The testimony of Richard Leroy Hulen was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Will you please stand up and be sworn?
Mr. HULEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. HULEN. I do.
Mr. JENNER. State your name, please.
Mr. HULEN. Richard Leroy Hulen.
Mr. JENNER. And you are connected with the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?
Mr. HULEN. I am the associate director of the health club.
Mr. JENNER. And you are appearing in lieu of whom?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. John F. Campbell.
Mr. JENNER. And he is the head of the health club, I take it?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And at present, he is out of the city?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. The YMCA that we are talking about is located where?
Mr. HULEN. At 605 North Ervay in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. We are in the Federal Court House. How far away is that from here?
Mr. HULEN. Two blocks.
Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. Hulen, that I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, that the Commission was authorized pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution 137, as the group to investigate the tragedy of November 22, 1963, of the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, shortly after the adoption of the Senate joint resolution, appointed the Commission and authorized it to proceed and to take testimony and swear witnesses.
We have been engaged in this investigation now for sometime and we are particularly interested in a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our understanding that he was a guest on some occasion at the YMCA that you have identified. Would you describe your duties and those of Mr. Campbell and describe the health club, and I should also add we are interested in a man by the name of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein, and I may ask you some questions about him as well.
Mr. HULEN. Well, of course, Mr. Campbell is in charge of the department. He does the hiring and the firing of the employees, orders supplies and supervises the operation in general and I take my orders from him.
Mr. JENNER. You are his assistant?
Mr. HULEN. I am the assistant.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you been associated with the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Well, since 1945.
Mr. JENNER. And during--you were doing this work at the downtown YMCA?


Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the health club is what sort of activity?
Mr. HULEN. The health club is a businessmen's club. We have seven masseurs, we have a steam bath, we have a dry heat bath, we have ultraviolet lights and infrared lights, bar bell equipment and a lot of gymnasium equipment, such as jumping ropes and bicycles and bar bells and medicine balls and stall bars and check weights and I could go on and on.
Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. You have businessmen who come in, do they join the club or pay a fee?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; we have a yearly membership fee.
Mr. JENNER. If some guest who is a guest of the YMCA, wants to have a rubdown, let us say, or he wants to exercise, is it possible for him to use the facilities of the health club without paying the yearly fee?
Mr. HULEN. Not without paying a fee. He is a member if he lives in the dormitory--he is a member of the YMCA, but not of the health club. So, if he uses our facilities, he pays for them, whatever it might be--ultraviolet; steam bath or massage, and would you want the prices?
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Mr. Davis off the record, pertaining to facilities and services at the YMCA.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. Back on the record. Referring to these yearly members, do you become acquainted with them?
Mr. HULEN. Most of them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted during your history with the YMCA with a man in town here known as Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a member of your club?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. And you have produced here for me a photostatic copy of what is entitled and identified for the record, "Membership application," and, it appears to be on its face a photostatic copy of a membership application for one Jack Ruby. From where did you obtain that exhibit?
Mr. HULEN. From the membership office.
Mr. JENNER. And this card, of which the document I have in my hands is a photostatic copy, is a record which is kept in the usual and regular course of business?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your personal knowledge that this is a photocopy of the original of the membership application and card which is maintained and is presently in the possession of the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to have you explain some of the things here for me--on the form, which has been marked Hulen Exhibit No. 1, under the printed designation, "Firm name," appears as typed, "Club Vegas," sir. Would you explain what that is?
Mr. HULEN. I think if you will look at it a little closer, that is his business address.
Mr. JENNER. That is the business address of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein. Club Vegas is some kind of a club here in Dallas?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, or at least it was at the time this application was made out?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. And is still operating, incidentally.
Mr. JENNER. And it says opposite, "Type of membership,"--there appear two initials, "SH" what do they signify?
Mr. HULEN. Special health.
Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?
Mr. HULEN. That means all of the facilities will be available to that member except the massages.
Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of the card there appears the heading, "Membership account," and then there are columns in which there are long hand entries. These columns are headed, "Date due, amount, payments, card," and some entries. For example, for purposes of explanation, the first entry on the


