Testimony Of Mrs. Bruce Carlin
The testimony of Mrs. Bruce Carlin was taken at 1:40 p.m., on August 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex. by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr. assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Bruce Carlin.
Mrs. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress. No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what pertinent facts you may know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and about his operations and associates and so forth.
Mrs. Carlin, there has been a letter addressed to you, but apparently it went to the wrong address, and this letter asked you to appear here, and of course the letter therefore was not received.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears has a right to have a 3-day written notice before they actually appear. The rules also provide that you may waive that written notice, and if you are willing to testify now without that 3-day written notice, you may do so. Of course, you can claim the privilege of having the 3-day notice or you can waive it and go ahead and testify now. Is it your wish to waive it and testify now without the 3 days' written notice?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the teStimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You are Mrs. Bruce Carlin, is that so?
Mr. HUBERT. You had a stage name, I think, of what?
Mrs. CARLIN. Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think your name is also Karen?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That's (spelling) K-a-re-n?
Mrs. CARLIN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. There are only a few questions I need to ask you. Is your father alive?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mrs. CARLIN. Chattanooga, Tenn.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any member of your family who was killed by violence?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. No brothers or father-in-law or anyone of that sort?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't believe so. I haven't heard from any of them in quite a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know of anybody that was murdered?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are your mother and father still living together?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Has your mother remarried?
Mrs. CARLIN. No--I won't say definitely no, because I don't know. I really don't know if she has remarried or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know of any person who was killed by violence in your family?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You know Kathy Kay, of course?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that her full name?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know her full name. All I knew her by was Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Harry Olsen?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mrs. CARLIN. Her boy friend--I believe that was his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he then a member of the police force, the Dallas police force?
Mrs. CARLIN. He was supposed to be; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether they have married or not?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see her?
Mrs. CARLIN. Right before---I guess--yes, it was right before the President was killed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was the night--the last night we worked. I believe it was a Thursday night was the last night we worked.
Mr. HUBERT. Thursday was November 21st. Where did you see her?
Mrs. CARLIN. At the place--at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. She was a dancer there?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen there then?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't think so. I saw Harry after that.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. CARLIN. One night he came up to the club--no, it wasn't up to the club. One night I walked down--I-was walking to the bus station and this little parking lot right next door, he was standing inside, so I went inside to ask him a.bout Kathy, to ask how she was and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the shooting of the President was this that you saw Harry Olsen?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it after Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand from your testimony then, that you did not see Kathy Kay or Harry Olsen on Friday, November 22 when the President was shot, or the next day, Saturday, or the day after that-on Sunday, November 24?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did see Kathy again.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't seen her then since this Thursday night, the 21st?
Mrs. CARLIN. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And Harry Olsen only once and that was after Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When the club had reopened?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And when Mr. Paul was operating it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have seen pictures of Lee Oswald, I suppose?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I never paid any attention to them. I don't remember what he even looked like.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; as I told yOU before, I never did see him. I saw him somewhere but I wouldn't say--it was either somebody that looked like him or I had seen him somewhere, but I couldn't say where because I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you saw him, you mean you saw a man whom you think resembles the pictures that you have seen of Lee Oswald since?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been at the club?
Mrs. CARLIN. As I said before, it could have been, but I don't know for sure. I won't say for sure. I just know that it was either him or someone that resembled him--I've seen somewhere. It could have been just about anywhere.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it then that you are really uncertain as to whether the man you think was or possibly resembled Oswald was in fact Oswald, you're not sure about that?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know Oswald; no.
Mr. HUBERT. You just think t.hat there was a resemblance between the man you recollect and the pictures of Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do not remember--you are not positive about it being the same man?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you remember where you saw him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No--I saw so many different faces. I never paid any attention to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way--would it be most likely if you saw such a man,-would it have been in the club or could it have been some place else?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, most likely it would have been there at the club or where I went to eat around the club, because that's about the only places I've been--walking from the club to where I eat, the drugstore, and walking back.
Mr. HUBERT. This man that you saw that you think resembles the pictures of Oswald, or maybe did, you would have seen either at the club or at this drugstore near the club?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At the drugstore where you had supper?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Secret Service agent by the name of Roger Warner?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't remember him. I've talked to so many.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember telling any Secret Service agent that you had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I remember telling them the same thing I told you. That's all I've ever said, that it could have been but I'm not going to say for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a positive identification?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And if it's so reported, it's simply a misstatement in the report?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I would say so because the only thing I have said is that it could possibly be, but I'm not going to say for sure, but the man resembled Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell any Secret Service agent or any Government official at all that you thought that Oswald and Ruby were connected in some way?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I can never remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember speaking to anyone about that--the possibilities of their being connected?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes; I spoke to several people at the club--the Secret Service and the FBI--so many of them.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about the possibility of a connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don't remember ever saying anything like that. I've said it before but it was only hearsay or what I believed myself.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you believe yourself?
