TESTIMONY OF EVERETT D. GLOVER
The testimony of Everett D. Clover was taken at 11 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Glover, would you stand? Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in response to my questions in the taking now of your deposition?
Mr. GLOVES. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Glover, you have received, I think, sometime last week a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, advising you we desire to take your testimony by deposition.
Mr. GLOVER. Advising me that you wanted to take my testimony. I don't know whether it was specifically deposition, but yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now the Commission has been established to investigate and report all the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and any participation by Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald and others in that tragic event.
We understand that you had some acquaintance with the Oswalds as well as people in the community who, in turn, had an acquaintance with the Oswald's, and that you also had an acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, naming him in particular, although there are others I will probably examine you about. But it is in those general areas that I will proceed.
Now you are at liberty to have counsel present should you so desire, and since you don't appear to have anybody with you, I assume you do not wish any counsel?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is Everett D. Clover?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you reside in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Where is your present residence?
Mr. GLOVER. My present residence is 9838 Webbs Chapel Road, Dallas, 20.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided there, sir?
Mr. GLOVER. Since January 1, of this year, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside immediately prior to that?
Mr. GLOVER. 5723 Southwestern Boulevard. I forget the zone in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. How long had you resided there?
Mr. GLOVER. Sometime around April 20, of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. I will have to keep going back. Where did you live prior to that?
Mr. GLOVER. I lived at 4449 Potomac in Dallas also. It is in University Park.
Mr. JENNER. For what span of time?
Mr. GLOVER. Span of time there, I don't have the figures right in my mind, but approximately 2 years there.
Mr. JENNER. That would take you back to sometime in 1961?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. We'd have to check these to be sure, this is approximately.
Mr. JENNER. That is sufficient. I will ask you this general question. Over how long have you resided in Dallas or the Dallas area?
Mr. GLOVER. Since 1955. June 2, 1955, I took a position with Socony Mobil Oil Co. and came here to work on that day. I have lived here since that time.
Mr., JENNER. Are you married?
Mr. GLOVER. I am married; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am married for the second time at the present time. My former wife and a son by my former marriage are living in Pennsylvania.
Mr. JENNER. Of what country are you a native?
Mr. GLOVER. United States.
Mr. JENNER. You were born in the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. How old are you?
Mr. GLOVER. 47 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you born in the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. I was born in Worcester, Mass. I resided in Millbury, Mass., but I was actually born in the city of Worcester.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about your education, please. Elementary school and high school and if you went beyond high school.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I went to college at North Clark University in Worcester, Mass., and I later went to the University of Wisconsin. I completed a master's degree there and a great deal of work on a doctor's degree.
Mr. JENNER. So you have a bachelor of arts degree?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And master's degree and you have completed a good deal of work on a Ph.D.?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You were first married when?
Mr. GLOVER. 1940.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then?
Mr. GLOVER. At that time I was residing in Worcester, Mass.
Mr. JENNER. What was your wife's maiden name?
Mr. GLOVER. The name was Mary Elizabeth Butler.
Mr. JENNER. She was a resident of Worcester, was she?
Mr. GLOVER. She was a resident of Worcester.
Mr. JENNER. And was a native-born American?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes;she was.
Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have by that marriage?
Mr. GLOVER. I have one.
Mr. JENNER. He is with his mother, is he?
Mr. GLOVER. He is with his mother now in Pennsylvania; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That marriage was terminated in divorce when?
Mr. GLOVER. In Texas last year, 1963, in June, I believe it was, the 29th.
Mr. JENNER. All right, had you been separated from your wife prior to that time?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had been separated.
Mr. JENNER. When did the separation occur?
Mr. GLOVER. The separation occurred on approximately September 1 of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then?
Mr. GLOVER. I was residing at 4449 Potomac.
Mr. JENNER. Did your wife leave this vicinity then?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she left this vicinity then.
Mr. JENNER. And returned to where or went to where?
Mr. GLOVER. She didn't return. The circumstances of her leaving were that my son is very interested avocationally in ice skating, and he had earned enough money selling the Times Herald, the local newspaper, to take him for 1 summer's ice skating, and it so happened that he ended up in Hershey, Pa. which has a teacher or pro who is very good, and the circumstances just happened that way.
Mr. JENNER. Indoor arena rink?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he stayed there for the summer and he wanted to stay there
beyond that time very badly. He wanted to continue his ice skating under some such situation as he had there, and my wife and I had not gotten along too well, and it seemed like a natural time to make a separation, so she left and went to Pennsylvania during this time at approximately the end of the summer and stayed there, and I filed for a divorce.
Again I am not sure of the actual date, but approximately December 1 of that year, 1962. And the divorce was granted in the summer in 1963, approximately June 29, of 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And you remarried when?
Mr. GLOVER. I remarried August the 26th of this same year, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. And remained in the same quarters, did you?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I moved about April 20 to 5723 Southwestern Boulevard after having sold the house at 4449 Potomac, which I owned, and made the divorce settlement.
Then I moved to 5723 Southwestern Boulevard where I rented a house with two colleagues of mine where I worked, who were all unattached, since I had to move from 4449 Potomac. One moved in on December 1, 1962, and another one on January 1, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Now when you and your wife separated, that is when she went to Pennsylvania, Hershey, Pa., with her son for this period, did anyone join you in your quarters as roommates or persons living with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, these are the people I just referred to. One man, Richard L. Pierce, who works with me in the same section of my laboratory, joined me December 1, of 1962, and the second man, Volkmar Schmidt, who came from Germany and worked with the company as a geologist, came to live with me approximately January 1.
It was an arrangement we tried out to see if there would be mutual satisfaction.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a German derivation?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not.
Mr. JENNER. What is yours?
Mr. GLOVER. My background on that respect, my derivation would be English on both sides. I know on the Clover side it is English and goes back down to the 1700, but I don't know the other side very well.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What is your occupation, profession, business or avocation?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, occupation is as a chemist working with the geology group in the exploration section of Socony Mobil Oil Co., Field Research Laboratory here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Your master's degree was in what?
Mr. GLOVER. It was in soil science.
Mr. JENNER. Involved chemistry?
Mr. GLOVER. Involved chemistry of fine grain material such as soil, sediments, and so forth.
This is the reason that I am working where I am, because of the kind of work I do, in the geology section. It is not soil per se, but using techniques in dealing with problems similar to soil problems.
Mr. JENNER. And in turn, related to the discovery or production or recovery of oil?
Mr. GLOVER. It is related particularly to the exploration for oil. That is the study of the mechanical constituents of rocks in which the oil is found.
I would say involving research work in order to find some more easily recognized signs of oil. That is the long term objective.
Mr. JENNER. I would say this to you, sir. It is common that witnesses can, especially in this type of examination where the witness sits across the desk from a questioner, to drop his voice. So to the extent that you can recall it, you won't do it all the time, keep your voice up.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. When and under what circumstances did you first become acquainted with Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. Again this is connected with my ice skating activities which I didn't mention. I mentioned my son's.
One of my avocations is ice skating. I do not know the exact time, but sometime in the period, I would say 1956 to 1959, when I have been ice skating, I met Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on the ice rink skating by herself. She skated a considerable time, maybe, probably, part of a year, and then later she brought Mr. De Mohrenschildt there, and that is the first acquaintance I had with them. This was a casual acquaintance.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. This is the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Was she then married to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. I have no way of knowing. I wouldn't have thought of this particularly except in conversation with the FBI. By their reaction, what he said, apparently there was some question about this, but I wouldn't have known that myself. I assumed she was.
Mr. JENNER. Well, in order that we are certain we have the same lady in mind, did you learn what her first name was?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The name she wanted to be called was "Jon," the French J-e-a-n-n-e.
I didn't see it written down, but she insisted on her being called "Jon," the French.
Mr. JENNER. By American, it is Jeanne?
Mr. GLOVER. Jeanne, right.
Mr. JENNER. When you talk about ice skating, you mean figure skating?
Mr. GLOVER. Figure skating; right.
Mr. JENNER. This relationship, at least for a time, was relatively casual?
Mr. GLOVER. It was very casual. In fact, they did not seem very much interested in other people.
Mr. JENNER. Did that acquaintance ripen eventually into a friendship, or at least a closer relationship than that you have indicated?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, there are two phases of my acquaintance with them. The first phase ended when they didn't come to the skating rink any more, and I cannot recall when this was. But if it were necessary to find out, I could possibly find out more in detail, because they joined the Dallas Figure Skating Club which I belonged to, and it was after I had belonged to that organization a year or so that they left.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me for the moment your best recollection as to when the first period of time to which you have reference ended?
Mr. GLOVER. Ended?
Mr. JENNER. That is, the casual acquaintance.
Mr. GLOVER. I really honestly don't know when that was.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe we can get at it this way. What is your present recollection as to the intervening span in which you had either little or no contact with the De Mohrenschildts? How long did that run?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know when I met them--I think I know when I met them again. This was in connection with playing tennis. And that must have been in the spring, I believe, of 1962, sometime in that period.
Mr. JENNER. You and your former wife were still living together at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, that's right; my former wife was still in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the intervening period when you had a little or no contact with the De Mohrenschildts covered as much as a couple of years?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say that is what I think, but I could check this point if necessary.
Mr. JENNER. We will let you know as to whether we want you to do that. That acquaintance was then renewed under what circumstances?
Mr. GLOVER. I went to a party at a friend's house one night.