reverse side on this form I have 'described under "date due,'' appears 9-10-58. I take it that is a date meaning September 10, 1958?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In the next column which is headed "Amount," there appears $65. Then, under "Payments," that column is split in two--the left hand one reads and is headed by the word "Date," and the entry there is 9-2. I assume that is September 2, but no year, and then under the column headed, "Amount," appears $30. Would you explain that type entry?
Mr. HULEN. Well, at the time, in 1958, our membership fee for the special health club membership was $67, and there is a $2 cash saving if a member pays cash, which would indicate that that's where we get our amount $65, and to receive benefit of the cash payment, that is, the interest or penalty, it is supposed to be paid in 30 days, but apparently this wasn't paid in 30 days, but he still received benefit of cash payment.
Mr. JENNER. Does that form indicate that the health fee was paid?
Mr. HULEN. Oh yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. It was paid--on what date?
Mr. HULEN. It was 11-12-62, the last payment. The first payment was made on 9-10-58, wait a minute, I am wrong. It was then when he joined, the first payment was 9-20. In other words, that 9-10 was their billing date and he joined on 9-2 and they billed him on 9-10, and his second payment which was supposed to have been paid in 30 days was paid on 11-12-58. I'm sorry, but I'm not too familiar with this. I'm just groping here myself. This is handled in another office. You will notice that the date due here was 9-10-59, again, you see, and this will denote what happened and his next is--there are several periods that he wasn't active, as you will notice there.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed it. Now, it would appear that the first two columns, the date due and amount represent entries of sums to be paid?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the second set of columns under the heading "Payments," indicates payments that were made?
Mr. HULEN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as to this initial fee, it was due on the 10th of September 1958, in the amount of $65, and then in the next two columns that he paid on September 2, $30, and he paid on November 12, $35 or a total then by that time of $65, that had been billed or was to have been paid by September 10?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He actually completed his payment on November 12?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then, the next entry appears to be one of $65 for the following year, that is for 1959, due on November 1, 1959, and then there is an entry under the "Payments," column of the receipt of $65, on the 22d of October, that is, there was a prepayment there in 1959.
Then, for 1962, the "Due Date," was April 20, 1962--$74. Apparently your fee went up?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And there are entries of two payments, one a $25 on the 18th of April 1962, and the second of $49, on the 3d of August 1962, so he was then paid up?
Mr. HULEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for 1963, there is an entry of a payment due on the 1st of June 1963, of $30 and there is an entry of apparently a prepayment on the 23d of May 1963, of $60.
What does that indicate, that is, here for 1962, he was a $74 member and in 1963, he appears to be only a $30 member?
Mr. HULEN. Oh, I've got it now. If a person for some reason cannot take out the yearly membership and he has been a member in the past, we would let him have a 3-month membership which would explain the $30. At that date he was on the 3-month membership.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. HULEN. A short-term membership, we call it.


Mr. JENNER. At the bottom of this form there is written, "Do not renew," 11-28-63, meaning November 28, 1963. What does that mean?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart, who is our office secretary, laughingly told the stenographer in the membership office that if Ruby ever came back for a membership, not to let him in, not to accept his membership, and she wrote that on there just for her own information. Actually, it was a joke.
Mr. JENNER. If he had returned to renew his membership, the renewal would have been granted him?
Mr. HULEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. It would not have been?
Mr. HULEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mr. HULEN. I don't know, Mr. Urquhart made the statement that it is, it was----
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll try to bring that out, is the entry "Do not renew," of November 28, 1963, is that something in jest?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. In my opinion, I think he was just being facetious.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, Mr. Ruby did not renew his membership?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In 1963?
Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. "J.C.", I assume is John Campbell?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And there appears at the very bottom of the form opposite an asterisk, which in turn refers us to the intial entry fee, there appears in writing, "Wants to pay up in month's time. Okay, J.C." That indicates to me, and would you confirm or correct me that when Ruby joined initially he asked for time to pay up and wanted a month to pay up.
Mr. HULEN. I think that means that if he made the complete payment of the yearly membership in 2 payments within 30 days, that he would receive benefit of the discount.
Mr. JENNER. I see, and the fact is he didn't pay up within 30 days, his payment, first payment was made on the 2d of September of $30, and his second payment of $35, was made on November 12, 1958, so you gave him the benefit of the discount even though he didn't pay up in the 30 days?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; that explains----
Mr. JENNER. So, he had a full year $65 membership for the year 1958, that is, 1 year from the time he joined which was September 10, 1958, and he rejoined at the same rate on--$65, a year, on November 1, 1959, and then in 1962, he had a $74 membership, which was really an increase in your charge?
Mr. HULEN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. For 1 year commencing October 1, 1959--but he didn't get around to paying it, apparently until the following spring, which was the $25, on the 18th of April and the $49, on the 3d of August, and then on June 1, 1963, he took out a 3-month or a 90-day short-term membership?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; a short-term membership.
Mr. JENNER. That expired on September 1st of that year, is that correct?
Mr. HULEN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. I in evidence. Did Ruby ever live at the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the records of the YMCA have been checked to determine or confirm that?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. But as--at least as far as your personal recollection is concerned, you do not recall his ever having been a guest in what you call the dormitory?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you recall Mr. Ruby using the Health Club facilities?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do---very well.


