where everybody went.
Q. Uh-huh. And what was the nature of your relationship with the Campisi' s7
A. Just go there and eat.
Q. With them?
A. Not necessarily. I would go in there, you know, like any other restaurant. He was the owner, and I would go in there and sit down and eat.
Q. What was the name of the restaurant?
A. I don't recall. They had one over on Central years ago, and they had one over on Knox Street, and then they have got the one they have got now.
Q. Which is the one they have now?
A. I believe, it's called The Egyptian.
Q. And do you recall -- And which street is the Egyptian on?
A. I believe, it's on Mockingbird.
Q. How about Joe Civello, Joseph Civello?
A. I met Joe Civello, yes, very casually.
Q. And where?
A. I don't have any idea.
Q. When did you meet him?
A. Probably in the '40's.
Q. And you're saying that your relationship with him was casual?
A. Very casual.
Q. What do you mean by, "very casual"?
A. Like I met Mr. Maxwell. here, I would know him again if I saw him again. I would know he's Mr. Maxwell, that would be casual.
Q. Okay. How about Johnny Grizzaffi, G-R-I-Z-Z-A-F-F-I?
A. Yeah, I know Johnny.
Q. How do you know him?
A. Very casual.
Q. What do you mean by, "very casual"?
A. I'd know him if he walked in this room.
Q. Okay. When is the last time you saw him?
A. Probably ten, twelve, fifteen years age.
Q. Is he alive today?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Did you have any business relationship with him?
A. NO.
Q. Joe Ianni?
A. Yeah, I knew Joe.
Q. I-A-N-N-S?
A. Yeah, I know Joe.
Q. And what's your relationship with him?
A. He had a restaurant and I would go in there and eat.
Q. What was the name of his restaurant?
A. Iann's.
Q. Isn't he related to you by marriage?
A. Pardon?
Q. Is he related to you by marriage?
A. No, my son is married to his daughter.
Q. Okay. That's correct. Are these individuals that we have just named, are they considered -- have they been termed in the press and by law enforcement circles as "Organized Crime", in the Dallas area?
A. I wouldn't have any idea.
Q. You have never seen that? When you spoke of reading
A. bout Benny Binion in the newspaper, have you seen it in that context?
MR. BIESEL: Counsel, I think that's too vague a question for my client to be supposing about how these people have been characterized by newspaper accounts.
MR. MCDONALD: Well, I'm asking if he's
A. ware.
MR. BIESEL: I don't think that's a proper
Q. uestion because, you know, he might read it, he might give it some credence, might be a New York City nut, I don't think that's a proper question, and I will instruct him not to answer that question.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Mr. Todd, in this committee's inquiry into Jack Ruby, and as you know, the reason why you have been asked to come here this morning is because we feel you can help us and give us some insight into Jack Ruby, the person. In part of our overall investigation, not only this committee, but other people who have been looking at the Kennedy assassination have looked at Jack Ruby, one of the areas that they have focused on, was what is called or has been termed, "The Organized Crime" move into Dallas in'47 and '48, in the various writings of the people that have reviewed the Kennedy assassination and have written in books that you can buy in a bookstore, this is an area that they talk about, "The Organized Crime" move into Dallas, Texas, in '46 and '47. So, we're hoping that perhaps you can give us some information in that area. Namely, do you know a person by the name of Paul Roland Jones?
A. I did at one time.
Q. Okay. When did you meet him?
A. Back in the '40's.
Q. Oh-huh. Do you know specifically when in the '40's?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Well, would it have been in '46, '47 area?
A. It could have been. I am not for sure.
Q. And what was the nature of your relationship with him?
MR. BIESEL: Let me interrupt you a minute. Counsel. We are going back in some fifteen years prior to Kennedy's assassination, at the time Kennedy was a teenager, a long time prior to Ruby ever being in Dallas,
A. s far as I know.
MR. MCDONALD: Ruby was in Dallas at that time in '46-'47.
MR. BIESEL: Well, I appreciate it, and I want you to ask any questions that you feel is relevant, but if we could tie it a little closer to Mr. Ruby, you know, I want this tied down to Mr. Ruby.
MR. MCDONALD: I understand.
MR. BIESEL: This is getting far afield talking about '46 and '47, because we haven't even indicated at that time that Mr. Todd was acquainted with Mr. Ruby.