Mr. JENNER. Who is the friend?
Mr. GLOVER. The man's name is Lauriston C. Marshall.
Mr. JENNER. That is a new name to me.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he is called Larry, but his name, I am quite sure, was----
Mr. JENNER. L-a-u-r-i-s-t-o-n C. M-a-r-s-h-a-l-l?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GLOVER. He lived in Garland here.
Mr. JENNER. Garland, Tex.?
Mr. GLOVER. Right. This is not where I met the De Mohrenschildts, but that is the connection. I was at his house and I met Sam Ballen. And something was said about playing tennis, and it turns out that he likes to play tennis and I also like to play tennis. I hadn't played very much since I had been in Dallas, but I always wanted to play more than I had a chance to, and he said, "How about tomorrow morning?" and I agreed, okay.
So when I went to play tennis the next morning, it turned out that the other two people involved in this match of four people, doubles, was the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. You played doubles in tennis with him the next morning, Sunday morning?
Mr. GLOVER. This sounds right. I believe it was a Saturday night party, and I was playing Sunday morning. I believe that is what it was.
Mr. JENNER. And your friendship with the De Mohrenschildts blossomed?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, we played tennis an awful lot more. That was the basis.
Mr. JENNER. You say the double, the lady who played tennis with you on that initial occasion, was the same lady who had accompanied Mr. De Mohrenschildt earlier on the ice rink?
Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me, please, and I want you to tell me in your own words. I will try not to interrupt you, or at least I will keep it to a minimum, what you learned about George De Mohrenschildt first?
Mr. GLOVER. You mean what I learned about him from my complete acquaintance with him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. What he was like and so forth?
Mr. JENNER. What he was like, what you learned from him, if you can indicate information you received directly from him as to his travels, if any, as to his work, as to any associations he had.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, it is pretty hard to produce some order out of it, because I never got a complete picture. But he had apparently, and I believe this to be true, had come back from a trip to South America. I mean to Mexico where he had walked from the north edge of Mexico down to Central America, to Panama.
Mr. JENNER. Your information in this respect was obtained directly from him?
Mr. GLOVER. Directly from him and also by films which he had showing his trip, and also the fact that he apparently corresponded with Sam Ballen during the time that he had been down there, and that was mentioned, the fact that he had corresponded.
Mr. JENNER. Who mentioned it, Ballen or De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure about that sir, but from one or the other people, I am sure I got the distinct impression that they corresponded.
He sent letters to Sam Ballen during the time he was there, so I do believe, and I have no reason not to believe, that he made such a trip, seeing the film.
Mr. JENNER. You saw the film?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also talked to Mr. De Mohrenschildt, or he with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had conversations with him about his trip to Mexico, and he told you about it?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit the film?
Mr. GLOVER. He exhibited the film.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt the lady called Jeanne and who preferred to be called "Jon" (Jeanne)?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was she present when the film was shown?
Mr. GLOVER She was present.
Mr. JENNER. And you also had conversation with her?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she confirm, as well as Mr. De Mohrenschildt, their trip, walking trip into Mexico?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the De Mohrenschildts, either of them having any--having met any officials with the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. During that trip?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. No, sir; not that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Not at all?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impression on that score, then?
Mr. GLOVER. I cannot remember any such thing was said.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then, it is your impression that this was a walking pleasure trip, a vacation, that sort of thing in which he and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt traveled from the border--that would be the north border of Mexico down as far as Panama?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, but I would amend your statement a little bit. You said pleasure trip. It was in a sense, the way I understood the reason for this was, that De Mohrenschildt had a son and daughter by his, according to him, I believe, last marriage. The son had died of cystic fibrosis, and I had the impression that he was very much attached to his son, and this was one of the reasons that he sort of threw up everything. I had been given to believe he was in the oil consulting business.
Mr. JENNER. You were given to believe that De Mohrenschildt was in the oil consulting business?
Mr. GLOVER. Previous to that and after that time, too, and that he had thrown everything up and done this. He said that he and someone else started to make this trip at a much earlier time. I am not sure what time it was, but it was a long time. Seems to me he said they tried to drive a Model "T" Ford and hadn't been successful.
Mr. JENNER. That would be quite a long time ago?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. That might be older than De Mohrenschildt is. I don't know when he came here, really, of course.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GLOVER. But anyway, maybe it is a Model "A" Ford. I really am not sure about that point. It doesn't sound right, a Model "T" Ford.
Mr. JENNER. A Model "T," say that is my error, and the Model "A"
Mr. GLOVER. Model "A" came in 1927 and 1928.
Mr. JENNER. 1927, 1928, and 1929. I was about a junior in college then.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I am a little bit younger than that. I was 10 years old in 1927, but I distinctly remember the Model "T's." I am not sure, but the important thing as far as my recollection was, he said he wanted to take this trip and started to take it with another fellow and he didn't get very far, but then he this time did take the trip and the feeling I had was the motivation was--he had been completely broken up by his son dying and he wanted to do this a long time ago, he went ahead and did it.
And his wife wanted to do it with him and they did it.
Mr. JENNER. So the impression you obtained from the conversation you heard overall was that the trip was not motivated by any objective or plan to have any contact with any persons connected with the Soviet Union, or representing the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get any such impression.
One other thing, I did get the impression, he mentioned specifically that he had some business along the way, which was looking at old mining areas.
Now I got the impression, although it was a hazy one, that he was actually being paid by some private concern to look at old mining areas as he passed through there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you have any impression of any other trips that Mr. De Mohrenschildt made outside of this country?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. He told me that after the war he was on a, I don't know
whether he was connected--somehow he said with a State Department venture which he was doing something with regard to advising in oil matters in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had gone to Yugoslavia?
Mr. GLOVER. He had gone to Yugoslavia, he told me that. He described the living there when he was there, drinking lots of wine in Yugoslavia with women and so forth, and it wasn't very descriptive, but from what he said, I got a very distinct impression he had been there, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression that he was married at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I did. In fact, the impression I have, and I am not sure exactly where it all comes from, when I first met Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, she was alone, and her husband was never with her, and she was not very cordial at all.
You saw someone skating around and you'd just say a word and she was not particularly cordial.
And even later, I am not sure exactly the amount of time, but maybe a season of skating, he appeared.
And I assumed afterwards, I am not sure what basis I had, that this was the time that he was away in Yugoslavia, and he came back. And I think they referred to that afterwards, as if that were the case.
Mr. JENNER. In this early period was anything else said to you affirmatively that Jeanne or "Jon" De Mohrenschildt was his wife at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. When I come to think of it, I don't know of any specific instance where there was a big point made of them being married, but I assumed, since they were living together, and I just assumed that.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know they were living together?
Mr. GLOVER. At what time?
Mr. JENNER. The earlier period.
Mr. GLOVER. The earlier period, no. The later period I didn't live too far away from them. I would go to their house and have a glass of beer after the tennis match, and later I went to their house quite often.
Mr. JENNER. The tennis match was the second period?
Mr. GLOVER. The first period I don't have any proof whatsoever except it seemed to me they were giving the same name.
Mr. JENNER. They were?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. Now that could be checked with the Dallas Figure Skating Club where they were members. I assumed they were husband and wife.
Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to George De Mohrenschildt's past in connection with whether he had been married more than once?
Mr. GLOVER. He said he had been married four times, including this.
Mr. JENNER. Including the marriage to Jeanne or Jon?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So he had had three marriages prior to this time?
Mr. GLOVER. That is what he said. He used to talk about that quite often, make remarks to the fact that he had been married four times.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a son who died. Did he say anything about having any other children?
Mr. GLOVER. A daughter.
Mr. JENNER. A daughter?
Mr. GLOVER. Same wife.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about whether she was alive or dead?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he talked quite a bit about her.
Mr. JENNER. As being alive or dead?
Mr. GLOVER. As being alive.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion eventually in which there was a discussion in which he indicated that she had been--she had become deceased?
Mr. GLOVER. No. He never indicated anything to me that she had become deceased. He talked quite a bit about her and was still talking about custody of the daughter who was remaining with the mother, who was trying to prevent any possible change in custody. That was right up to the last I knew him.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether at any time you stated to the FBI that he had two children and they had both died?
Mr. GLOVER. I stated that he had two children?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GLOVER. And they had both died?
Mr. JENNER. Did die, yes.
Mr. GLOVER. I did not state such.
Mr. JENNER. Had two children by the marriage to Wynne Sharples.
Mr. GLOVER. The last name Sharples is correct, and I remember the nickname "Deedee" of the woman who he said he was married to by whom he had two children.
I did not say to the FBI that he had two children who died. I have said he had two children one of which died who apparently had cystic fibrosis.
Mr. JENNER. All right, did he mention any other relative of his?
Mr. GLOVER. I was asked this question by the FBI, and I believe he mentioned--I know he mentioned a brother--a brother who taught school, and I believe it is Dartmouth, N.H., and I think he taught history.
Anyhow, he taught some subject or related subject on liberal arts, but I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. He did mention Dartmouth?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be sure.
Mr. JENNER. Could have--could he have mentioned Princeton instead of Dartmouth?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't think so, because I remember it being in that area up in the upper New England States, somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of Jeanne or "Jon's" background?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. The impression I got of her background was that she was of White Russian stock and came through China where she was married, and then came to this country. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. That she had come from Russia and gone to China?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know whether anyone said White Russia, but whether they said that or not, I got the impression that she had come originally from Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn anything about--perhaps I'd better so pursue Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She had come through China?