Mr. JENNER. And do you ever recall having any contact with or seeing a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At the suggestion of Mr. Sorrels, of the Secret Service, have you caused an examination to be made of the guest record of the YMCA to determine whether a person by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald was ever a guest at the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. I wouldn't be in a position to know--I'm not familiar enough with that and I have nothing whatsoever to do with it so I don't know what has been done or what has been requested.
Mr. JENNER. You have brought to me today a longhand sheet which appears on ruled notepaper and is what purports to be a list of registrations for one Lee Oswald during the year 1962, and another entry, one for the year 1963, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. From whom and from what source did you obtain this document?
Mr. HULEN. From Mr. McRee's secretary, who is the resident manager.
Mr. JENNER. McRee is the resident manager?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. McRee is the resident manager.
Mr. JENNER. And his secretary furnished you this slip of paper?
Mr. HULEN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she advise you from what source she obtained these entries?
Mr. HULEN. I made the entries myself from her records of the payments.
Mr. JENNER. I understand--you prepared this and it is in your handwriting?
Mr. HULEN. That is correct; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain the information on this piece of paper?
Mr. HULEN. From her receipts of payment for room rent.
Mr. JENNER. And those are records that are kept by the YMCA in the usual and regular course of business?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you personally examined them?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you find, when you personally examined those receipt records, any receipts in the name of a person named Lee Oswald.
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw on the receipts the name "Lee Oswald"?
Mr. HULEN. I sure did. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And then you have listed under the first heading of "Lee Oswald," a series of dates, October 15, October 16, October 17, and October 18, 1962, in each instance. Then, in parentheses following those entries in the the same sequences appears the name Burge and the name Burgess and the name Burge again and then the name Barker. Following those in the same descending sequence are serial numbers: "L--18198." In your last column and in the same sequence are dollar figures: "3.25, 2.25, 2.25 and again 2.25." Now, would you explain those entries,. please?
Mr. HULEN. Well, he checked in on 10-15-62.
Mr. JENNER. That is Lee Oswald?
Mr. HULEN. Lee Oswald check in on 10-15-62. The desk clerk at that time was a Mr. Burge, and the L-18198, was the number of the receipt which was given Lee Oswald, and the amount of $3.25, was $2.25 for the night's lodging and $1 deposit on the room key, which is refunded when it is returned to the front desk. Shall I go on?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. And then there is an additional set of entries below those we have now described and they read, "Lee Oswald, [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif." and the next line October 3, 1963--Barker?
Mr. HULEN. Barker was the desk clerk, and the M-15593 was the number of the receipt and $3.25 was the room fee and a $1 deposit on the key.
Mr. JENNER. Now, those entries record the fact then that Oswald was a guest at the YMCA October 15th through October 19th, both inclusive, and again on October 3, 1963?
Mr. HULEN. Through October 18th, I believe it is, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. It shows he was a guest at the YMCA October 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19, of 1962, and again on October 3 and to October 4 of 1963?


Mr. HULEN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER Now, the examination of the receipts for lodging of guests at the YMCA reveal only those entries you have now described and are listed on this sheet of paper with respect to Oswald?
Mr. HULEN. That's correct
Mr. JENNER. The years during the years 1962 and 1963?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And had he been a guest and registered in on any other occasion during the years 1962 and 1963, would there have been and would there be now a registration entry and a receipt for payment of the character you have described?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I am sure there would be.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we would like the YMCA to furnish us photostatic copies of those five receipts just as you have furnished us a photostatic copy of Mr. Ruby's membership application..
Mr. HULEN. I would be glad to do it.
Mr. JENNER. We would appreciate it very much.
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And if we can have those this afternoon, we would like it.
Mr. HULEN. I'm sure we can arrange it and give them to you. Shall I bring them right here?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do and we will give them to Miss Oliver and she can incorporate them in the transcript. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 2.
To the best of your recollection and drawing on whatever knowledge you have, you don't recall anybody by that name, Lee Oswald, ever having used the Health Club facilities?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. And you know Jack Ruby well enough--do you recall this person Oswald ever having been in the company of Jack Ruby at the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of Lee Oswald on television and in newspapers and magazine?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And that person is clear in your mind--do you recall his physical characterize?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. So that you are able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty, so far as you are concerned, that you never saw that person using the Health Club facilities and you never saw him in the company of Jack Ruby?
Mr. HULEN. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what kind of a fellow Ruby was?
Mr. HULEN. Well, I found----
Mr. JENNER. In your general impression?
Mr. HULEN. I found Jack Ruby to be friendly and courteous and a well-behaved person. He seemed to have a lot of enthusiasm about anything that he liked. He generated a lot of enthusiasm around that. For instance, any athletic events or sports he discussed--he discussed that with the other members, which is the usual topic of well-known weight litters, for instance, there are several--Reeves and Stanko and I can name several of them.
Mr. JENNER. Was Ruby a weight lifter? Did he dabble at that?
Mr. HULEN. Well, I should define weight lifting and body building. Weight lifting is competing, like you have in the Olympics, which is heavy lifting. In other words, you go to your maximum. Now, in body building, you take a minimum amount of weight and exercise longer--in other words, if you work with the heavy weight you can't work as long with the heavy weight as you can with the lighter weight; and Ruby was more of a body builder. In other words, he, worked with the lighter weights over a longer, period of time. In other words, he was not after, in my opinion, he wasn't after after a large body or bulging muscle, he just wants to stay in a good general physical condition.
It wasn't necessary for me to set up any kind of a program for him. He had experience in the past and he knew pretty well what he wanted to do so actually there was very little, if any supervision on my part. He used the facilities


