Testimony Of S. M. Holland

The testimony of S. M. Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex, by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. S. M. Holland was accompanied by his attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison.

Mr. STERN - Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HOLLAND - I do.
Mr. STERN - Sit down, please. You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence?
Mr. STERN - Mr. Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission asking you to come and testify today?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - As you know, the Commission is inquiring into all of the facts Concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and we want your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination from the place you were standing. May we have, for the record, your name and residence address?
Mr. HOLLAND - S. M. Holland, 1119 Lucille Street. Irving, Tex.
Mr. STERN - What is your occupation?
Mr. HOLLAND - Signal supervisor for Union Terminal Railroad.
Mr. STERN - How long have you been employed by that organization?
Mr. HOLLAND - Union Terminal since 1938.
Mr. STERN - Now, on Friday, November 22, will you describe what you did. concerning the President's visit and where you were.
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a plainclothesman, came up on top of the triple underpass. and we had some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a parade, and I left my office and walked up to the underpass to talk to the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. That is, the railroad people.
Mr. STERN - Where are your offices, Mr. Holland?
Mr. HOLLAND - At the Union Terminal Station.
Mr. STERN - Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile a very short distance.
Mr. STERN - And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 altogether?
Mr. HOLLAND - Two---there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.
Mr. STERN - You don't know what his affiliation was?
Mr. HOLLAND - I know he was a plainclothes detective, or FBI agent or something like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back and after lunch I would go up there.
Mr. STERN - Approximately what time did you arrive up there?
Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12, and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at the Union Terminal. and department so-and-so.
Mr. STERN - Whom did you see there at 11:45 when you returned, from then until 12:30?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, I would have to try to remember who all was up there then. There was Mr. Reilly and Mr. R. C. Dodd.
Mr. STERN - Mr. Reilly?
Mr. HOLLAND - Reilly.
Mr. STERN - Who was---
Mr. HOLLAND - R. C. Dodd, and N. H. Potter and Luke Winburn.
Mr. STERN - Luke?
Mr. HOLLAND - Winburn.
Mr. STERN - And---
Mr. HOLLAND - And a fellow by the name of Johnson, he works in the car department.
Mr. STERN - Johnson.
Mr. HOLLAND - And there was another fellow who worked at the car department, tall, blond-headed boy, and I can't remember his name.
Mr. STERN - That makes six people so far. Are these all employees of---
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - Of the terminal?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business. Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee, and one was a T. & P. employee.
Mr. STERN - Could you give me their full names?
Mr. HOLLAND - Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad.
Mr. STERN - You don't know the names of those particular men?
Mr. HOLLAND - No; I don't.
Mr. STERN - Did you see them here today?
Mr. HOLLAND - I know the policemen talked to them and got identification from them.
Mr. STERN - Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office just before
Mr. HOLLAND - No; neither one of those.
Mr. STERN - Did you recognize either of those two men?
Mr. HOLLAND - One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver.
Mr. STERN - The electrician, do you know his name?
Mr. HOLLAND - Frank Reilly.
Mr. STERN - There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you.
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I guess-Davey Cowzert was up there, too.
Mr. STERN - But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as being people who were on the overpass that day?
Mr. STERN - All right.
Mr. HOLLAND - There was two people I did recognize and that was the cab-driver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up there with me.
Mr. STERN - You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was on the triple overpass at the time?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else.
Mr. HOLLAND - Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert.
Mr. STERN - Is he also an employee?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; he is.
Mr. STERN - Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time the Presidential motorcade----
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - Came into view?
Mr. HOLLAND - One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me why in the world-he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around the fence to what was happening.
Mr. STERN - Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police officers were on the overpass at the time?
Mr. HOLLAND - There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that time.
Mr. STERN - Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time' the Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following employees of the Terminal Co. yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr.Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other man?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right.
Mr. STERN - So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago, by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I can't remember who it was or their names, because----
Mr. STERN - Before the motorcade started?
Mr. HOLLAND - Before the motorcade started.
Mr. STERN - These were people you recognized as employees?
Mr. HOLLAND - Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I think he was asking for credentials.
Mr. STERN - The uniformed policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep them----
Mr. STERN - Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being terminal or railroad employees?
Mr. HOLLAND - When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose for going up there.
Mr. STERN - So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad employees, or as a policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND - Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a few came up there right in the last moments.
Mr. STERN - There were? Tell us about that.
Mr. HOLLAND - That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their identification, and---<
Mr. STERN - Is this just about the time of the motorcade?
Mr. HOLLAND - Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself.
Mr. STERN - Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the police?
Mr. HOLLAND - He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass.
Mr. STERN - Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman for identification?
Mr. HOLLAND - I think everyone was checked by some person.
Mr. STERN - Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 people.
Mr. STERN - Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it?
Mr. HOLLAND - Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail.
Mr. STERN - Turning right off of Main onto Houston?
Mr. HOLLAND - It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto Houston.