Mr. GLOVER. She lived in China and was brought up there as a young girl, married, presumably, a Chinese man, and then came to this country. That is the story I got, and apparently from what she said, he did not adjust.
Mr. JENNER. She came here with her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that he was a Chinese?
Mr. GLOVER. I had that impression.
Mr. JENNER. After they arrived here, the husband did not adjust well?
Mr. GLOVER. Right, and it led to their breakup.
Mr. JENNER. And they were then divorced?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or at least broke up, as far as you know?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. And that her marriage to George De Mohrenschildt was her second marriage?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had any business or occupation herself?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes, I did. She had worked some time during--at the time that I first met her, she worked as a designer of clothes.
Mr. JENNER. For what company?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know what company, but she worked here in Dallas at the time. I believe at the time she joined the Figure Skating Club, someone learned that. I don't think she told me particularly, but someone, that she did this.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation on the subject with her which served to confirm the report that you had obtained from someone else? That is, that she worked as a designer here in Dallas.
Mr. GLOVER. I cannot recall at the time of the first meeting with her, but at
a later time, from things that were said, I am quite sure that she referred to that time when she worked, yes, here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your general impression of her. What kind of person was and is she?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the most obvious thing about her that I can recall was her very, very great desire to help and dominate people, to help solve their problems, is the thing that always impressed me about her.
She had one daughter, which I haven't mentioned, apparently by this previous marriage, who grew up and who I met one time when she was passing through.
Mr. JENNER. That is, passing through Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. With her husband. That was during the later period.
Mr. JENNER. She was married and lived somewhere else in this country?
Mr. GLOVER. All I know is that daughter and husband came from a Mexican trip and were going to Alaska.
And she had this one daughter who she talked very much about, how she had brought her up and so forth, and she seemed to have a desire to sort of help people out and sort of arrange their affairs.
She tried one time to give me advice on my family situation, at which time, as one would say, I told her off, told her that I had my own ideas about what I wanted to do about the situation and was not interested in hers at all. But that is the most outstanding impression I have of her, always trying to do something for someone, arrange things in some way, sort of an overdeveloped mother tendency, to me.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of her, please.
Mr. GLOVER. Physically, I am depending somewhat on some pictures she showed. According to her, when she showed pictures in the album.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean--are you relating to the pictures to describe Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. No; well, I will just leave that out, if you prefer.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the physical characteristics of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt as you knew her, saw her.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she was a person who looked in fairly good physical shape.
Mr. JENNER. About how old?
Mr. GLOVER. She looked like she was about 40 years old. She was accumulating fat on her body which was very noticeable. We played tennis all the time, and she looked like someone fortyish and was beginning to get quite a lot of fat.
Mr. JENNER. What about coloration?
Mr. GLOVER. Color of hair was brown, medium brown. I don't remember people's eyes very well. It sort of seems to me like they were blue. I am not sure. Her height was medium height.
Mr. JENNER. Medium for a woman and medium for a man differ--what would you say, five two, or five three or five five?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not very conscious. I would say five five or five six, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you please stand and tell us how tall you are?
The REPORTER. I am five two and a half in my stocking feet and about five five with heels.
Mr. JENNER. Having observed the reporter, what is your present recollection about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's height. Is she taller or shorter?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say her height without her heels or anything was at least as tall as she is standing now, would be five five or five six which I said, or possibly taller than that. I am not very sure.
Mr. JENNER. But she was inclined to be on the heavy side?
Mr. GLOVER. Slightly. She was getting heavy.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say she weighed, offhand?
Mr. GLOVER. She talked about that when we were playing tennis. I can't remember. I really don't know. Maybe, I would say, 110 to 120, or so.
Mr. JENNER. She was five five and she weighed 110 pounds? She would be awfully thin.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she must have weighed more than that. I am not very conscious about that.
(Comments off the record.)
Mr. GLOVER. Maybe she would be 130 or so. Maybe she weighed a little bit more than that.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt speak to you of his background?
Mr. GLOVER. He spoke somewhat of it. I didn't get a very clear picture of the exact tracings of his background. I got a picture of him having been born in Sweden. He said he came from Sweden. And having lived in Russia for a short time, and then having left there. And the next thing I remember him saying was that he fought with the Polish National Army sometime in the Second World War, and had left the army. Now I am not quite sure when that was, when the army was disbanded, when Hitler invaded, or some other time. I am not sure. It must have been then, I guess, but that is the hazy impression I have of that part of it.
Mr. JENNER. At the time of the invasion of Poland by Hitler, which was roughly September of 1939, De Mohrenschildt then left Poland?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he left the Polish Army at the same time. I really don't know for sure when that was. I didn't think very much about it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he came directly to this country at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not have any impression of him saying he came directly here, no. The next thing I remember about his telling his background was that he came here to this country.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Texas?
Mr. GLOVER. First he came to New York, according to his story. And I remember one comment he made about that. He was wined and dined and passed around to people who he knew in some way, and this was fine, but when he came to find a job, he had a lot of trouble. And the next period I remember is that he was at the University of Texas, and I assume he was going to school and got a degree in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. But you are not so sure about that? You have the impression that he was a person who had the benefit of higher education?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I assumed that he had had at least some school knowledge of the subject of petroleum engineering or petroleum in general.
Mr. JENNER. He did say that he attended the university in this State?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he said he attended the University of Texas, I am quite sure. At least I got that impression. I am not sure of his exact words. He talked about being a student, so I guess I just assumed that. I don't know whether he said specifically he attended as a full-time student.
Mr. JENNER. Describe George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. GLOVER. He is a heavy set rather Mr. Atlas type.
Mr. JENNER. Atlas or Adonis?
Mr. GLOVER. I notice that he is still around, Mr. Atlas. Very healthy looking specimen. Tall and heavy set. Little bit clumsy in his movements.
Mr. JENNER. A big man, in other words?
Mr. GLOVER. Big man, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And handsome?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, that is a matter of what you call handsome.
Mr. JENNER. You described him in that respect.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think he was a, he might be called handsome by somebody. I would call him a good heavy-looking physical specimen.
Mr. JENNER. Color of hair?
Mr. GLOVER. Hair was some kind of brown.
Mr. JENNER. Had a good crop of hair?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; a lot of curly, wavy hair.
Mr. JENNER. What about his personality?
Mr. GLOVER. He was a very great mixture of things.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.
Mr. GLOVER. He was a very cynical sort of person. He was a Bohemian sort of person.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, but what do you mean by "Bohemian type of person"?
Mr. GLOVER. I mean he lived the kind of life where he went the way he
wanted to go and he did what he wanted to do and he didn't care very much about what anyone said.
He wanted to play tennis, morning, noon and night. He wanted to dress the way he wanted to. He was not very conforming in his physical dress or in his appearance or anything else. But the main thing that impressed me most about him was his immaturity. He acted like a fellow who is in his teens, who was reacting against everything in the world and never settled down, and acted like this minor revolution which occurs in most people, of being against authority and so forth, and wanted to travel over the world and do things himself. He is sort of a revolution inside of him. It never stops. He was sort of a rebel.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he really had somewhat adolescent tendencies and had never grown up?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say that he was very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In your time and my time, we talked about "Joe College." Is that expression familiar to you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he that kind of a person, breezy?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; very much so. Very outspoken. His language sometimes wasn't very nice. He said anything he wanted to say.
Mr. JENNER. Was he, in his conversation, somewhat of a braggart?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. Talked about himself a great deal and what his accomplishments were and so forth?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he did. He was somewhat of a braggart. He did, like many, many people, he embroidered things. I had the feeling one could never place full stock in exactly all the things he said. He was like a lot of people, he embroidered things. Not so much a braggart exactly as just one who just talked a lot about everything. I think, yes; he was sort of a braggart in a way.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say were his attitudes and his relationships, first, with the male sex, and second with the ladies?
Mr. GLOVER. Female sex?
Mr. JENNER. Overall attitude.
Mr. GLOVER. His overall attitude, one of his preoccupations was sex, seemingly, the female sex. He used to talk about every female he saw go by. He would ride along in his car and blow the horn at any female he saw going down the street. And his attitude toward males, as far as I know, there was no particular, nothing particular to be said on that subject.
Mr. JENNER. But he showed considerable interest in ladies?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he showed a very, very great interest in them, sort of a preoccupation thing with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seem to ingratiate himself with ladies when he was in their presence?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was even somewhat rougher than that. He would act very, very aggressive toward them, very aggressive toward them. I don't know whether his bite was as bad as his bark. I never saw any evidence of it, but he was very, very rough and aggressive with people.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me your present overall impression of George De Mohrenschildt insofar as character and integrity are concerned?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he was a man who obviously very much embroidered things he said. And also from his political opinions, which he gave out from time to time, didn't show very clearly where he stood.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you give the circumstances and your---first give in the sense of, first, I mean political in the sense of the views he entertained with respect to governments in general, and in particular, I mean as against any political party.
