Telephone Call - April 13, 1968 - Between James L. Alcock, Assistant District Attorney, and David Logan.
A. This is Jim Alcock, David from New Orleans.
L. Yes. Now let me change phones. Hold on.
L. How are you?
A. Fine. I want to apologize, you know, right off the bat. You know, they called me out of town, you know, the day before I was supposed to give you a call. That morning. But I wasn't able to give you a call, and that's the reason I hadn't called you. I called you yesterday, but I called you early and I know the other night you said that you usually don't get home until late.
L. No. I was singing a concert last night.
A. Oh, I see. I see. How is it up there now? Are you still having any trouble?
L. Well, no. Things are quiet and they called the troops out.
A. Oh, they did?
L. They're back and the National Guard is supposed to leave town like tomorrow.
A. Oh, I see. Things have gone back to normal.
L. Well, realively normal.
A. Well, we didn't have much trouble down here. I went out a couple times with the police, but it wasn't anything serious. Listen, but what I wanted to ask you about was you say you met Shaw at a party I think, as I understand it.
A. Who - and Ferrie was at the party?
A. Were you introduced to Ferrie?
L. Oh, no. It was pointed out to me later that that was who the guy was.
A. Do you recall who pointed him out to you? Was it Shaw?
L. No. It was the host of the party.
A. Oh, I see. Where was the party? Down in the Quarter?
L. Yes, it was on Gov. Nichols Street, and I've been racking my brain since I talked to you trying to think of the names of the guys who gave the party. And this may help you. They ran, and they may still run, it was two guys that ran an antique shop on Royal Street called "The London Shop".
A. "The London Shop"?
A. Is it an antique or clothing?
A. Antique? All right.
L. And I believe it was like the corner of Royal and one block North of Toulouse.
A. I see. Where you had met them earlier or something?
L. Right. I was working for a flower shop at the time, and I arranged the flowers for their parties, and this particular party which was just before Mardi Gras. And so when I - I got invited to the party through that.
A. I see. Mardi Gras what year Dave? Do you remember what year it was?
L. Let me see. It was '61.
A. Oh, '61 huh. And Shaw was at the party? Were you introduced to him at that time for the first time?
L. No. It was the [illegible] ... that.
A. You had met him at a bar? Do you remember which one it was?
L. And also another place called the - oh, it's on the corner of Toulouse and Chartres. Some kind of house. The Gally House.
A. The Galley House?
A. Oh, I see. Yeah. How did you happen to meet him. Did somebody introduce you to him, or you just struck up a conversation?
L. We just started a conversation.
A. Conversation. I see. I think you told me the last time we spoke on the phone that you had been to bed with him one time. Is that right?
L. That's right.
A. What - did you ever know anything about his - you know his whip deals, you know, where he -
L. His whips?
A. Yes, his whips.
L. Yes, I do.
A. What was behind that, or how - ?
L. Well, what was behind it?
A. I mean, not only behind it, what did you know about it? What did you see?
L. Well, I got whipped in the course of that ordeal.
A. How do you mean?
L. Well, just a minute.
A. All right.
L. I was invited for dinner, and we were served a - I was served a meal. He was at one end of a 9 foot table and I was at the other end and so on.
A. Just the two of you?
L. Right. Well, there was a maid and she was [text missing] And things got a little hairy, and we got into a real funny situation in the bedroom, and all kinds of - and I was asked to do some strange things that I had never been asked to do before.
A. I see.
L. Like beating on the ass; perform - well let's see - Well here you go. Are you ready?
A. Don't be bashful. That's all right.
L. He said to shit in his mouth and pee in his mouth or all over him and things like this. And it was, you know, really kind of traumatic as far as I was concerned. I had never come across anything like this. I've heard about people like this, but had never come in contact with them.
L. And it was - all of this was real strange. He had a - only one nipple. I don't know why, but it was real queer to be [text missing] all over the place. Really a masochistic type of person.
L. To me. But I understand from other people that have -
A. Well, how did the whips come in? You said you were threatened
L. He asked me to beat him.
A. Oh, I see. And where - did you actually do it?
L. No. No, I didn't. No that wasn't my cup of tea. At that point I said, you know, please, I'm not cut out for this sort of thing and left.
A. Yeah. Is that the only time that you were up there with him?
L. On that particular kind of level. I was there socially a couple of other times visiting with friends.
A. Do you recall any of the names of any of his closer friends?
L. Well, there was a guy whose name was John Dodt. [Handwritten note: Dodt's name surfaces in the Kerry Thornley file (see B. Reid's listing of Dodt's associates)]
A. John Who?
L. John Dodt. D O D T. Has this name come up before?
A. Yeah. I think I've heard it before.
L. And, then these two antique dealers. And I can't remember their names to save my life. And I can find them out because I have a friend who remembers them.