and behaved very well and I found him to be a nice person to talk to--to visit with.
Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. Leave the deposition open for the moment, Miss Oliver, because Mr. Hulen will return with the photostatic copies of those records and we will close his deposition when we take care of that.
Mr. HULEN. Now, I will be tied up until about 1. Would 1:30 or 2 o'clock be agreeable with you?
Mr. JENNER. 2 o'clock is fine.
(At this point the witness Hulen left the deposing room, the proceedings of the deposition to be resumed at 2 p.m., of this same date, April 1, 1964, and were resumed as follows:)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen has kindly returned this afternoon with copies of the receipts to which he made reference in his testimony and of which he supplied a longhand list on ruled notebook paper, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. Now that we have the originals, we can substitute them. They are five in number, and I identified them as entitled "Receipts Young Men's Christian Association of Dallas Downtown Branch." They are signed respectively by "Burge [spelling] B-u-r-g-e" and "Barker." We will work them in order of dates, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3, 4, 5, and 6, and the receipt of October 3 as Hulen Exhibit No. 7. I take it they were desk clerks?
Mr. HULEN. The desk clerks.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Burge registered in Mr. Oswald on October 15, 1962, is that correct?
Mr. HULEN. That's correct--yes, sir?
Mr. JENNER. And the receipt shows the room number, room No. 415. Does that indicate the room to which he was assigned?
Mr. HULEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And then there is $2.25, and underneath, opposite that, "Deposit-----$1, total $3.25." And that represents the charge for the room and key deposit you testified about this morning?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. The next one is dated October 16, 1962, also--name: Lee Oswald, same room, $2.25, initialed, however--it looks like "HB", or is this "W. Burgess."'
Mr. HULEN. Correct; Burgess.
Mr. JENNER. He is also a registration clerk or desk clerk?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The next is dated the 17th of October 1962, in the name of Oswald, the same room number, $2.25, signed by Mr. Burge, whom we have already identified. The next is dated October 18, 1962, the same name Lee Oswald, same room number, same amount, but this time signed by just one word, "Barker." Is this a Mr. Barker or Miss Barker?
Mr. HULEN. Yes--Mr. Barker.
Mr. JENNER. Is he also a room clerk or registration clerk?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; he is.
Mr. JENNER. And the last in this series is dated October 3, 1963, and in this instance it is in the name of Lee H. Oswald, and it shows an address, whereas, none of the other of the first four had an address, and the address is listed here as Toro [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif. [Spelling] C-a-l.
I notice something on the first of the series which I notice again on this one of October 3, 1963, which is the printing on the line, entitled, "Membership fees," and there is the word written in longhand, "service." That's true of the first and the last of these receipts--what does that indicate?
Mr. HULEN. That indicates that he was a serviceman and that, in my opinion, that waives the membership fee.
Mr. JENNER. The room number on the October 3 receipt is 601. That, as in the case of the others, indicates the room to which he was assigned?
Mr. HULEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On this visit on October 3?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That line says, "Room 601 to 10/4" meaning October 4, I assume.
Mr. HULEN. I imagine----yes sir.
Mr. JENNER. $2.25 is shown for the room and a dollar for the key deposit,


which I take it means he was charged $2.25 for that Room 601 for 1 day or 1 night, plus a dollar to cover the key deposit?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir--that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think that concludes Mr. Hulen's deposition. I offer Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3 to 7, both inclusive. And we may close the deposition at this point.
Mr. Hulen, I didn't mention this this morning, but you may read over your deposition when Miss Oliver has completed it and if you will call in to the U.S. Attorney's Office here, Mr. Barefoot Sanders or his secretary will know when it is ready for you to read it.
Mr. HULEN. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And if you have any corrections, we would like to have them and then you sign, the deposition, or you may waive the signature now, if you wish.
Mr. HULEN. All right, I will waive the signature.

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