Mr. STERN - At that time will you show me on this drawing where you were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is where you were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass over Elm street?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right.
Mr. STERN - And where, in relation to the concrete fence that----
Mr. HOLLAND - Picket fence or concrete?
Mr. STERN - No; the concrete.
Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, the concrete banister?
Mr. STERN - The concrete banister. Were you right at the banister?
Mr. HOLLAND - I was; would you like to see the exact location?
Mr. STERN - Yes.
Mr. HOLLAND - This is my son standing in the exact location I was in [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Off the record a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN - Back on the record. Well, then, we'll mark this as Exhibit B, reserving Exhibit A for this drawing, and Exhibit B is a photograph you took on Saturday, November 23, of your son standing in the position at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the motorcade came into view.
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right.
Mr. STERN - Fine. That is quite a good picture. At that time, can you indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two police officers who were on the overpass?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me.
Mr. STERN - Put a "2" where you believe he was standing.
Mr. HOLLAND - He was standing in close enough so that he could see, but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think, unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned there, I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Standing almost directly behind you?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't know, but--because I was watching them.
Mr. STERN - Yes. Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people were who were on the Overpass at this time.
Mr. HOLLAND - Well----
Mr. STERN - Were they all standing in one group?
Mr. HOLLAND - There was a pretty close group between this column here, and this place right in there. In other words, if I can--had a shot of it, we could find that pretty close. I don't know that I have one.
Mr. STERN - What you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the overpass from one side of Elm Street to the other.
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; this is one side of Elm Street, and this would be the other. If you would get over here there would be a banister or something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in here, over to right in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - All right. Now----
Mr. HOLLAND - And this bench runs right along similar to that, up here to this [indicating].
Mr. STERN - That is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that runs from the end of the concrete banister?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right.
Mr. STERN - Over to a little----
Mr. HOLLAND - Little house there.
Mr. STERN - Little----
Mr. HOLLAND - What do they call that thing?
Mr. MORRISON - I don't know.
Mr. STERN - Little pavilion? Little concrete pavilion?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge would say they were standing about here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Put No. 4 there, please. Fine.
Mr. HOLLAND - And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the President was waving to the people on this side [indicating].
Mr. STERN - That is the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; On the north side.
Mr. STERN - All right.
Mr. HOLLAND - And she was looking in this direction [indicating].
Mr. STERN - "She," is Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HOLLAND - His wife. And about that time---
Mr. STERN - Was looking in a southern direction?
Mr. HOLLAND - In the southern direction.
Mr. STERN - South side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - And about that time he went over like that [indicating], and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could tell.
Mr. STERN - Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward and raised your right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard.
Mr. STERN - What did it sound like?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?
Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.
Mr. STERN - To his right?
Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over here [indicating]. The girls standing---now one of them was taking a picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she realized what was happening, I guess.
Now, I mean, that was apparently that---she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in---I'd say along in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---
Mr. STERN - Did you hear a third report?
Mr. HOLLAND - I heard a third report and I counted four shots and about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of trees--[indicating].
Mr. STERN - Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - These trees right along here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees you are referring to.
Mr. HOLLAND - Right in there. (Indicating.)
There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.
Mr. STERN - What number would that have been in the----
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, that would--they were so close together.
Mr. STERN - The second and third or the third and fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND - The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.
Mr. STERN - So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND - It could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports.
Mr. STERN - You have no doubt about that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
Mr. STERN - Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of of the FBI several days after?
Mr. HOLLAND - I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.
Mr. STERN - Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at that time?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - You were certain then?
Mr. HOLLAND - I was certain then and I---in that statement I believe that I---
Mr. STERN - Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.
Mr. HOLLAND - At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriffs office, whoever took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of smoke and heard the report from under those trees.
Mr. STERN - Did you realize that these were shots then?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.
Mr. STERN - You did?
Mr. HOLLAND - When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.
Mr. STERN - What did you then do?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well. immediately after the shots was fired, I run around the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone up there behind the fence.
Mr. STERN - That is the picket fence?
Mr. HOLLAND - That is the picket fence.
Mr. STERN - On the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was just a big-it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it, and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to the office and took me back up to the courthouse.
Mr. STERN - Did he know you personally?
Mr. HOLLAND - No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the statement. and made made out the statement before they found out the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that policeman.
I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately after the motorcade had passed through there.
Mr. STERN - What was your impression about the source of these noises, if you had one?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I was.
Mr. STERN - East on Elm?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have the least idea that it was up any higher, hut I thought the shot was coming---coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it sounded like to me from where I was.
Mr. STERN - You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I take it, that the shots were coming from your area?
Mr. STERN - It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far as the sound was concerned?
Mr. HOLLAND - As far as the sound was concerned they did not.
Mr. STERN - Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any way unusual?
Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, no; no.
Mr. STERN - All right. Off the record.
(Off the record.)
Mr. STERN - Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit you made that you described a few moments ago?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right.
Mr. STERN - Would you read that.
