TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL LEE MOORE (KNIGHT)
The testimony of Russell Lee Moore was taken on July 23, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lot me start by introducing myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Generally our practice, before we swear the witness in and begin to take testimony, is to give you a little explanation of what we are trying to do here, give you some background on the investigation.
The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, issued on November 29, and a subsequent joint resolution of Congress.
Now, under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission is instructed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
We are particularly interested in your testimony today because of your ac-
quaintanceship with Jack Ruby. My questions will be directed along that line.
If you have any information at all that would bear on the assassination of President Kennedy, why, we would like to have that also.
Now, the Commission has promulgated a series of rules and regulations, and under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I am designated to take your testimony.
There is also a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to have a 3-day written notice before he appears for testimony. I think the first thing I will ask you, you did get a letter from us 3 days before you showed up here?
Mr. MOORE. Well, it was Tuesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I will ask you if you are willing to waive the written notice of the deposition.
Mr. MOORE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the general nature of the testimony that will be taken here this afternoon before I get started?
Mr. MOORE. No. I have some things that I can add after your questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Very good. Let me ask you then if you will raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MOORE. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the record your full name?
Mr. MOORE. Russell Moore, known as Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a middle name?
Mr. MOORE. Lee, Russell Lee Moore.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you prefer to have this deposition designated? Shall I address you as Mr. Moore or shall I call you Mr. Knight?
Mr. MOORE. I think Mr. Knight because this is my air name, Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Knight?
Mr. KNIGHT. Auburn Heights, Mich.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And will you give us your full address?
Mr. KNIGHT. 645 Auburn Heights, Mich.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in Michigan?
Mr. KNIGHT. Just about a month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in Dallas before that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?
Mr. KNIGHT. Two boys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to work in Dallas?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let's see. The last of February 1960.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your occupation then?
Mr. KNIGHT. Radio announcer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you work for?
Mr. KNIGHT. KLIF.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. From that time until about a month ago which would be 1964, first of June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you now employed as a radio announcer?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, in Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you with in Detroit?
Mr. KNIGHT. WXYZ, ABC.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in a general way what your duties were as a radio announcer at KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. Personality and playing records. In other words, a personality radio show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the news department?
Mr. KNIGHT. I helped out occasionally in the news department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a staff of reporters employed by KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was in charge of the news department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Joe Long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many reporters did he have under him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let's see. Sometimes four but at the present time three.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall who those people were on November 22?
Mr. KNIGHT. November 22? One was Glenn Duncan, Gary DeLaune, and Roy Nichols.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working in Dallas, did you have occasion to meet Jack Ruby before November 22, 1963?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us your best recollection. of when it was that you first met Ruby.
Mr. KNIGHT. I would say, I can't pinpoint the date, but about, I guess about a year or so before the assassination. I met him at a place called the Cotton Bowling Palace. It's a place where people congregate that work .late, and I worked till midnight. I would stop there on the way home for a cup of coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that episode.
Mr. KNIGHT. We were Just all sitting around the table as far as I remember, and somebody mentioned Jack Ruby's name, the owner of the Carousel. And there were other friends of Ruby with him at the time but I don't recall their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any convention with him at that time?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. But it was of such a menial nature I wouldn't---
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him from time to time after that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I saw him at this establishment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw him between the time you first met him and November 22?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, no way again of being sure. I would say probably 7, 8, 9, 10 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever visit any of his clubs?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was down at his Carousel Club with my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, let's see. At least 9, 8 months; 8 or 9 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to talk with him in connection with your duties at KLIF?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he had, he was up at the station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time of the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times did you see him at the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. Only about twice. He had some commercials advertising his club that run on my show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he run these commercials to your recollection?
Mr. KNIGHT. About a week; just about a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was that before the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. It was in that same area, about 9 or 10 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of conversation did you have with him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing other than he had the usual pitch, do a good job on these commercials, so forth and so on, and he at times would call me at the station at night, asking how we are coming along, to add this or put this in here. Of course, I couldn't do that but he did call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise on any other radio stations that you know of?
Mr. KNIGHT. I am sure he did but not at that particular time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it unusual for a nightclub operator such as Ruby who is running a striptease club to be advertising on the radio?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, not if it's--no. No. Because several other places of the same nature advertise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about promoting his twistboards over the radio?