Mrs. CARLIN. Myself?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, maybe I shouldn't say. I don't think I really should because it's just one person's opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have anything to base it upon?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; it's just my own opinion--nothing that I saw, you know, for myself. It's Just my own opinion by the way people talk and by him, Jack Ruby, himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was that about Jack Ruby himself that would support a possible connection between him and Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. Just the way he was--the things I've read in the newspapers and things about him I saw for myself; people he would talk to; always having people in his office; and things like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That leads you to form that conclusion?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; for myself.
Mr. HUBERT. But what is the conclusion you form from that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, that he had connections with Lee Harvey Oswald. This is my own opinion. There's nothing to base it on, except my own opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that because you saw these people going into the office and so forth?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and because of the things the newspapers have said, and the neighbors--the way that they talk about him and the things that they have said. It's just the things that have been put in my mind that leave doubt there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, aside from what other people have told you or what you read in the paper, do you have anything that you can tell us that you know yourself that would lead you to form the conclusion that there was a connection between them?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.; nothing that I saw or nothing that I heard, or anyone I saw even was there that I could hear talking, or anything--no. It's been so long ago I can't remember very much any more.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that during the course of the Ruby trial when you were waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some people got out of the jail, and I think they passed right near by you, I believe?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what you screamed or said?
Mrs. CARLIN. "Oh, my God, they're after me."
Mr. HUBERT. Yes what made you believe that "they" were after you?
Mrs. CARLIN. Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I ever got court.
Mr. HUBERT. Who do you think was going to kill you?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know exactly who or why. I just felt that I was going to get killed.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, who did you mean by "they," when you said "they" were after
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, there was a man that was running after me there was two of them, and I saw some kind of little weapon, it looked like, but I don't remember very much.
Mr. HUBERT. So, when you used the word "they," you meant those people there who were escaping?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have in mind some other group of people who were after you?
Mrs. CARLIN. No---well, it all goes back to where I used to work. I had already been threatened by Pat Kirkwood and I didn't know they were escaping from the jail when I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Pat Kirkwood
Mrs. CARLIN. He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been threatened by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was--he had some publicity people down there--- television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the President was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, "I want you down here in about 20 minute," and I said, "Kirkwood, I don't want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me alone."
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN. After I went to court, he says, "I want you down here" and I said, "Well, I'm not coming down." He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, "Why aren't you down here?" He said, "I'll send a cab up after you."
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you
Mrs. CARLIN. I was at home in bed, I wasn't feeling too good, and my husband was out working. So, right after he called me---I was still on the telephone, and my husband walked in, and he had just finished saying, "If you're not down here, you won't be around too long," and then my husband walked in and let him have the telephone and they talked then.
Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband say?
Mrs. CARLIN. My husband told him I wasn't coming down and if he gave me any trouble he would tell the police about it, and he said, "Well, I'll see her on the way to the club and I'll see that she never makes it inside the door."
We moved from the apartments that we were in that Kirkwood knew we were living in--we moved from there and Kirkwood didn't know anything about it, and he went looking for me over there and asked my landlord about me and where to find me, and then he was supposed to meet me up at the Carousel Club and knock me out so I couldn't get in--he was going to see that I never made it, and he never did show up. He called the colored man that took care of the place. He called him and told him to tell me that he had called, and I don't remember what all he said to the colored man, but he called him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he again?
Mrs. CARLIN. Pat Kirkwood.
Mr. HUBERT. He operates the Cellar, you say? That's a nightclub?
Mrs. CARLIN. It's a beatnik club here in town on Main Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from him since?
Mrs. CARLIN. I haven't heard from him--no; not since then.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been last January?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you remember the Friday night that the President was shot, did you go to work that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. CARLIN. I got a telephone call.
Mr. HUBERT. Who from?
Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the colored man.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of day was that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don't remember--I have no idea. It's been so long.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Larry Crafard that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't remember if I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. You know who Larry Crafard was?
Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the lights.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the spotlights and things--I don't know his last name, but I knew him by Larry.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall whether you called him that night?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don't recall. If I did, it was to see if I was coming to work or something, because I don't remember it. It must not have been very important.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you came into Dallas on Saturday night with your husband and Tammi True?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time had your husband gotten back that day, do you remember how much before you'all came into Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. I didn't understand.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come to Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was right before working time and we started about 8:30. It was right before that.
Mr. HUBERT. No; how long had your husband been home when you started out to go to Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know--he come in and out so many times.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether he had been on a trip that weekend?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don't even remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in town when the President was killed, do you remember that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes--well, I don't know. I don't know whether he was or not, I believe he was, though.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he used to go out on trips, didn't he?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he used to go out and stay almost the whole night working motels with Mr. Bunker, and sometimes they would be gone for 2 or 3 days, but I don't remember at that time where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. I Show you two photos which have been identified as Exhibit No. 1 in the Deposition of Bruce Carlin, and ask you if you can identify the person who is represented by those pictures?