MR. MCDONALD: I appreciate your comments, and we will be tying it into Ruby. This is a background
A. rea that we have to cover regarding Mr. Ruby. He was present in Dallas, Ruby was, at this time, and as I tried to give you in my preface remarks that this is the reason for these questions dealing in a time span fifteen years prior to the assassination.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) So, Mr. Todd, I ask you, what was the nature of your relationship with Paul Roland Jones?
A. No relationship with him at all.
Q. You knew him?
A. Yeah.
Q. How did you know him?
A. Somebody introduced me to him.
Q. And how often did you have an occasion to socially or whatever meet with him?
A. It was so vague, I wouldn't remember, probably three times or four times forever.
Q. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Paul Roland Jones?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay. How about an individual by the name of Paul Labriola, also known as -- He had a nickname of Needle Nose, do you know him?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Well, have you ever heard of the person?
A. I think he asked me one time if I knew him, but I don't know him.
Q. You don't?
A. I wouldn't know him if he walked in the door.
Q. You would not? Okay. Danny Lardino?
A. No, sir.
Q. You don't know him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever heard of the name?
A. No, sir.
Q. Marcus Lipsky?
A. No.
Q. L-I-P-S-K-Y. James Weinberg?
A. No.
Q. You're saying no, you never heard of them? You do know them or you have never heard of them?
A. I have never heard of them,
Q. Never heard of them, which means you don't know them?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Pat Manning or Pat Manno, M-A-N-N-O?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Well, in other words"-
A. That name doesn't do nothing for me.
Q. Jack Knapp, also known as Romeo Natti?
A. That name seems familiar, but I don't know. I have no idea.
Q. How about George Butler?
A. I know George.
Q. How do you know George?
A. He's a policeman here.
Q. A policeman here in Dallas? And how did you come to know him?
A. I don't know.
Q. Pardon?
A. I have no idea how I come to know him.
Q. You don't remember the first time you met him?
A. No, sir.
Q. How many times did you have contact with him?
A. I wouldn't have any idea.
Q. Uh-huh. What was the nature of your contact with him?
A. I have no idea what that would be. He was a policeman, he was probably doing his job.
Q. Is it possible that Butler was one of the -- You have a number of arrests during that time period, '41 through '54, could it -- Is it possible that Butler was one of the arresting officers on any one of the arrests that you had during that time span?
A. In probability, it could be. I have no idea. If they arrest you, they arrest you, I don't take their numbers and badges.
Q. Do you know whether -- To your knowledge, do you know if Jack Ruby knew George Butler or had any dealings with him?
A. I wouldn't have any way of knowing it.
Q. Okay. How about Steve Guthrie?
A. Steve Guthrie was a Sheriff here.
Q. Did you know him?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know him personally as opposed to knowing who he was because he was the Sheriff? In other words, did you have personal contacts with him?
A. Just when he arrested me, that's all the contacts I ever had.
Q. Did he personally arrest you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he arrest you for?
A. Probably vagrancy.
Q. Can you recall what year?
A. Whenever he was elected Sheriff, I don't know what year he was elected.
Q. Okay. Do you know if Ruby, Jack Ruby, had any involvement with Steve Guthrie?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay. Mr. Todd, do you know an individual by the name of James Henry Dolan ?
A. I met Jim Dolan , yes.
Q. When did you first meet Jim Dolan.?
A. Probably in the ' 50 ' s.
Q. Okay. And what was the nature of your meeting with him?
A. No nature, somebody introduced me.
Q. At a restaurant?
A. I have no idea of whether it was at a restaurant.
Q. Could we say -- To your knowledge, was Dolan, associated with Lois Green?
A. I wouldn't have any way of knowing.
Q. Why wouldn't you have any way of knowing?
A. I never asked Lois if he. knew him.
Q. Well, do you know if he was in fact, whether Lois told you or not, did you know that or did you have any inkling that Dolan. was part of that group?