A. Uh, huh.
L. But I haven't been able to get ahold of him since I talked to you.
A. I see.
L. And, that's about - I mean - you know, as far as that went that's about all I can tell you.
A. Yeah. Uh huh. What - you don't know of any dealings he might have had with some young colored males?
L. No, that was sort of verboten in the set I went around in.
A. Oh, I see.
L. And it just wasn't the thing to do so I really didn't get involved in that. I did meet one once that I recall, but I don't recall the kid's name. He was young and rather on the - what appeared to be a Mulatto of some kind.
A. Oh, I see. What about Ferrie now? You say you met him at a party.
L. At the same party.
A. At the same party the second time you saw Shaw huh?
A. And what did he look like? Can you describe him?
L. He was very scrubby. He was the only person at the party wearing Levis, and a dirty, tacky sweatshirt, and, you know, just real - he was wearing a pair of dark glasses, and rumors were spreading around that he was high on pot or something like that.
A. Yeah. Okay. What - do you think perhaps if I gave you a call in a few more nights you could see your buddy and find out the names of these two guys?
L. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you could - they owned the place at the time.
A. Well, I could check that out.
L. And so I'm sure you could check it out. But I can definitely give you the names of them later.
A. Well, maybe I can give you a call some time in the [text missing]
L. Another real close friend of his was an organist.
A. An organist?
L. Right. Who played at an Episcopal church in New Orleans, and the only name that I can recall is Beezer, and I don't know the last name. And he and Shaw were real, real chummy.
L. No. No. There was a friend of Shaw's from North Carolina who I met once, who was real thick.
A. Real what?
A. In what way?
L. He was apparently, an extreme alcoholic, and they were supposed to have been friends for a number of years, and they [tro]tted[?] back and forth to New Orleans. And this is the guy who ah - who has a lot of drag.
A. A lot of what?
L. Female clothing.
A. Oh, I see. Well, let me ask you this. What was - was Shaw noted in that group of being sort of sado-masochistic?
A. Do you know anybody else in that group that participated in those activities? Did you know a couple by the name of Owens that owned, I think, the Old French Opera House or something of that kind?
L. Yes. Yes, I met them.
A. You had met them?
L. Yes. It was Bob, let's see.
A. Do you recall what - were they in that group?
L. Well, I don't know about this. But there was a bar that was on the corner of - well you know where Tony Becino's is?
L. On this corner of that, and it was called by a woman's name. The corner of Toulouse and Bourbon. Kitty-corner to the Opera House.
A. Francine's or whatever it is?
L. Well, it might be that now, but back then it was something else.
A. I see.
L. I thought - I met Shaw in there.
A. Was it San Souci's Bar?
L. Right. It was the San Souci Bar. They called it by a woman's name though most of the time.
A. Oh, I see.
L. And this woman was involved in some prostitution backing male and female, and Shaw was a regular patron there. And I met him in there on several occasions.
A. Do you mean like he would be just going to a house of prostitution, but instead of getting a female he got a male?
L. Uh huh. Well, you know, working out of this place.
A. Yeah. Well then he wasn't very -
L. He wasn't discreet at all.
A. Discreet. Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
L. No. Well, I'm sure you both know this.
A. Yeah. Right.
L. Very flagrant in fact. He was also, as I recall - let's see, there was a man and a woman that ran that bar called the Galley House, or were partners in it. He was very good friends with them. In fact, I saw him lend them money from time to time, or take large quantities of money from him when I was in there. This is a regular Saturday afternoon hangout. Saturday afternoon hangout for a lot of people, and he was quite well known in that establishment.
A. Can you recall any other places that he frequented?
A. Did he go to Dixie's much?
L. Yes. All the time.
A. What's the name of that other place I'm thinking of.
L. Well, Lafitte's In Exile.
A. Yeah. Did he go there?
A. Do you know a boy by the name of Layton Martens?
L. No, I didn't. Layton Martens.
A. M A R T E N S. Young, blonde, crew haircutted boy.
L. No. I - listen, when I was down there I met millions of people, and it's kind of hard to recall names because it's been a long time. Layton Martens. Uh, what did he do?
A. Well, he was a student at the time. I think he went to Southeastern or Southwestern.
L. No. No. I don't remember that. Listen, can I call you back in about 30 minutes. I've got some company here.
A. Oh. Well, let me just call you and maybe in, how about the middle of the week and perhaps you'll have that name?
L. Oh. Okay. Well listen - Well, I'll tell you what. Well, let's see, you don't want to call me you because you don't want me because you want to call from another phone?
A. Well, I'm at a pay station now, you see, and I want to move because I just don't trust our office phones.
L. Okay. Why don't - okay.
L. Well, I know I can get that information for you over the weekend. Why don't you give me a call on Tuesday night at 9 o'clock?
A. 9 P.M. your time?
A. All right.
L. Is that too late for you?
A. No. No, not at all.
L. Okay. And I'll get those names for you.
A. Okay. Thanks a lot David.