Testimony Of Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent, Secret Service
The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be seated, please?
Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative of the Secret Service.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I will be here in and out throughout the day, however.
Congressman Ford, will you take over please?
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear the witness.
Mr. SPECTER. Very good, sir.
Representative FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I do, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman.
Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. How old are you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old.
Mr. SPECTER. Married?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Pardon?
Mr. SPECTER. Are you married?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their ages are 20 and 17.
Mr. SPECTER. Where do you reside?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service?
Mr. KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is my 23d year.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of April in 1942, still as a special agent.
At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This was fieldwork in Indiana.
On February 1. 1955. I was transferred back to the White House detail. On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a shift. I was not in charge of it.
From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was assistant to the special agent in charge, You at that time governed each man on your shift. You were in charge of him.
On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties remained the same since that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility of the entire White House detail.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, Mr.--
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only.
Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school?
Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was appointed to the U.S. Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan State Police?
Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on.
Mr. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the Secret Service on the White House, protective detail. Who is the special agent in charge?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He was.
Mr. SPECTER. How many shifts are there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of 1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, for the trip to Texas in these 2 days.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C.
Mr. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way.
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex. that we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on November 21.
We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November 22.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes speech was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day should have the top down or remain up.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the automobile in that picture?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door convertible bubbletop. It is a special car.
Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that car have?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors.
Mr. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission Exhibit 344, is the top up or down?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one over the driver and passenger in the front seat.
Mr. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced formally in evidence, please?
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. Are you able to tell us what that depicts?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth covering that also fits over this plastic top.
Mr. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from what angle?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is from the right side.
Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission please.
Representative FORD. So admitted.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts.
Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between the front seat and the rear seat area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest would stand in this car where the people could view them a little better than sitting in the rear seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the front seat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my, head.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat.
Mr. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile itself is?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running boards?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There are no running boards.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up and ride as it proceeds in motion?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How many such positions are there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man on each one.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding in those positions?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in evidence.
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore described, of what is that composed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what efforts. if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for the President's automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Presently?
Mr. SPECTER. Presently or heretofore.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
Mr. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with a bullet-resistant top and sides.
Representative FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet resistant and the existing kind of the top?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this thing and I am at a loss for a better answer.
Representative FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy the accuracy of a shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it would eliminate--it still would enter the top.
Representative FORD. The vehicle.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would deflect its accuracy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't know. I kind of doubt it.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing the top which they are currently working on or the top which was present at the time of November 22, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was not; neither.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that effort?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am not, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported from Washington, D.C., to Texas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two stops at Houston and Fort Worth.
Representative FORD. When you say cargo aircraft--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir.
Representative FORD. A Government?
Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right,
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth?
Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the capacity to stop or deflect a bullet?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator.
Senator COOPER. There was none in existence?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth.
From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, "One moment and I will check with you one way or the other."
As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the Trade Mart?"
His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed to Mr. Lawson.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from Fort Worth?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning.
Mr. SPECTER. In, what plane were you airborne?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's activities were at Love Field, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, together with a selected group of people would form a reception committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade was in place.
At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I i do not know; the both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there perhaps some time before we got in.
Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, four thousand people there.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?
Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would drive ahead.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of motorcycles.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The next Car is the lead car. That car on that day was driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.
His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable. radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four.
So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios.
Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network?
Mr. KELLERMAN. One.
Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.
Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William Greer drove the vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths.
Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.
Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats.
Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the right.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen Bennett.
Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if at all?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch revolver on their person.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.; in this followup car we have what is now known as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the Presidential followup car follow?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.
Mr. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. This was a four-door car, with no top on it.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the market?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the market.
Mr. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants of the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the left side of the rear seat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the fight side, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police officer.
Mr. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the Vice President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who were they, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren Taylor, and I believe that is all.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was car--as an example, car No. 1, which would be a congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time.
Mr. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance of the motorcade, if you will, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the entire motorcade
Mr. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the motorcade?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on the field was sort of a winding, thing, and there were many people that gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron proper.
Mr. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Per hour.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area where all the people were out on the curb line.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled until you reached the downtown area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A lot of people.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the downtown area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on."
Mr. SPECTER. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the stopping?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Always, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car, and the people.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the downtown area itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in motion so there was nothing out of the way.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that photograph represents.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back later.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice.
(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded coming into the area depicted by that photograph?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is--this would be Main Street as we came into the heart of Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that.
Mr. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it?
Mr. SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which you have identified as Main Street?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you also mark--
Mr. KELLERMAN. We were traveling--
Mr. SPECTER. The street onto which you turned from Main Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either way.