A. I wouldn't have any way of knowing.
Q. Well, so your answer then is you did not know or he was?
A. I don ' t know.
Q. How well did you know Dolan ?
A. Very very casual.
Q. And what do you mean by, 'very very casual"?
A. I probably in my lifetime have ever seen him over four times or five.
Q. And what would be the circumstances when you saw him four or five times? Would it be---
A. Pass him on the street.
Q. Did you ever have any lengthy conversations with him?
A. It's according to how you classify lengthy. "How are you?" "How have you been?" "How's everything?" "Good to see
Q. Uh-huh. And that's it?
A. (nods head)
Q. Did you know what Dolan, did when he lived in Dallas?
A. I never asked him.
Q. Are you familiar with a place called Sue's Car Lot?
A. Sue's?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. 'What is Sue's Car Lot? What is it and where is it?
A. Sue's Car Lot doesn't exist any more.
Q. Okay. When did it exist?
A. Oh, back in the '40's, I guess.
Q. And was Sue's Used Car Lot as the name would suggest, a used car lot?
A. Pardon me?
Q. In other words, what was Sue *s Car Lot?
A. Sue's Car Lot was a car lot.
Q. That's what I asked, but it didn't come out that way. And where was that located?
A. Over on Live Oak Street.
Q. In Dallas?
A. Yes.
Q. How often did you go to Sue's Used Car Lot?
A. I worked there.
Q. You worked there? As what?
A. As a salesman.
Q. How long did you work there?
A. I don't know. Probably two years. A year and a half.
Q. Do you recall what years?
A. No.
Q. Well, was it early '40's, during the war, after the war?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Well, did it do a pretty good business?
A. Yeah, I would say they did a fair business, yes.
Q. Okay. Let's see if we can pin the time down. During World War II, were you in the Service?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall whether you worked there in the early '40's during World War Ii?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Well, do you remember what you did during the early '40's? Do you remember what you did during the war?
A. I worked at North American.
Q. North American?
A. Aviation.
Q. During the entire war years?
A. I was working there in '41 when the war broke out.
Q. And how long did you work there?
A. Quite awhile.
Q. Two, three years?
A. Could have been.
Q. Okay.
MR. BIESEL: Let me interrupt you just a minute, Counsel, in order to make this a little more definitive, if I might. Mr. Todd, while you were at Sue's Used Car Lot, were you working under the name J.R. Todd ?
MR. BIESEL: And did you have Social Security and withholding taxes?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
MR. BIESEL: Are those still available to the government, if they wanted?
MR. McDONALD: Well, I can answer that question, no, they are not. Social Security doesn't keep those kind of records, and I am just trying to pin it down as far as years. I'm not trying to get the exact dates, but I think, it's reasonable to think that we can perhaps just work our way to figure whether it was during -- if it was not during World War IT, we know it's between '45 and '50. Would that be a reasonable time frame to be talking about?
A. (The Witness) It could have been, but I am not stating. I don't recall. You know, my guess would be as good as yours.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. During the time you worked at Sue's Car Lot, did Jack Ruby ever come there?
A. If he did, I never saw him.
Q. Well, did you know him? Did you know Jack Ruby in 1946, 1947?
A. In all probability, I did, yes.
Q. Do you recall him coming to Sue's Car Lot?
A. I don't ever recall him coming to Sue's Car Lot.
Q. Did any other individuals come to the car lot?coming.
A. We was in business, there was a lot of people
Q. Do you recall whether Ruby used to come there on a regular basis, not just once or twice?
A. I just told you I never saw him there in my life.
Q. Uh-huh. Okay. Mr. Todd, do you know an individual by the name of John Eli Stone?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. How do you know him?
A. Like you know Maxwell.
Q. Uh-huh. In other words, you know him casually?
A. Yes.
Q. That's not like I know Maxwell, but like you know Maxwell?
A. Yeah.
Q. And how long have you known him?
A. Since in the '40's.
Q. Okay. Do you still know him?
A. I'd know if he walked in the door.
Q. When's the last time you saw him?
A. Probably a year or so ago.
Q. Okay. Is he still engaged in bookmaking, do you know?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay. How about James Woodrow Stone, Jim Stone?