Mr. HOLLAND - "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down. in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come back and tell Bill." That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too.
Mr. STERN - I'm sure it was.
Mr. HOLLAND - Stand there and watch two or three men get killed----
Mr. STERN - Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, thought you heard four shots at that time?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - All right.
Mr. HOLLAND - But, two of them was rather close together, though.
Mr. STERN - So close do you think that might have been one shot?
Mr. HOLLAND - No, it was four.
Mr. STERN - You are clear there were four?
Mr. HOLLAND - No; it was different sounds, different reports.
Mr. STERN - All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?
Mr. MORRISON - Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot, I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud upon the bumper of that station wagon.
Mr. STERN - This was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? Well, why don't you put the Number "5" approximately where that car would have been.
Mr. HOLLAND - If we could call this the arcade [indicating]---
Mr. STERN - All right.
Mr. HOLLAND - And one, two, three, I think it would have been just about here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - All right.
Mr. MORRISON - That is Elm Street. It would be behind the fence, wouldn't it?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, I have got the fence running up here, and this car would be back in there [indicating]. This is the trees out here, which would--and that is approximately the same location as---the car and the trees that I saw the smoke would probably be the same location.
Mr. STERN - All right. And this was a station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND - Now, the reason I didn't think so much about that at the time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law enforcement officers and I thought, well, if there is anything to that they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy.
Mr. STERN - Tracks you saw in the mud?
Mr. HOLLAND - It was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted them, I imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one location. It was just----
Mr. STERN - And then you saw some mud on the bumper?
Mr. HOLLAND - Mud on the bumper in two spots.
Mr. STERN - As if someone had cleaned his foot, or---
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on the bumper to see over the fence.
Mr. STERN - I see.
Mr. HOLLAND - Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you could----
Mr. STERN - Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon?
Mr. STERN - Do you recall the----
Mr. HOLLAND - They searched all the cars in that location.
Mr. STERN - Did this occur to you----
Mr. HOLLAND - It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes.
Mr. STERN - And you thought about it later in the day?
Mr. HOLLAND - I thought about it that night.
Mr. STERN - I see.
Mr. HOLLAND - In fact, I went to bed---it was about a week there I couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I have thought about it a lot of times since then.
Mr. STERN - Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND - No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was just a beehive.
Mr. STERN - Yes.
Mr. HOLLAND - In a matter of a few minutes.
Mr. STERN - Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the Dallas Police officers about it?
Mr. HOLLAND - I don't think I did.
Mr. STERN - So, this is really the first time---
Mr. HOLLAND - This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember that, but I don't think I did.
Mr. STERN - I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did.
Mr. MORRISON - You thought the officers there would take care of that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I thought that the officers would take care of it because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went on back to my office.
Mr. STERN - When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?
Mr. HOLLAND - Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.
Mr. STERN - So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - Or, that area?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there then and that is when I walked back to the ear there and noticed the tracks there in one little spot.
Mr. STERN - When you first came around, that was quite soon after the 'shots were fired?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - And did you notice anything about this station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND - I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.
Mr. STERN - In front of the cars---
Mr. HOLLAND - The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.
Mr. STERN - And that was later you came behind the station wagon?
Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.
Mr. STERN - This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are regularly parked?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - A parking area for the School Book Depository?
Mr. HOLLAND - No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and people over to the courthouse. They park in there.
Mr. STERN - I see.
Mr. HOLLAND - Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.
Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.
Mr. STERN - Toward---
Mr. HOLLAND - The location that---
Mr. STERN - Where you saw the puff of smoke?
Mr. HOLLAND - Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.
Mr. STERN - Go ahead. This is at the time of the---
Mr. HOLLAND - At the time of the---
Mr. STERN - That the shots were fired?
Mr. HOLLAND - The shots was fired.
Mr. STERN - Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?
Mr. HOLLAND - In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his---
Mr. STERN - Did you see anything further involving those two?
Mr. HOLLAND - No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the fence.
Mr. STERN - When they were coming up the incline?
Mr. HOLLAND - When that happened.
Mr. STERN - But, nothing further came of that, that you observed?
Mr. STERN - Did you talk to them?
Mr. STERN - Anything else occur to you?
Mr. HOLLAND - No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I am tickled.
Mr. STERN - You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you prefer.
Mr. MORRISON - I prefer that he read it and sign it.
Mr. STERN - Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon as his transcript is ready to read.
Mr. MORRISON - I would like to say---now, you will cooperate with the authorities in any way?
Mr. HOLLAND - I surely will.
Mr. MORRISON - To clear this up?
Mr. HOLLAND - I sure will.
Mr. MORRISON - And you and have---you and I have been close personal friends for over 10 years, haven't we?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's right.
Mr. MORRISON - And you wanted me to come down here because you thought you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less nervous?
Mr. HOLLAND - That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went over to that sheriff's office that afternoon.
Mr. MORRISON - I believe that is all.
Mr. STERN - Thank you.
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