Mr. SPECTER. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a westerly direction.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map.
(Witness indicating.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you proceed on Main Street to what street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a couple of hundred feet at the most.
Mr. SPECTER. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? You then drove to what street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street.
Mr. SPECTER. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Turned right, which would be north.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be Houston Street?
(Witness indicating.)
Mr. SPECTER. How far did you proceed down Houston Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It was a real short block.
Mr. SPECTER. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of Houston Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather sharp turn with a downgrade, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a turn on the left or the right?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it please the Commission.
Representative FORD. It will be admitted.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to identify what building is in that picture?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This building right straight ahead in the photo--I couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark on Exhibit 347--we have 348, we will get 348 back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the precise location of that building with the initials "TS."
(Witness marks.)
Mr. SPECTER. For the written part of our record will you describe how many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to be a rather square-type constructed.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, indicating first the approximate width of that street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The buildings.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about on your left?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On my left it was open.
Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what was on your right?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building that we are speaking of here
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; then your area became clear.
Mr. SPECTER. On the right?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small white--how can I describe it?
Mr. SPECTER. A little park area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A little park area; that is right, And beyond it it was all open.
Mr. SPECTER. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded down Elm Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure.
Mr. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that viaduct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I haven't.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of travel, if you recall?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down Elm Street.
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time.
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right onto Houston?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed.
Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.
Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.
Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He is not running away from us.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was behind you at that point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston.
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction.
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon?
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands--
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head.
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section.
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor.
Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not.
Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road.
Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to, him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit."
Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right.
Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice?
Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Ok. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years.
Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you.
Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pin-point just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker.
Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then.
Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any?
Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come right down--
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit."
Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous.
Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time--
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more.
Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message.
Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that.
Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.
Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.
Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.
Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--
Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.
Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this.
Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring--
Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was-- he was--flat in the seat in this direction.
Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?"
Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.
Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Not before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.
Senator COOPER. What was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh.
Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air.
Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item--and just throw it.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.
Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.
Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as the--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much.
Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear.
Representative FORD. So there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot.
Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct.
Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd.
Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.
Representative FORD. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described--
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."
Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion.
Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels."
In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive.
By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in.
We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people I don't know--we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and followed him right into the emergency room.
Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair in--we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up.
Senator COOPER. The President?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of his face?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any view--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely.
Mr. SPECTER. Of the rear part of his head?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was the hairline to the ear, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Having all the medical people in there, my business is left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still in there.
Mr. SPECTER. In where, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while they were working over the President. I walked into this center area of this emergency room--and I am looking for a telephone which there is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he said, "Yes; just pick one up."
By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the President--President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull this line; let's leave it open."
I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn."
Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot, We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry--Washington time.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.
Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Three to five minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four wounds on President Kennedy.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; OK.
Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, then.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over.
Mr. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine.
Mr. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about--
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK.
Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
Representative FORD. Above the ear and back?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. About right in here.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or absent?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below.
Mr. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and a half, 2 inches, below.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the President?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight.
Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below it.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. This is a written report.
Mr. SPECTER. This is a written report which you have read?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed on him.
Mr. SPECTER. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Entry or exit that you have described.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All you could see at that point was the operative procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Senator COOPER. You are saying this, then, that you did not see, yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is right.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in Dallas, I did not.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever see it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the front of his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound was there prior to this incision.
Senator COOPER. I know, but I am asking--
Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't see it, sir.
Senator COOPER. What you saw yourself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't.
Representative FORD. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. When I--that coat was thrown over, sir, to eliminate any gruesome pictures.
Representative FORD. How far over that body? Did it go over the head only or down the chest?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the waistline, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as you have described?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was clear.
Representative FORD. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Representative FORD. But he had his tie and his collar still.--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Still on.
Representative FORD. Still on?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You never saw his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. At that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him.
Representative FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall any.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President on the front part, in the shirt or tie area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President to which you have referred?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you said Governor Connally sustained?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back--
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into his thigh somewhere.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds aside from what you read in the medical report?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not personally.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times later, and it is the right wrist, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. It is the right wrist?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And which thigh?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the left one.
Representative FORD. Is this a good point for a recess?
Mr. SPECTER. This is fine.
Representative FORD. We will take a 5-minute break.
(Short recess.)
Representative FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed, Mr. Specter, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports themselves. Is that correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it is really not.
Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on Governor Connally's wounds.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist wound?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the hospital, any of his specific wounds?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Only of the--I am presuming now of the hand because, when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather bloody.
Mr. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Which?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The hand.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell.
Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is the framework.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just describe?
(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indention?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct sir.
Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car.
Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself.
Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir.
Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar.
Representative FORD. That is what I meant.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir.