A. Who?
Q. Stone, Jim Stone?
A. You've lost me there.
Q. Okay. Albert Meadows?
A. Al Meadows?
Q. Yeah.
A. Yeah, I know him.
Q. How long have you known him?
A. Since in the '40's.
Q. Do you still know him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He is still alive?
A. As far as I know.
Q. When was the last time you saw him?
A. Probably four, five months ago, six.
Q. Pardon?
A. About four, five, six months ago.
Q. Okay. What business is he in? Is he a bookmaker?
A. I don't think so, but I never asked him.
Q. Okay. How about the fellow I mentioned first, Stone? Stone is known as a bookmaker?
MR. BIESEL: I don't think it's proper for Mr. Todd to characterize these people as bookmakers or whatever, that's for the newspaper reporters and writers to characterize. I don't think it's proper for Mr. Todd to characterize anybody as a bookmaker or"-
MR. MCDONALD: Well, okay. That's true.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) But do you know them as -- these individuals as making book or involved in---
A. I don't know them like that either.
Q. Okay. Did Jack Ruby have any association with these individuals that we just mentioned?
A. I wouldn't have any idea.
Q. In other words, you were never present with any of these individuals?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Well, I understand what you're saying when you say not to your knowledge, but---
A. I want you to understand that because, you know, if I saw Jack Ruby, I don't pay no attention if somebody's standing there next to him. Everybody on the street would know him from one end of Commerce Street to the other, but, I mean---
Q. when did you first meet Jack Ruby?
A. Best I remember it was over On Ervey Street, whenever he had the Silver Spur or whatever that place is called.
Q. when did you meet him?
A. Whenever the record will show that he had the Silver Spur, I don't know.
Q. That would be early 1950?
A. I don ' t know.
Q. Well, would it be safe to assume that you first met Ruby sometime during, we'll say, the early '50's, late '40's? Have you known him that long?
A. Whenever they had 3.2 beer here, that's all I know.
Q. When was that?
A. I don't know. If I knew that, I would know what year it was.
Q. Do you recall where you first met him?
A. I believe, the first time I ever met him was when he had the Silver Spur.
Q. Did he own a place called the Vegas Club?
A. I heard rumors that he did, but I don't know that to be
Q. Okay. How did you come to meet him at the Silver Spur?
A. I would go in there like everybody else would.
Q. Uh-huh. Did you get to know him well?
A. No, sir.
Q. How often would you have contact with him?
A. If I went in the Silver Spur, I would see him and speak to him, if you call that contact.
Q. Did you ever back in the, we'll say, the early 50's, do. you recall a restaurant called the B & B on Oaklawn Street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you used to frequent that?
A. On occasions, yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember whether the Vegas Club was in the vicinity of the B & B restaurant?
A. About three doors down.
Q. Do you recall ever meeting Ruby in the Vegas Club?
A. Meeting him In the Vegas Club?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. If I went in the Vegas Club, and he was there, he would say, "Hello," that's about it. I never went there specifically to meet him, no.
Q. Did you ever go to the Carousel Club when Ruby owned the Carousel Club?
A. Where was the Carousel Club?
MR. MCDONALD: A1, where was it?
MR. MAXWELL: On Commerce.
MR. MAXWELL: Across from the Adolphus Hotel.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have been in the Carousel.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) And did you see Ruby when you would frequent the Carousel?
A. I didn't ever say that I frequented it. I said I have been in the Carousel Club, and I have probably been in there three times in my life.
Q. Uh-huh. How about the Singapore Club?
A. Where was that?
MR. MAXWELL: I don ' t know.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Somewhere in downtown Dallas? A I don't recall it.
Q. Okay. Well, during the years that you knew Ruby, prior .. to 1963, how would you describe your relationship with
A. To straighten the record out, I never said that I knew Ruby other than just by if he walked down the street, I would recognize him as Jack Ruby, and if he walked in that door, I would recognize him as Jack Ruby, and that's it.
Q. You're testifying that you never had any conversations with him beyond a casual---
A. Beyond a casual conversation, correct.
Q. What we're trying to determine is why -- and I know we have started out the Deposition with the discussion, but the phone number of the name Jack that was found on a slip of paper in Ruby's car, it was your number, and so, the
Q. uestion is: Why would Jack Ruby have your name and number on a piece of paper in his car?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Okay. You can think of no reason?
A. No reason whatsoever.
Q. Did he ever call you? Did Ruby ever telephone you?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Well, do you remember that he did?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. But it's possible that he could have, you just don' t remember?
A. It's possible.
MR. BIESEL: That question, Counselor, "Is it possible, Mr. Ruby," anything is possible. Mr. Todd would have no way of knowing. Mr. Todd would only know whether or not he talked to Mr. Ruby.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. And you don't recall talking to Mr. Ruby over the telephone?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you can give us no reason why that slip of paper was found in Ruby ' s car?