Mr. GLOVER Well, he said--the main thing there is his cynical attitude towards things. I don't think he respected any kind of authority. I think that he is sort of apolitical. He sort of resented having to conform very much. But his political views, as far as our system versus communism, for
instance, it wasn't very clear how he stood. He made remarks which suggested that he didn't like, the way the Communists were treated. Very pointed remarks, sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't like the way the Communists were treated?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he didn't like the treatment that some Communists were given. I can give you an example.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in this country or in the Soviet Union?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I was thinking of outside this country.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GLOVER. So I would say that the whole question----
Mr. JENNER. What did he say in that respect which gave you that impression?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I remember that at the time of Castro and Cuba, when the incident occurred of removing the Russian missiles----
Mr. JENNER. Missile sites?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he was very much upset about this and he was very angry at Kennedy for doing what he did.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say, as best you can give us in substance? I know you can't remember the words, but in substance, what he said.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the substance of what he said, he didn't like what Kennedy was doing at all. And the reason he gave, as far as I can remember, was the possible involvement in a nuclear war.
Mr. JENNER. You seek to imply that De Mohrenschildt was opposed to what Kennedy was doing, not because of dislike for Castro, but rather that he feared we would be, those actions might involve us in a nuclear war?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in this particular point, yes. He also remarked which shows that he had sympathy with Castro---it is not possible for me to separate those exactly, but in this particular thing, I remember one time being very, very excited about the missile business in Cuba, and this business came up that that would lead us into a nuclear war. In other words, he was suggesting that he was sympathetic with Castro, at least I thought so--well, Castro is all right, he can't do say harm, he is just a little guy, and this is the general impression I got. Again, those may not be the exact expressions that he may have used.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me an example that he was sympathetic with what Castro represented?
Mr. GLOVER. He certainly never, in my acquaintance with him, tried to make out a case for the Communist system against our system. It was just sort of his shouting off about this thing I just described. And also I remember one very distinctly, which I told the FBI. One time there was a cartoon in the newspaper which pictured Khrushchev with the face of a pig, a caricature, and George was very, very indignant about them doing that. And I said to George, well, he does look like a pig. And after all, the caricature has been around since the days of the famous Frenchman----
Mr. JENNER. Lautrec?
Mr. GLOVER. No; it isn't Lautrec. It's Daumier. I don't know, but that is what I was thinking, and he does look like one. And so he showed on this point that he resented something very much about this.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever get into any political discussions with De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. There is not very much I remember, because as I say, there was never any real discussion about such issues, that amounted to anything, but there were occasions when he seemed to agree to what I consider a reasonable view.
For instance, things in Russia at the present time. I recall one instance once before that there was a discussion--whether it came from a remark of a public figure in the press or somebody else who may have been present, but there was a discussion about the fact that under the Khrushchev regime things had loosened up somewhat in Russia. Whoever was responsible for it, I think it was a public figure at the time who was talking, said that it was very true, things had loosened up in Russia, but how does the Russian feel about this. The answer was that the Russians didn't feel that it is necessarily going to stay that way very long. I remember talking about this in the presence of George and he seemed to be quite agreeable on this idea.
Mr. JENNER. When is the last time you saw De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. I saw him sometime in the early part of May, I believe. I moved into my house at 5723 Southwestern about the 20th of April, and I had taken all his furniture which he had, looking for a place to store, and we three fellows were needing furniture, because I sent all my furniture to my former wife, all the good furniture, so he was going to let us use the furniture for as long as we wanted, to save him storage fees and help us out. We moved it over, and then he finally, on leaving to go to Haiti, before he was going, he dropped by the house sometime in the day he departed, I think it was in the last few days of May, first week or two----
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. GLOVER 1963, right. He came by the house looking for something which had been stored in some of the boxes, and they were loaded with their trailer and cargo to load on the boat in Florida where they going to take off from.
They were sending goods by boat and flying themselves.
Mr. JENNER. That's the last time you have seen him?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the last time I have seen him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you heard from him at any time?
Mr. GLOVER. Have I heard from him?
Mr. JENNER. What has been the extent of that contact, first?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, he wrote to me and his wife wrote to me telling about how things were going in Haiti, and I have replied very little to him. I have replied, I don't know how many times, maybe once when they first went down there, and I replied after January 1, when I moved. I shipped most of his furniture to a storage, keeping some back that I can still use in the new house, and I wrote to him telling him, I told him I didn't need the furniture, and I haven't corresponded with him very much.
Mr. JENNER. In that correspondence he--has given you any information as to what they are doing in Haiti? Did you have any information before they left for Haiti as to what they were, or thought they were, going to do?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I have the information from talking very much about his Haiti venture, and the impression I got was somewhat hazy, but the first part was that he was going to be doing a geological survey for chemicals and minerals.
Mr. JENNER. For what?
Mr. GLOVER. Minerals of economic value.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate the group or company for which he was to do this work, or was it independent?
Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that he was the one who was running the show himself, but he was associated with some other businessman that was connected with it, that besides this initial venture of doing this chemical survey, they were also going to do other things and set up business ventures. That is what the other part involved, and I had the impression that this all tied together.
Mr. JENNER. This was in the nature, as near as you can recall, of a joint venture of some kind?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; except he gave me the impression that he was really running the show, and I also had the impression, which he didn't emphasize, but that someone else was providing the money if there was any money needed.
Mr. JENNER. Give us your knowledge and also your impression of the De Mohrenschildt's financial status when they resided here in Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that they didn't have very much money, because he had been away, and the time he came back, the oil consulting business had gone down pretty much. This was about the time when the companies were reorganizing and they were tightening their belts, and it just wasn't such good times, and he apparently had trouble in getting any oil consultant jobs. This was the impression I got from him and he didn't do very much, except I got the impression that he might have owned some leases, and he----
Mr. JENNER. Oil leases?
Mr. GLOVER. Oil leases. And he talked about one particular one where there was litigation about it. And I got the impression that he didn't have very
much money, except possibly some money coming in from the oil leases and they didn't have lots of food. They didn't have anything but very simple food, simple clothes. They hadn't bought anything new. They had clothes from time before, which were quite expensive, but they did, however, have a nice car. But they didn't spend a lot of money and didn't seem to have a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say they attempted to live frugally?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say they attempted to live frugally.
Mr. JENNER. Speaking there about attire, in this connection, as evidence of their financial status or condition, do you recall mentioning to the FBI their tennis clothing and from time to time other clothing was quite informal, even to the extent of not being appropriate?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt used to wear a bathing suit all the time when she was playing tennis, one piece bathing suit, in which the lower half was sort of Bikini like. And George just wore a pair of shorts. That is accepted attire for a man tennis player. We used to go to the Dallas Athletic Country Club east of the city to play, sometimes, because Sam Ballen had a membership, and she was told it is against the rules to appear on the courts with a bathing suit.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about Sam Ballen. Who is he?
Mr. GLOVER. Sam Ballen, I met him in the way I told you, and he told me that he had been in the stock market business in New York, and came here to organize a company which deals in cataloging, and has a library for oil well logs. These are the records of the physical measurements made in the oil well, and apparently was very successful in doing this. I have known him for the past 2 years--I met him actually when I told you; at Lauriston Marshall's house sometime in 1962, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Is Ballen a friend of Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. GLOVER. Ballen is a friend of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they were closely acquainted?
Mr. GLOVER. Fairly well, yes; closely acquainted.
Mr. JENNER. Did you play tennis together with Mr. Ballen and the De Mohrenschildts on more than one occasion? Did you continue to have this acquaintanceship subsequent to that first occasion about which you have testified?
Mr. GLOVER. Very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions thereafter--social events, parties, visits in the home, and what not, that Sam Ballen participated?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were occasions, although the main association was that we played tennis together. We made a very good team. We have about the same degree of skill at it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does he reside here in Dallas?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he does.
Mr. JENNER. He still stays--lives here?
Mr. GLOVER. As far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of a company with which he is associated?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not know the name offhand.
Mr. JENNER. And that his name is spelled B-a-l-l-e-n, and his first name is Samuel?
Mr. GLOVER. I just call him Sam. I don't know whether his name is Samuel or not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about the De Mohrenschildts' views toward religion?
Mr. GLOVER. They are very much against religion, I am quite sure. They don't think very much of organized religion at all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information more definite than that? Are they atheistic, are they just--don't have any feeling one way or the other?
Mr. GLOVER. Be hard for me to say. I would think probably that atheistic would be more the correct term, but I don't recall specific remarks that they made.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression, and do you now, as to any political affiliation of the De Mohrenschildts together or separate?
Mr. GLOVER. Any kind of affiliation?
Mr. JENNER. Political or otherwise.
Mr. GLOVER. Political or otherwise. Well, business, he belongs to the Petroleum Club. He talks about being down there. And I don't know of any other organizations.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. GLOVER. Well, cystic fibrosis, they are very active in that, because of his son.
Mr. JENNER. That is a charity organization?
Mr. GLOVER. A charity organization. And they were very active in this, because the wife, although it was not her son involved, was very, very active in that and went from door to door collecting, trying to get money for this purpose. I don't know of any other organizations. I remember one time being invited to some kind of charity program over at the--I don't know how to call it any more, but there is a center for retarded children over in the Cedar Springs area, which it seems that a Mexican-American organization was sponsoring, and he invited me to go to that. I don't know if they were members or not. I think that was sort of a Mexican-American, I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression they ever belonged to any political organizations?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not have any impression that he belonged to any.
Mr. JENNER. Did they express what their politics were? That is, say, as between being Republican or Democrat?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall anything very strong on that subject.
Mr. JENNER. Did you, during your time here in Dallas, become acquainted with Marina and Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state when it was that you first became acquainted with either or both of them.
Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to give a specific time. I met Marina first at the home of George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give me the circumstances and when that occurred and what led up to it, and what you knew in advance before the meeting was held, about that? That is, whether this came all of a sudden without any advance notice, or whether there had been some discussion with the De Mohrenschildts prior to that time. Just tell me the whole circumstances leading up to the moment you met Marina.
Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to state a specific time, but of course it was somewhere, I am not really able to say whether it was sometime in December, or in January, or sometime in that time, or in the first part.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. GLOVER. This would be the year 1962-63.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you fix it with respect to when your wife and you separated. Was that in December of 1962, did you say?
Mr. GLOVER. No, we separated before September 1, 1962. I am not able to say when she (Marina) came to the De Mohrenschildts. Marina came to the De Mohrenschildts several times. The first time I met her and subsequent times, she was also there.
Mr. JENNER. Had there been--has there been any conversation about the Oswalds with you or in your presence prior to the time that you met Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure about this, but I would think, yes; they had mentioned her.
Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts had mentioned her?
Mr. GLOVER. Had mentioned her and her husband and their situation, but I really do not know a hundred percent that they mentioned it before I came over there. I rather think they mentioned she was coming there previous to my meeting her.
Mr. JENNER. What did they say about her in advance of the meeting?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, they told about, this is as far as I remember, that they told about her coming over here with Oswald and, as far as I remember the impression I got from De Mohrenschildt--it might not have been entirely from him, it may have come later--Oswald had gone to Russia to live and had become a citizen. That is the impression I got. And that he had decided he didn't like Russia and he came back here and brought his Russian-born wife with him,
and were living in Fort Worth, and they were having trouble getting along, the Oswalds were.
Mr. JENNER. Getting along with each other?
Mr. GLOVER. Getting along with each other.
Mr. JENNER. You remember that distinctly?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I remember that very distinctly, because they were trying to find a place for Marina to stay.
Mr. JENNER. You learned all this through conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And either or both of them told you that the Oswalds were not getting along?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that they were seeking what for them?
Mr. GLOVER. They were seeking a place particularly for Marina to stay. She had a baby. And seeking a place for her to stay where she could just get a living, because apparently her husband didn't get along with her, Lee Oswald didn't get along, and I am not sure whether he had lost his job or something. It was suggested it was financial difficulties, the main thing, they didn't get along, and were trying to find a place for her where she could live.
Mr. JENNER. Did either of the De Mohrenschildts speak Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. So far as I know, both of them spoke Russian.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; spoke Russian, what I assumed to be Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What is your command, if any, of the Russian language?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know "Da," but I know very little about it. I have started to study Russian in connection with scientific work, because it is very valuable to be able to speak Russian, and I have always wanted to learn to speak Russian, but somehow I never got to do this. It is very slight, actually, and they both, as far as I know, spoke Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Now tell us what the occasion was, how it came about that you met Marina on this first occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure again as to all the details, but I believe that it was this way. That they told about her and that, I came over there one night when she was there. I might have been invited to dinner when she was there, or I might have just come over when she was there, and they called me during the day and said, "Glover, come over and meet this woman."
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that either George or Jeanne called you and asked you to come over to their home to meet Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am quite sure that he invited me to come over there, because that is usually the way. They were always inviting me to come over.
Mr. JENNER. And your impression, this was an evening or during the daytime?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I couldn't be sure, because she would sometimes come and stay for a day. It might be in the evening or it might have been on a weekend during the daytime. My impression was, it was in the evening.
Mr. JENNER. But your impression also was that this time that she had been invited by them on occasions prior to this particular one?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure whether they had invited her prior or not.
Mr. JENNER. I'm just asking you what your impression was at that time.
Mr. GLOVER. At that time that I first saw her?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to whether she had been there to visit the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. GLOVER. My impression was that she probably had, but I really couldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Anything said that evening indicating how she had reached the De Mohrenschildt's home?
Mr. GLOVER. You mean just physically brought there?
Mr. JENNER. Had they, the De Mohrenschildts gone to pick her up? Had she gotten there by bus herself? Had she gotton a cab, or how did she get there?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember specifically how she had been brought there.
Mr. JENNER. That subject was not raised so as to give you the impression one way or the other, is that correct?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, since she didn't have any means of going herself, I am sure, whether she came by bus or whether she was brought by them, I had the impression that she was living in Fort Worth at the time, and I know she was, because at one time, either this time or another time, I volunteered, since I had a car, to take her down to the bus station with the De Mohrenschildts to take her on her way back to Fort Worth, and the bus wasn't leaving right away, and there was a long wait, so we took her over to Fort Worth. But I am not sure whether that was this time or another time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then in that connection that there were occasions when she had come or gone back by way of bus, or that she was capable of doing so?
Mr. GLOVER. That she was capable, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she knew enough about bus travel between Fort Worth and Dallas and the location of the De Mohrenschildt home so that she, unaccompanied by someone, could travel back and forth?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, at least go to the Fort Worth bus. I'm not sure about whether they would pick her up or what. That is the impression I got from the fact we took her to the bus station and she was supposed to leave by bus.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present? Yourself, Marina, and the two De Mohrenschildts on this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you can recall?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so, but I could not be a hundred percent sure. I believe that is the way it was.
Mr. JENNER. Have the De Mohrenschildts said anything to you about how they had become acquainted with the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. They had not said anything specifically, but again, I had the impression that because they were Russian speaking and knew some of the other people around the area who were Russian speaking, they learned from people they knew in Fort Worth of this Russian girl who was here in this country.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did they say about their interest in her beyond, let's say, pure curiosity?
Mr. GLOVER. That is really the extent of what they ever said, that they were curious, and also trying to help her out. This was right in character with Jeanne, who was always trying to help people out in such situations.
Mr. JENNER. Was she a generous person in that respect?
Mr. GLOVER. I think you would call it generous although you have to realize this is a double-edged sword. People sometimes do things in order to control things and arrange things, and other times they do things out of the goodness of their heart, and I think it was one of the facts, she liked to help people out, and arrange things. Maybe this is my male bias coming into it.
Mr. JENNER. But in any event, they were, on the surface at least, cordial, and seeking to help her?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you detect that that was an active and not merely a passive effort on their part?
Mr. CLOVER. Yes; I felt it was an active thing.
Mr. JENNER. They were pursuing it with some vigor?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take George in particular. Was it characteristic of him? Was he a generous man and wanted to help others?
Mr. GLOVER. Much less so, I would say, than Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I rather would attribute it to her. Maybe it is my male bias coming out, blaming it on Jeanne for being so interested in somebody else, but he went along with this too, and there were several other people I met there who they were trying to be good to. I think they were trying to do this to help. And shortly after my former wife left and I was by myself, I think they, in their relation to me, were trying to do something to help me out.
Mr. JENNER. You met her on this occasion. How many additional occasions were there?
Mr. GLOVER I can't be sure of the number of occasions, because she came several times to the De Mohrenschildt house.
Mr. JENNER. Alone?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she came several times alone, and I would say two or three times I saw her there.
Mr. JENNER. And each occasion you saw her on these two or three or even more occasions, she was always alone in the sense that she was not accompanied on any of those occasions by Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What was the length of this visit that you had on the first occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not really sure of the time, but the .impression I had, it was in the evening, and again I am not sure which one of the times, but the impression I had, it was in the evening that I was over there, either to eat, and she left quite early in the evening. Well, we took, maybe, or she was taken by them, but one time she left around 9 o'clock or something like this, to get a bus to Fort Worth. Whether this was the first time, I really can't be sure.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she and her husband were living together at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was my impression. I am not really sure now whether anything was said to the contrary on that or not. My .impression was that she was living with her husband on this first occasion, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise when you were advised or had the impression that she was not then at that period of time living with her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I think this is subsequent to this first time I met her. Whatever those occasions were, they had arranged for her to stay with someone here in the Dallas area.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know the name?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not remember the name of the people, but they had arranged for her to stay here, and she had stayed for, as I recall, a fairly short time, that the arrangement did not work out.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name Elena Hall trigger your recollection?
Mr. GLOVER. Elena Hall?
Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall ever having heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r?
Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be very sure about that. They might have mentioned a name, but I do not recall. They mentioned the names of quite a number of people to me, and I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Marina on this first occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, my first impression was she was sort of an innocent person caught up in the situation. Although I have very little to go on, and I could not communicate with her, only through the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Did she speak any English on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. She spoke practically none. No English. She understood a little bit that people said in English.
Mr. JENNER. But she did not speak it?
Mr. GLOVER. She couldn't speak English. It was very difficult for me to get any real good impression from her.
Mr. JENNER. And she was quite young?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she was quite young.
Mr. JENNER. Let's say this is February of 1963, did you say that was, or March?
Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime in the first part of the year.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was probably in January. That would be my best recollection. It was during that time. It might have been later than that. I am hazy. The only thing I have to go by is, I learned later after discussion of the visit of Oswald and his wife to our house, I learned pretty much from the conversation that that meeting took place in the latter part of February.
Now I did not recall, I just talked with the other people who lived in the house, and we figured it must have been about that time. And other people present recalled this, so this is how I figured the whole business. And I know I met Marina previous to that time.
I know I was away for a week in February when I went on a business trip to Pennsylvania, and so I assume it was somewhere in January, but I really do not remember.
Again, if I had to recall those events, I might be able to. I can remember some of the events, but I am not very sure about it.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you meet Marina after this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, again, I am not sure at all about those occasions. She would come and stay at the house, and if I came in from playing tennis with George, she might have been there. This may have happened two or three times.