Representative FORD. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in Washington?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of Exhibit No. 349.
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture represents?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. This crack is opposite the mirror--facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and--
Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day.
Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the White House garage?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the White House garage, did you feel the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, I did--
Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka was the other person.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350.
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, can you describe for the Commission what that is?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here was all that was cracked. These are later splints.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was taken from the President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its present state as we are viewing it here this morning?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some object with sufficient force
Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the windshield from the President's automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 and 350?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of impact, where does that exist on this windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of his, I am going to say, view line.
Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which you have described as the principal point of impact?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering lines which exist here.
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it shattered in half a dozen different ways.
Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in the general direction of the driver?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of that line at another point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about 3 inches from the original direction.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a bifurcation, dividing it into two parts?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction of about 3 inches?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of the windshield from the driver facing it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the view line of the driver.
Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a generally northeasterly direction?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already described?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a northeasterly direction.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction.
Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction.
Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the southeast to the bottom of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp southeast to the bottom of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction.
Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point--
Mr. SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of impact. Is there one other?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the southeasterly leg--
Mr. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg--I am sorry--that drops to within an inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it from the outside looking in or the inside looking out?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in.
Mr. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I would have been--pardon?
Mr. SPECTER. On the hood of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as it is sitting here today.
Mr. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you observed it on or about November 27, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from the automobile.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is red.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the windshield on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the extended lines.--
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any--
Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer.
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside.
Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines.
Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt.
Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could-that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today.
Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does.
Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the windshield, if you know?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have existed on November 22 after the assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that it could not have existed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the shooting on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have.
Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity.
Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, was the windshield in or out of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going to remove it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you. have a missile that was received from Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen.
Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. What did you mean when you made that reference, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have--I was told, although this is a hearsay thing--
Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the front seat.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge.
Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White House; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more particularity than you have mentioned?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as distinguished from whole bullets?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the fragments?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you were referring to there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was President Kennedy's skull.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments that Mr. Boring told you about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the FBI?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to the FBI?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of shots fired in this assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion.
Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion of skull?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced back to one of the two victims of this shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that which you have already mentioned?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the bullet in him.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been completed at that point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in Governor Connally?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No: it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right side.
Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas School Book Depository Building was?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street onto Elm.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there to--
Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.
Representative FORD. It is approved.
(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for identification and was received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter.
Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the car--the President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer.
Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the report?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the number of shots that were fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, that we know of three.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil.
Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a "Y" in red.
(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were traveling in the center of the road.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would your marking be any different from the "Y" position?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's car say anything that you have not already told us about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth:
"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no, as the President leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a hospital"?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?"
Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Sibert on November 22, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. November what?
Mr. SPECTER. November 22.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This was after the funeral.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events in the morgue?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise -- I just forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Did what?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion.
Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet went into the shoulder and where did it go.
Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that conversation and the parties to it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President, from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go? He said, "There are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder."
Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he said, "Yes."
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and Colonel Finck at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, from the entry of the skull, from this hole here.
Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being below the missing part of the skull?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull.
Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three doctors doing the autopsy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the skull?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you are telling us at this moment?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and Colonel Finck or Commander Humes--
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are discussing?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together when I say "we," I am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the eye, the right eye.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds in the head?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back, relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that sort?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only one.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about that subject?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject other than what you have already told us about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him to the President."
Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the best of your recollection as we sit here today.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is something you told them at some time.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my original statement.
Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your best--
Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't--
Mr. SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was simply not made by you on November 22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill and/or Sibert?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Representative FORD. May I ask--you have viewed these colored motion pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at those to see what your own actions were during this period of time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to here today?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They certainly do.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, sir, after all the occupants were removed.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look like the picture 352?
Mr. KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of November.
Mr. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This could have been taken in the White House garage.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what this picture shows?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the Presidential limousine.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is pretty well bloodied up.
Mr. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission Exhibit No. 352.
Representative FORD. So admitted.
(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what this depicts.
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the--a goodly amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the seat and also little flower petals.
Mr. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the incident.
Mr. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point, the agents who were in this followup car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, and I said, "Yes."
At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said, "Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me know of any developments." I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, reported into the emergency room This is what is called as our afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice President Johnson.
Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your next activity?
Mr. KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was--by this time it was after 1 o'clock--I am trying to pinpoint time after 1, because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such as his staff--I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe Larry O'Brien--through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained a casket from one of the funeral people in town.
Mr. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room with President Kennedy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it."
With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said Doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed."
So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me he said, "He is a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?"
And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said. "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance.
I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, you get in the middle and I will get on this side," and as we are leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen.
Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort--
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. I never left the plane.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe--
Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 minutes after 2. It is abou