A. No, sir.
Q. And your testimony is that your relationship with Ruby was merely a casual hello?
A. That's right.
Q. Okay. Did you know any of Ruby's relatives, his brother, Sam, Sam Ruby?
A. Seemed like he was pointed out, but I don't think I ever met him.
Q. How about Earl Ruby?
A. Who ?
Q. Earl, his brother, Earl Ruby?
A. I don ' t know.
Q. Eva Grant?
A. Eva Grant, if it's the one I am thinking of, used to take tickets at the club, but I don't know.
Q. At what club?
A. The one out there on Oaklawn.
Q. The Vegas Club?
A. Yeah.
Q. Eva Grant would---
A. I think that's true, yeah.
Q. I'm going to ask you these questions. Did you have any knowledge during 1959 that Jack Ruby took a trip to Cuba?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. In other words, what you ' re saying is, you don ' t know?
A. I wouldn't have any way of knowing.
Q. Do you know whether Jack Ruby was involved in the numbers
A. I wouldn't have any way of knowing.
Q. Is there anyone that you think would know the answers to some of the questions I am asking you?
A. No.
Q. In other words, any of your friends? Did you have at that time any friends who knew Ruby better than you did?
A. Well, if they knew him at all, they would know him better than me.
Q. Did you know an individual by the name of Ralph Paul?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. In other words, you don't remember him, if you did know him?
A. That's right.
Q. How about George Senator?
A. I know George Senator.
Q. How do you know him?
A. I bought some clothes from him.
Q. Uh-huh. When is the last time you bought some clothes from him?
A. A year or two.
Q. Uh-huh. How did George Senator come to sell you some clothes? I understand he sells clothes out of the back of his car?
A. Correct.
Q. And how did you come to be in contact with him?
A. Just probably sitting down and he came in with some clothes, and I bought them.
Q. I see. Can you recall where you were?
A. Not right offhand, no.
Q. When is the last time you saw him?
A. Oh, probably four to six months ago.
Q. Can you recall where you saw him?
A. Greenville Avenue.
Q. Greenville Avenue here in Dallas?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. At a specific spot, a restaurant or a bar or what?
A. At a parking lot.
Q. was he setting up shop, so to speak?
A. He was getting in his car.
Q. Getting in his car. How about R.D. Matthews ?
A. I know R.D.
Q. How do you know him?
A. Casual.
Q. when was the first time you met R.D. Mathews?
A. Seems like it was right after the war.
Q. What kind of business was Mathews in?
A. I never asked him.
Q. When you say, "casual", what do you mean by that?
A. Just casual, how would you describe casual?
Q. Well, I'm asking you.
A. I'm trying to get you to give roe a little assistance here in describing it.
Q. How about Lewis McWillie?
A. Lewis. McWillie?
Q. Yes.
A. I know Lewis McWillie.
Q. What's the nature of your relationship with him?
A. Very casual.
Q. Okay. And when's the last time you saw Mr. McWillie?
A. Probably fifteen years ago, eighteen.
Q. How about Joe Bons?
A. Yeah, I know Joe.
Q. Casual relationship?
A. Very very casual.
Q. When's the last time you saw him?
A. Probably '49.
Q. Uh-huh. How about Lennie Patrick?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Does the name sound familiar?
A. No.
Q. Dave Yaras, Sam Yaras, Y-A-R-A-S?
A. No.
Q. How about Johnny Patrono?
A. Yeah, I know Johnny.
Q. How did you know him?
A. Just kind of casual.
Q. Uh-huh. where would you see him?
A. See him at the Iann's restaurant or Joe's restaurant.
Q. Would you ever sit down and speak with him?
A. Lots of times.
Q. what kind of conversation? What would you talk about?
A. Whether he was losing weight or gaining weight, or how he was feeling.
Q. To your knowledge, during the '60's and '50's, do you know whether it be by hearsay or direct personal knowledge,, or whatever, rumor, scuttlebutt, whether Jack Ruby was an informant for the Dallas Police Department?
A. I wouldn't have any way of knowing.
Q. Well, I think you might have had, you know, just general talk among the bar talk and stuff like that, just loose conversation, but had that ever come up to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge,
Q. I mean, I think, you would have had relationships that that might have come out in conversation?
A. Not necessarily
Q. Okay. In an interview with Mr. Maxwell, you mentioned that you had met Morgan Brown, I assume, you know Mr. Brown, Mr. Morgan Brown?