Mr. JENNER. There came an occasion, did there not, in which you met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; when I met Lee Oswald the first time, was at their house.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany the De Mohrenschildts on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. When was that and how did that arise, and what was the circumstance?
Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I can remember about this, is again to fix this with respect to the other meeting when he and his wife, Oswald and his wife, came to my house, and that was apparently in late February, so it must have been previous to that.
Mr. JENNER. Does the date February 22, 1963, refresh your recollection as to the occasion they came to your home?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think I remember in the conversation with the FBI they mentioned a date about Washington's Birthday.
Mr. JENNER. It is not Lincoln's?
Mr. GLOVER. I think it was Washington's Birthday, but I don't remember dates, so I had no actual recollection of the specific date.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is Washington's Birthday. [Checking calendar.]
Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I have a hazy recollection about, that it was on a Tuesday or Wednesday of the week.
Mr. JENNER. Washington's Birthday in 1963, was on a Friday.
Mr. GLOVER. Maybe it was. My recollection isn't worth much on this.
Mr. JENNER. It was the latter part of February, in any event, of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. The meeting at which I first met Oswald was just previous to the meeting where I met Oswald and his wife the second time.
Mr. JENNER. There were two occasions when you met Oswald and his wife?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right The first one was at the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, we have one meeting described which you set in the early part of the year, Marina alone. That is, she was unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There might have been some additional occasions when you saw her at the De Mohrenschildts prior to your having met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now what was the circumstance under which you had your first meeting or first occasion that you met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. On that occasion the De Mohrenschildts invited the two Oswalds and invited quite a number of other people I was included--to their house.
Mr. JENNER. About when was this?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, this was just previous to the time that Oswald and his wife came to my house, so I would say it was just a few days or a week before that.
Mr. JENNER. At the De Mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. This is where I have difficulty in recollection. Several times the De Mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner, when he had informal dinners, and I am not really sure at all who was present I am
sure that De Mohrenschildt and his wife, Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and myself, and Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. He was then living with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Living with me. He was there. And of the other people, I have just a poor impression as to whether
Mr. JENNER. What about Pierce?
Mr. GLOVER. Pierce was not there, I know that.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there anybody by the name of Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. He was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. You are talking about the first meeting? I know Fredricksen. He had his office next to me at the laboratory. He works also at the laboratory, so I know him quite well. He was not there.
Mr. JENNER. You have exhausted your recollection now? There were additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their names?
Mr. GLOVER. I can recall names of people who might have been there, and I certainly wouldn't swear to it, because I really don't remember that well.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a large party?
Mr. GLOVER. There were quite a number of people for the small apartment. There may have been five or six, seven or eight more people.
Mr. JENNER. There may have been five or six or seven or eight more people in addition to these you have named?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Now I have an impression, and I may be completely wrong, that a man by the name of Richmond was there.
Mr. JENNER. Richmond?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure how you'd spell his name. I know they called him High Richmond, and he works at the, they call it SCAS, which is Southwest Center for Advanced Studies. He has taught physics at SMU. He may have been there. I do not know for sure. Sam Ballen might have been there, I don't know. I am not clear at all who might have been there.
Mr. JENNER. All right, this was a dinner party or an evening party?
Mr. GLOVER. Sort of a dinner.
Mr. JENNER. What did the Oswalds look like and what was your impression of Lee Oswald? Tell me how the Oswalds were generally attired? Did anything impress you?
Mr. GLOVER. Not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of things. I got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly well attired. As I remember, Oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair of pants. He wasn't dressed up at all. Some of the other people were dressed up.
Mr. JENNER. Even though this was in February 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't know. I got the impression that he was informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was also. That is the impression I got. Maybe she was dressed up more. Again, only impression I have is the informality of it as opposed to some of the other people who would be wearing suits. I can't remember what I was wearing at that time myself. I have the impression that they were different people than a lot of other people.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be true of each of them?
Mr. GLOVER. About her, I don't know. It is hard to say. I don't remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little girl with a baby over on the bed sofa.
Mr. JENNER. She brought the child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure; yes. Now again, I believe so, but again, I am not a hundred percent sure.
Mr. JENNER. On this previous occasion had she brought her child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe she always had her child with her.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had the child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred that evening in the way of discussion?
Mr. GLOVER. This evening several people talked to Oswald. I talked very little.
Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. No I don't remember whether there was any conversation in Russian or not. I really didn't talk hardly any to the Oswalds, any myself that evening. I know I remember that Volkmar Schmidt talked with him considerably, but he did not talk in Russian. Volkmar talked English.
Mr. JENNER. Does Volkmar Schmidt have command of the Russian language?
Mr. GLOVER. He has no command of Russian, although Norman Fredricksen and Pierce and Volkmar all had started to study Russian. There was a course at the school. I believe there was a course at the laboratory, a private teacher was giving classes. They all three started to take, but Volkmar and Pierce stopped, and Fredricksen was the only one who continued.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Voshinin familiar to you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he the instructor or the tutor for Fredricksen and Pierce?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so. I don't think that is the---I am quite sure that is not the same person at all. The facts I have about the teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in Dallas who taught classes on the side. Maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was teaching on the side.
Mr. JENNER. Voshinin worked for Sun, did he not?
Mr. GLOVER. Not the Voshinin that I know. I know one Voshinin, and he is teaching in the Chemical Engineering School of SMU. And his wife does translating. Now I don't know of any other Voshinin. I don't recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but Fredricksen ended up by taking Russian lessons from an older woman who, I think, was related to a woman who---I beg your pardon, Fredricksen took lessons later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name I do not remember.
Mr. JENNER. His mother-in-law? Voshinin's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr. GLOVER. She had some kind of a name she was known by. I am quite sure I can't remember whether it was Voshinin--it is not the Voshinin that teaches at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. It is a different one?
Mr. GLOVER. The only Voshinin I know is the man that teaches at SMU.
Mr. JENNER Does anything stand out in your mind on this initial meeting which you met Lee Oswald? And if so, would you please state it.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the story from the beginning that the De Mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, I didn't talk very much to him--was a perplexing business to me.
In the first place, when he [De Mohrenschildt] told the story, I didn't believe it was possible for any one to go to Russia and work as he did and come back to this country. I doubted it was quite possible. And I mentioned this fact to some of the people I worked with. One fellow was particularly anti-Russian in every way, and he thought this easily possible for a person to do this, that this made sense.
In other words, that I was dubious of the story from the beginning. The thing that I kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where I made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what he said and brought a Russian wife here, that certainly would be known by the authorities, the FBI particularly, and that if a person like he were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he would be someone who is known very well by the FBI people. I told the FBI about this, and I also told them what De Mohrenschildt had written to me quite recently.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. GLOVER. De Mohrenschildt told me in a letter that Oswald had been checked by the FBI----
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?
Mr. GLOVER. I gave it to the FBI. They have the letter. He stated in the letter that he had asked the FBI about this man, and I don't remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter, but words to the effect
that they passed on him, or he was harmless, or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from their point of view.
Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made an inquiry of the FBI and the FBI reassured him?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald was all right?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want you to, by your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not in my words.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I did get the impression from what I recall of his letter, that he had checked with the FBI, and I remember he stated specifically in the letter, either in Fort Worth or Dallas, about Oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was acceptable. They passed on him in some way. I don't remember the exact way he put it. It is in the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with De Mohrenschildt on that subject on or about the time of your meeting the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. When I got this letter, it reminded me that at one time when they were first talking about putting Marina somewhere, getting her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect, that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he checked with the FBI and they were all right, or words to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. You used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently you made a mistake. Do you recall that?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In this connection, what do you mean by that?
Mr. GLOVER. I referred directly to one thing, I made the mistake of assuming that a man in his situation---of assuming that, because this man had the history of having been in Russia, apparently, and had brought his Russian wife with him, and so forth, that the FBI would know all about it, and although I was very much perplexed by him, I felt that he must be not a dangerous person. I don't think the FBI thought he was as dangerous as he was, and I think I made a mistake when I assumed that they could know that he was harmless. I assumed that the FBI would know about such a person, and in having this conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the FBI prior to November 22, 1963, concerning the Oswalds, or either of them?
Mr. GLOVER I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did they--they didn't interview you, and you made no calls or had any contact with them?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald on this first occasion that you met him?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get too much of an impression. I didn't really talk to him very much.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression of him being a man of education, or lack of it?
Mr. GLOVER. I certainly got the impression that he was someone who had a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life.
Mr. JENNER. Very much in his life in the way of material things?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER, Or very much in the way of an education?
Mr. GLOVER. Material, educational, and spiritual.
Mr. JENNER. Spiritual or education or material?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got, but it's hard to put that down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. My impression does not come very much from the first meeting where I did not talk to him very much. Subsequently talking with Schmidt and the subsequent meeting at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from that total rather than any detailed thing he said.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what your impression
of Oswald was? Let's say, as of November 21, 1963? I am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but I am trying to fix a cutoff period.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I came to the conclusion that he was, in the first place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. He was not satisfied with what was in this country originally. He was not satisfied with the life in Russia. And he was not adjusting at all when he came back, so he was very maladjusted.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression that, or did you have the impression that he was generally a maladjusted person?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, certainly from his whole situation I would conclude that he was maladjusted. In the course of fitting into a social and political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then that he was not a person of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you moved?
Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes; I had the impression that he did not have a capacity to do that. My best word to describe him, my own personal word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. He did not adjust anywhere. He obviously didn't get along with his wife. He was very----
Mr. JENNER. Was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in her presence?
Mr. GLOVER. No; it was not obvious. This was only obvious from the description the De Mohrenschildts gave, but I still think this is a very important thing. I don't judge another person by the detailed things he says. I judge a person by the whole style of his life. This includes his relationship to other people, like his wife.
Mr. JENNER. I agree. The reason I pressed you again there was to bring out whether you were relying entirely on what the De Mohrenschildts said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the Oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived in regard to that.
They had views towards the Oswalds, and when I say community, I mean a circle of people.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I have to admit that I have no direct evidence of the two Oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the De Mohrenschildts, and I don't know whether by anyone else, that they didn't get along. And that fact also, along with this, would fit into the picture, as I learned later, he lost his job here in Dallas. And he had apparently lost his job in Fort Worth, and this added to the picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust And such people who cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife.
This is the inference I gave, and the only evidence I have is what De Mohrenschildt told me about that. I cannot say that I observed the Oswalds being antagonistic to each other.
Mr. JENNER. Now this first occasion the was an evening at the De Mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior notice, that the Oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and met them?
Mr. GLOVER. No.
Mr. JENNER. You knew in advance?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe they said when they called that these people were going to be there. I don't know how much notice they gave.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything about which you haven't testified that struck you about the Oswalds on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER Did he speak Russian during the course of the evening?
Mr. GLOVER. I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Or at least a language that was not English?
Mr. GLOVER. I really couldn't be sure on that point.
Mr. JENNER. Did she take part in the conversation to any extent?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she never did take part in the conversation very much.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last occasion you saw the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. This, as I said before, was a few days to a week, I believe, after the time I saw them at the De Mohrenschildts'.
Mr. JENNER. Was that at your home?
Mr. GLOVER. That was at my home.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a visit or an assembly that you organized?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was the prime mover in organizing it.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing, and who was there.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get a very good impression of Oswald this first time, because I didn't talk with him. But I talked with Volkmar Schmidt, and we talked with Dick Pierce, who was living with us, and we talked about it. I asked Dick if he would like to meet this fellow, like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an unbelievable story that this could happen. It was unknown as far as my experience is concerned. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had been pushing the fact that Marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also said that Lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn English.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I would like a little more development of that. Who made the statement to you?
Mr. GLOVER. One of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. One of the De Mohrenschildts? This was not merely an idle remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it several times?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In talking to you about the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. They did say collectively I mean--they did say affirmatively that one of the problems was that Lee Oswald was adverse to his wife Marina, learning the English language, or to use the English language?
Mr. GLOVER. Certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her.
Mr. JENNER. All right, okay, go ahead about your party now.
Mr. GLOVER. It so happened at this time that Ruth Paine, who is an acquaintance of mine----
Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with Ruth Paine?
Mr. GLOVER. I became acquainted with Ruth Paine either through the Unitarian Church here in Dallas, or through a singing group which had members in it, from the Unitarian Church, I am not sure which. As I remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after '56, I think, '56 to '58 in there, I was more active. I had joined the Unitarian Church sometime after coming to Dallas, and I used to sing some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more than I did. Sometime during that period Michael Paine came to sing with the Unitarian Church. It seems he had been trying out various choirs around the town.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him prior to this time?
Mr. GLOVER. I had not and I don't think his wife came there much to the church. I am not sure whether she ever came to the church. I believe she is a Quaker, and I think she came very little to the church. Maybe she did come and sing in the choir. Subsequently it was, as I remember, it was through him that I met her, and probably at a singing group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the singing group were people who sing in the Unitarian choir.
Mr. JENNER. Was this kind of a madrigal group?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. This was what it was called, depending on the membership at any time. They sing all kinds of things.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead about your party.
Mr. GLOVER. Okay, so I knew at this time I had seen Ruth Paine on a few occasions in the past 6 months or a year, and I must have been talking with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party, at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was going to teach a course in Russian at St. Mark School; and that she was trying to brush up on the Russian, on---or maybe I am just thinking she said this latter. But she was interested, and I didn't really know--I think at that time I was aware of the
fact she had majored in Russian in school, or knew Russian very well, and De Mohrenschildt's wife Jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her, and I thought I would tell Ruth Paine about her, maybe she would be interested in talking with this woman. So I invited her, and she said she would be interested. That is the explanation of how she came.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent that you knew about them at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I am sure I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or knowledge of the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her.
Mr. JENNER. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory, Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come.
Mr. GLOVER. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty MacDonald?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us, that were living together. I am sure he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were separated?
Mr. GLOVER. I was.
Mr. JENNER. As of that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her because of the Russian.
Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he said he would come and he came.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a married man?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him.
I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement.
Mr. JENNER. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as to who attended your party?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I don't call it a party.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop in?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were going somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Did the discussion take place were there any discussions during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his political views?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were discussions.
Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to give an over-all impression I got. This may be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present, but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an over-all impression--he was apparently a Marxist.
Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else present said he was a Marxist--
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any, between Marxism and Communism?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him.
Mr. JENNER. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure up to those theories?
Mr. GLOVER. Apparently so.
Mr. JENNER. His so-called ideals?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, he had--what he had come back to here in America didn't measure up to what he----
Mr. GLOVER. Apparently. He said so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American system measured up to his ideals.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there was considerable.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the thing I remember was that he was working in some kind of a trade. I don't remember what trade he was working at. And I don't remember really too many strong impressions.
The strong impression I got of things that he talked about were the--was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in Russia after she married him. She was apparently looked down on. This was the impression I had from listening to Oswald, either Oswald or conversation with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. That occurred at this meeting at your house?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so, yes.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, how did you get the Oswalds there? Did you call them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? How was that arranged?
Mr. GLOVER. I talked with the De Mohrenschildts as to where they lived. By this time he was living in Dallas. He had gotten a job in Dallas and they were living in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know the name of the company, but I asked them (De Mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone number at the place where he worked. I still have his telephone number and I called him and asked him if he would come over to the house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he would. I believe he gave me the address. It might have been the De Mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. I have that address and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when I was about to throw away the slip of paper on which I accumulated a lot of addresses, I copied it down in my address book. I just in--I just had a feeling I ought to record this.
Mr. JENNER. He lived on Elsbeth Street?
Mr. GLOVER. He lived on Elsbeth, that's right. The only thing I remember about the place at work was that I think he worked in the photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a printing plant. Then I called him and I asked him if he would come over, and he didn't have any transportation, and I offered to come over and pick him up. My wife remembers that I
was down at the ice rink skating. I went down there early and picked him up on the way back home.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the time that you knew Oswald or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an automobile and operate an automobile?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not recall anything said about that.
Mr. JENNER. I ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. Would that be a better description? It was a gathering rather than a party?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful that I shrink away from him. It wasn't a party. It was a gathering for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some other people look at him and see what they made of him, so I call it a gathering.
Mr. JENNER. I think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event. Tell us what he said his life in Russia was like, his views, if he expressed any views, and then I am going to ask you after that your impression of the man.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't really recall anything that he said specifically. Seems like his conversation was of the type where he did not initiate very much himself. He answered questions, and maybe it is partly hindsight, now, I don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the impression that he wasn't very candid at all. He was not the open type of person who one might have hoped for. Maybe it was too much to hope, but I believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something like he did in the direction of Russia, and have realized how wrong it was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their experiences, and of people who have gone in a Communist direction certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it.
And he was certainly not a candid person. I do not remember specifically anything he said. It is hard really to get a very good impression of things. It seems like he was trying to go along with things. He was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was going along with the questioning. That was the impression I got. I remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but I don't remember what it was. I remember his discussion of the--it might have been his wife, I am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to woman ratio in Russia. And I don't know that that occurred that night or sometime previous on another occasion. It might have occurred on another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought out about the uneven ratio, and I got the impression that might have been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone.
An FBI man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of the differences in the age. She is very young, and the people were who were killed off in World War II would be in my generation of 40 or 50 years old and there might not be much competition there. But that was the impression I got. Then there was also something mentioned about the treatment of the Cubans. It seems they lived near a place where there were Cubans.
Mr. JENNER. It seems what?
Mr. GLOVER. It seems they were living at or near a place where Cubans who had been brought from Cuba by the Communist regime were being indoctrinated.
Mr. JENNER. This is while they were in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. This is while they were in Russia, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of some Cubans being in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. I used the words "being indoctrinated," because I assume this is what was going on. I don't think he used that word.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had any contact with them?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing specifically that I remember was said about having actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the treatment. Actual contact, I don't know whether he said that, but it didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they were really treated well.
Mr. JENNER. The Cubans were?
Mr. GLOVER. The Cubans were really treated well and given everything they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the Cubans, as it were, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to Castro and the Cubans?
Mr. GLOVER. I could not remember any specific view about them, but I got the impression from his description of the Cubans who were there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that the Cubans were very much accepted by the Russians. Apparently, in all this conversation, I believe he was being very cagey about making statements, but he would give the impression that these people must have been pretty nice. They were being treated so by the Russians. Actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated very well. I don't remember him having said anything specifically about his liking or not liking the Cubans or Castro.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that occurred that evening with respect to conversation and his political views and life in Russia that you now recall?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't think there is anything that I recall right at the moment.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine take part in these discussions?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she talked to both Oswald and she talked to his wife very much.