Mrs. CARLIN. (examining instruments referred to). No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know an Officer J. D. Tippit, the man who was shot by Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don't. I don't know. I won't say, because there was---oh, I don't know how many used to come in and out and I was usually on stage and the lights were blinding me.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you don't recognize the man who is shown in the pictures marked Exhibits. Nos. 1 and 2 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also that have been identified as Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin and ask you if you recognize the man who is shown in those pictures?
Mrs. CARLIN. This is the same one that they showed me a couple of days ago and I said that I wasn't for sure, but he resembles the man that took over after Jack went to jail. There was a Paul and he worked the cash register, and there was a man that resembled him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was a man employed at the Carousel, a Mr. Paul, after Ruby was put in jail, this Mr. Paul took over and there was a man employed there by this Mr. Paul, and you think that the man who is represented in pictures 3 and 4 looks something like that?
Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes. He was a little bit older, the man was, but it resembles him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what his name was?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anybody talk to him?
Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was just "Hello" and "Goodnight."
Mr. HUBERT. How long was he there?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know. Like I say, everything has been so long ago and there's so many people that asked me so many things--I don't even remember, but I talked to him one night about--I guess about 30 minutes or an hour and he's supposed to have a family in Los Angeles, Calif., and two children, and that's about all that he ever told me about himself.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know his name?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he told me, but I don't remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Bernard Weissman refresh your memory in any way?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that's the name of the man that was there?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. YOu're not sure that this was the man?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the man represented in Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you called Ruby on Saturday night to ask him for money where did you call? What number did you call--home?
Mrs. CARLIN. At his home. Tammi True gave me the number and I called it. It was supposed to be at his apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't remember if he answered the phone the first time. You see, I called twice, but I think the first time I think there was someone else that answered the phone and called him to the phone. Like I said, everything has been so long ago.
Mr. HUBERT. And the first time I think he told you he couldn't lend you any money, isn't that it?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That call was made where?
Mrs. CARLIN. To his home.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean--where from?
Mrs. CARLIN. It was made from the Colony Club next door at the telephone there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you called him again a little while later?
Mrs. CARLIN. And he said, "I'll meet you down at the club" and he never did show up so I called back.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you wait between the two calls?
Mrs. CARLIN. About 30 or 40 minutes. He said it would take about 40 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you called the second time, you called him the second time?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and he said he wouldn't be able to make it, that he was busy right then, and to get the man on the telephone at the carlot, which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him for?
Mrs. CARLIN. I asked him for enough money to get home, at least.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the call the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN. He told me to call back some time the next day and tell him how much I had to have, and which I did. I called back, but the only reason I called as early as I did--we saw on television what had happened. Well, I called first--we got up about--I don't remember--I think it was about 9 or 9:30 or something like that, and my husband told me I'd better call him, and so I called.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was going to send the money by Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; he didn't say.
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you called on Sunday morning?
Mrs. CARLIN. He told me he was going to send it by Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday night he didn't tell you how he was going to send it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you called him on Sunday, did he suggest Western Union or did you?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; I didn't suggest anything, neither did he. He just said "I'm going to send it. How shall I send it?"
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you?
Mrs. CARLIN. He said, "How shall I send it?" I said, "Send it in Karen Bennett, because that's the only identification I have."
Mr. HUBERT. But it was his idea to send it by Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you be sure about that, or perhaps you suggested that he send it, isn't that right?
Mrs. CARLIN. I won't say for sure about anything. I'm not for sure about nothing any more. I could have said, "That will be the quickest way" or "How are you going to send it?" I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the method of sending the money discussed on Saturday night?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't believe so--no. I just think he said, "Call me tomorrow and tell me how much you need."
Mr. HUBERT. Well, didn't it occur to you .that the money would have to be gotten to you some way on Sunday?
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I thought perhaps that I could tell him how much I would need and then Tammi was going to have to make another trip over there and she could pick it up for me.
Mr. HUBERT. You had those thoughts at that time?
Mrs. CARLIN. At that time, yes, but then when he said he would send it, that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. It was his idea, wasn't it?
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't remember, whether it was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you made arrangements with Tammi to go get it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; you see, he owed Tammi some money and she had quit and she was going to get the money. Well, that night she couldn't get the money, because, like I said, he didn't show down at the club so I figured she had to make another trip
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to her about it?
Mrs. CARLIN. No; she had to get some gowns and things out of the club, so I thought perhaps she would go and get it. I hadn't even discussed it with her or anything. She didn't discuss it with me, she just said she wanted to get her money and her gowns and she was very persistent, and she needed it to go to Oklahoma City, I believe, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mrs. Carlin, in ending this deposition, let me ask you if there has been any conversations between us except that which has gone into the record here today?
Mrs. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.We appreciate your coming down.
Mrs. CARLIN. All right, thank you.