A. They asked me if I knew Morgan Brown, I told them I had met one casually, that's what I told you, it was in the oil business, and they said that was the one in the same.
Q. Uh-huh. And when was this? When did you meet him?
A. Oh, back some time Ago. I don't recall exactly. I mean---
Q. Well, how much is "some time"? Six months?
A. Probably six months, a year.
Q. Uh-huh. And where did you meet him?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Well, was it here in Dallas?
A. Yeah.
Q. And what kind of meeting did you have with him?
A. "Jack, this is Morgan Brown. Hello." That's it.
Q. Who introduced you?
A. He asked me the same question, I couldn't remember who it was.
Q. Was it in a bar, restaurant or office?
MR. BIESEL: Counsel, again, now, we're talking about what happened here six months ago. And
A. gain, we have been talking about things that have been fifteen years before the assassination. Now, we're talking
A. bout things that happened fifteen years after. I see very little relevance to the investigation-
MR. MCDONALD: Well, Counsel, it is relevant. I'm not trying to take up your time or Mr. Todd's time.
MR. BIESEL: Well, we don't have the information, of course, that you have available to you, and so, therefore, things that appear not to be relevant to us---
MR. MCDONALD: Let me assure you, I wouldn't be sitting here asking a question, if I didn't think it was relevant to our inquiry. And we are almost completed
MR. BIESEL: All right.
MR. MCDONALD: So, if you will bear with me.
Q. (Mr. McDonald) We're getting back to Mr. Brown, Morgan Brown.
A. It was so casual I don't recall if I told him.
Q. And did you have -- What kind of conversation did you have with him?
A. What do you normally say when you meet somebody?
Q. You didn't talk about oil business or anything?
A. Well, he was informed about the oil business, and I was informed he was in the oil business, so"-
Q. One final question, which I asked you before, but it's something that we're trying to get an understanding that is again: Why, to your knowledge, would Jack Ruby have your name and phone number on a piece of paper in his car?
A. I would have no way of knowing.
Q. In 1963?
MR. MCDONALD: Okay. I have no further
Q. uestions.
MR. BIESEL: I have some questions I want to put on the record.

Q. Mr. Todd, we have been questioning this-morning, we have gone from 1940's to the 1970's in regard to who you know in Dallas County, Texas. Let me ask you, during the period of time that you knew Mr. Ruby, was he ever a guest in your home or you a guest in his?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever know Mr. Ruby to have any activities other than just a club owner, an operator?
A. That's all I ever heard of him do.
Q. . Did you have any business association with him at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Other than just a casual greeting on the street or seeing him in his clubs, did you have any contact with him at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. They characterize what they call the Lois Green gang, were you aware that there was any organization or association actual of that in nature?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, did Sue's Used Cars that they talk about, was this any kind of notorious hangout or anything like that? Was this a little car lot run by a woman on Live Oak Street?
A. As far as I know, that's what it was.
Q. Well, you do know, don't you?
A. I do.
Q. You sold cars there?
A. That ' s right.
Q. All right. They have gone through and asked you a bunch of names of people who you know, I guess, would you say you meet many people in your business?
A. Quite a few.
Q. Would it be possible for you to meet someone fifteen years ago and not pay any attention to them when you met them and, you know, maybe meet someone and not remember that you met them?
A. Very possible.
Q. All right. Now, the Campisi's, there was some conversation about the Campisi's. Do you know them through their restaurant business?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And other than the fact that before your son married into the Ianni family, what was your connection with Joe Ianni?
A. I just knew him. He was in the restaurant business. I would go in there and eat.
Q. In fact, when I was a little boy, you carried me in his restaurant to eat on occasion?
A. Probably.
MR. BIESEL: That concludes this Deposition. Thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 12:00 p.m., the proceedings in the above-entitled matter were closed.)

I, CODY C. BLAKESLEE, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that the testimony of the witness which appears in the foregoing deposition was taken by me in shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my direct on; that said deposition is a true record of the direction testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, or financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
Certified Shorthand Reporter

I have read the foregoing pages, 1 through 47, inclusive, and they are a true and accurate record of my testimony therein recorded.
Subscribed and sworn to before me
this day of , 1978.
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Notary Public
My Commission Expires :