Mr. JENNER. When she talked to Marina in what language did she speak?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I believe what she said, she said in Russian. I don't believe Marina was able to converse in English.
Mr. JENNER. Did she translate for Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I believe she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald translate for her?
Mr. GLOVER. Marina, I cannot be sure about that. I don't remember that he did.
Mr. JENNER. This was in a house or in an apartment?
Mr. GLOVER. It was in a house.
Mr. JENNER. Did the women kind of move around and the men gather together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature, were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and interplay?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't remember any particular pattern. The only person who would talk very much to Marina was Ruth Paine, because she was the only woman.
Mr. JENNER. What about the De Mohrenschildts? Did they just drop in and leave right away?
Mr. GLOVER. They stayed a very brief time.
Mr. JENNER. Did the De Mohrenschildts take part? There wasn't anybody other than Mrs. Paine, or possibly Lee Oswald, to translate for Marina, is that a fair statement?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The De Mohrenschildts did not come in at the beginning of the evening. They came sometime, if I remember, around 9 o'clock and stayed a short while and left.
Mr. JENNER. Did your guests press Oswald as to his political views?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he had been in Russia. He didn't think very much of that. He didn't think much of the United States' system, but what it was about the system, he didn't know.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. I think they ascertained that pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. He just reiterated, "I am a Marxist," or "I believe in communism," or I have these ideals, but I haven't found the ideal site anywhere?
So far, that is a fairly general statement?
Mr. GLOVER. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Since I said so much about it, is there anything you want to elaborate on in that connection?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I think what you said I agree to, that he was essentially more on the defensive. They asked him, as I just stated, what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the answer.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to why if you had an impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn English? And if so, what was that impression?
Mr. CLOVER. Well, the impression I had was simply one of maybe wanting to control her, but I did not think of anything beyond the usual situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of the two is much, is very much the dominating person.
Mr. JENNER. Did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple?
Mr. GLOVER. I certainly did, because in the first place, the story I heard was they were trying to find a place for Marina where she could get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so I assumed she was staying with him.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him then and subsequently, as to whether he was a stable person?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly well behaved at the times I saw him. It is true, I did not think he was very candid, but I felt----
Mr. JENNER. You did not think he was very candid?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not think he was very candid, no; but I felt that whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. But I had the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. I did not get the impression, as I stated before, I did not get the impression of him being violent, which later came out, and----
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, I would say from that point of view, he was poorly adjusted. From the point of view, possibly of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had another job--I mean he apparently worked in Fort Worth and then he got a job in Dallas, and after he left here he went to New Orleans and got a job and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that connection, or did you acquire?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. He apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by in spite of his purported Marxism. Apparently the dominating thing in this--in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and I am getting this from what I have read in the newspapers. It is sort of hindsight.
Mr. JENNER. Try to keep that out as much as possible. I am trying to get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would say that I didn't really have any impression of great instability. But I had the impression that he didn't know what he wanted at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was not capable of knowing what he wanted? I don't mean mental operation. I mean a man whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity since, what his regions of reaching and desires were?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would guess, I thought at the time that a person in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he probably never would discover what he was going to live by--of course I didn't keep contact with him after this meeting--and, consequently, had no further chance to observe him.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to talk about that in a moment.
Mr. GLOVER. Okay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his lot
in life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he would rationalize to avoid self-analysis?
Mr. GLOVER. I didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the time. I think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because I think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an interest in him, and I think he ate this up to be questioned about something by somebody who might have some status in society where he didn't have any. But I didn't get the impression that he was terribly bitter about this. I got the impression he was very unsatisfied and unadjusted, maladjusted. He didn't make any adjustment.
Mr. JENNER. During the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you recall, concerning the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about the system not being a satisfactory one.
Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy mentioned?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or supporting any particular political causes?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not say anything about that at all.
Mr. JENNER. You got no impression that evening as to whether he might or could be or was--might be or could be or was a person given to violence?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get the impression that he was given to violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife, apparently, according to the De Mohrenschildts. They led me to think that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say, but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or something like this.
Mr. JENNER. That is the last occasion that you saw the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. Essentially that is the last. I hedge a little bit on this because I faintly recollect that De Mohrenschildt came by the house where I was living once, and he may have had Oswald with him, but it was nothing but a passing meeting. If it existed, I am not quite sure. It was nothing of significance that existed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see or meet, or were you present at any time subsequent to this meeting when Marina was present?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was present at one time. Let's see now, the sequence of events after that were, De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti sometime in early May. I am not really sure whether it is before they left. I guess it might have been before they left, or right after they left. I had a record player which they had loaned me.
Mr. JENNER. From the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. The De Mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when Pierce and Schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (De Mohrenschildts) wanted to give the record player to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had the record player, so one night when Pierce and I were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of Bob Tabbert, who I used to work with, we brought the record player with us and left it off at Marina's place.
Now at that time I knew where they lived, because I picked them up before at Elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, Marina was wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, I don't know the name of the street, I could find it, I'm sure, it was the first----
Mr. JENNER. Neely Street?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember the name. I could find the street, because it was the first street on the left going north on Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, this was an apartment building or home different from the one in which you picked them up in February of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. So I gave her the record player.
Mr. JENNER. Gave it to her?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. That is what De Mohrenschildt asked me to do.
Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald did not appear on the scene at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know he was not there?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I didn't know he was not there; no. Well, I am not sure about that. Seems to me, yes, that I asked if her husband was there, because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over there for sometime when we were going and it had fallen off and had the arm damaged, and I could not converse with her, and I tried to explain, and I asked if her husband was there, and I had the impression he wasn't there, and I am not sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Then what we have referred to was the last contact you had with Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. That was the last time I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine ever talk to you about Marina at any time thereafter?
Mr. GLOVER. The Paines, either one or the other, talked to me after that time. On one occasion I got a call on the telephone, I am not sure whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Paine, in which they said the record player--I believe it was the same one I had given or taken over to her that belonged to the De Mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and that she--first of all, the events after that went like this.
The De Mohrenschildts left and they told me Oswald lost his job and had gone to New Orleans. Then I believe it was only later through the Paines that I learned, I believe it was a telephone conversation, that Marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and also left to go to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. This was in the spring of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime after the first of May. And I think at this time I learned through them that Marina had gone to join him in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Mrs. Paine having taken Marina to New Orleans?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said about her taking her to New Orleans, but I do believe I knew at that time that Marina had stayed with her. I think I learned it through conversation with them. I don't remember having heard from or seen the Paines since the time they were at my house until the time that I have learned Marina had gone to New Orleans and had previously stayed with Ruth. And until the time that Mike came over and delivered the record player. I think Mike was the one who brought the record player, and I don't remember the circumstances on that, but I believe it was he. I am not sure I was home. I am not sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, that letter that De Mohrenschildt wrote you from Haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his remarks about what you have testified:
"It is interesting, but before we began to help Marina and the child, we asked the FBI man in Dallas or in Fort Worth about Lee, and he told us he was completely harmless?"
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he used the word harmless, but I wasn't sure I was quoting what he said.
Mr. JENNER. Are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; so I learned, at the time they brought the record player, that she had gone to New Orleans.
Then the only other connection I had with them was that later than that, and now again I am not quite sure about the date, but it seems it must have been after I was married and I was still living on Southwestern, but I got a call from one of the Paines saying they had records that the De Mohrenschildts had given Marina. These were for Russian speaking people learning English, I believe, that they had, and what to do with them?
And I said, bring them over here and I will store them. And I remember talking, and I remember Michael Paine brought the records over to me and came in the house, and I talked with him a little bit. At this time Michael Paine told me the last information I had about them. He told me that, I am
not sure whether he said they were back, Marina was coming back, or Marina had already come back to Dallas, that Lee had lost his job and that Lee was coming back, and that was in the time I believe----
Mr. JENNER. Was coming back to live or was visiting?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, was coming back. Presumably he lost his job and was coming back here.
Mr. JENNER. Lost his job in New Orleans?
Mr. GLOVER. Right; and he was coming back here to live. That is the last I heard of them until the event of November 22d.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, is there anything Mr. Clover, that has occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy and any of the people about which I have questioned you, and--or anything else that you think might help the Commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths with respect to that tragic event?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't believe there is anything else I have of any value to add.
Mr. JENNER. Now you understand the Rules of the Commission. You may, if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to you next week if you wish to do so. If not, you have the privilege of waiving that right should you so desire. You also have the privilege of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. That is, read and sign it. And you also have the privilege of waving that right. Do you have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment?
Mr. CLOVER. I don't have any reaction. I consider this as, because I don't know very much about the legal aspects, I consider this to be a technicality. Maybe I should ask someone.
Mr. JENNER. Frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you wish to, if you prefer--that you read your deposition over it will be available to you next week, should you so desire.
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I think I would like to read it.
Mr. JENNER. I would think that it would be about Tuesday. If you will call here and ask for me or ask for Mr. Liebeler, your transcript will be available. And if you have any changes or corrections call them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections or additions.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With this I have no further questions. I have only this to say, that I appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent I had to inquire into your personal life, I hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing personal on my part.
Mr. GLOVER. I have something to say also. I think that it is not a question of my doing anyone a favor. I consider it a duty to tell what I know about such a situation.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that is where we are at the moment.