Mr. KNIGHT. Twistboards?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotion other than his clubs?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you at any time a membership card or say that he was going to make you a member of the Carousel Club?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; because it was an open club anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time that President Kennedy was killed?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was home, asleep, at my address on Barnsbridge Road in Dallas, taking a nap that afternoon, and my wife was in Corpus Christi. And she heard about it before I did and she called me on the phone and told me the original news. That's the way I heard about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that the President had been shot?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the first thing I did was turn on the radio. Then I finished with--what would you do? I paced the floor and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to trace where you went.
Mr. KNIGHT. I didn't go to anyplace at that time because I didn't have to go to work till 7. My shift was 7 till midnight. My wife and kids were down in Corpus Christi visiting her mother. I was there by myself. So I just stayed there at my home on Barnsbridge until I went to work that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the hours that you were to work that particular night?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as every night, 7 to midnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack Ruby between 7 and midnight?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some occasion to have contact with him afterward?
Mr. KNIGHT. I talked to him after midnight; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us hew you first had occasion to talk with him.
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. May I do it my own--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I got through my shift at midnight. We were trying to get an interview with District Attorney Wade for the following morning's newscast. By that time the newsmen had been up all day and it was 1 a.m. in the morning and they had gone home with the exception of Glenn Duncan who was covering the news from ,the post at the station and could not leave the radio station. So he told me to go to the courthouse and if I could get a hold of Wade---Wade had called and said he had granted his last interview of the evening--but he said if you get over there right fast you might get him. And the courthouse was only three blocks from our radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan told you a call had been made?
Mr. KNIGHT. Duncan I think had actually talked to Wade on the air about 20 minutes or so but didn't get what he wanted and didn't get it on tape for the early morning newscast. In other words, he wanted me to go over and get another interview with a special little tape recorder for the early morning newscast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you went over there, did Duncan tell you anything about having talked to Jack Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Ruby had called but this is later on in the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead. Then tell us what happened.
Mr. KNIGHT. I went over to the courthouse, arriving there approximately I a.m. It could be 10 ,before, 10 after, 15 after. I didn't get to see Wade. I looked for him and I couldn't find him, went to the second floor, came back, down to the main floor. There on the main floor I encountered Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was he on the main floor?
Mr. KNIGHT. He was near the entrance and I was getting ready to leave and he was ranging around the entrance talking to other people, and he saw me and recognized me. And I--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you and ask you, by the main floor do you mean the floor on which the assembly room and records room are located, or do-you mean the floor above that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I mean the main entrance, night near the entrance right off the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. As you walk in off the street you can either walk up or down ,but you can't walk straight into the police department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Where you walk up the Steps and walk in. And he was about 10 feet up, 10 feet back up the steps or so, talking to some people just generally milling around that I didn't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. KNIGHT. I think, I am sure this is it. He overheard me ask where Wade was and then he said, "I'll show you." So I said, "Okay." Then we went down in the .basement. Now, I had never met Henry Wade before. Of course, I had heard of him. We went to the basement. Jack Ruby pointed out Henry Wade. Wade at that time was Standing by himself, had just got through with an interview with another reporter. Wade pointed out, or Ruby pointed out Wade, and he told Henry Wade who I was and Wade's reaction was, "Oh, the Weird Beard," which I am known on radio. "The Weird Beard, my kids listen to you," or something to that effect all the time. Ruby again spoke up before I had a chance to say anything and asked if he would grant an interview with me. Wade said, "Of course." Now, a point that I don't think I---on the phone they told me to make some notes, from Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. And I don't think I have told this point to the FBI or anybody before. I don't think. I'm not sure. Ruby was insistent that I ask Wade if Oswald were insane. And he asked that, he told me to ask him that question at least twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you this? When you were up on the main floor or--
Mr. KNIGHT. On the way down. On the way down because I told him I wanted an interview and so forth and this slipped out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response to Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. At the time?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. Negative. I wondered what he was doing there but it wasn't. I couldn't question, I mean I didn't know because there were a lot of people milling around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I had in mind, when Ruby said to you "Ask him if Oswald is insane," did you have any response to Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. "Okay," I said, "That's a point well taken," or something to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby have any other things he wanted you to ask?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; that was the thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you saw Wade, had Ruby said anything to you about the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not at that time; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had any discussion with him about anything other than the interview with Henry Wade up to that point?
Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing of significance; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had closed his clubs at that point, that you recall?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn't mention his clubs at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw Ruby up on the main floor, do you recall who he was with?
Mr. KNIGHT. He was by himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing, actually standing alone some place?
Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, I had the impression he had been talking because there were other people around, but at the time I did see him, on the first visual contact. he was standing by himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how he was dressed on that day?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I--it's silly. It's either a brown suit or a blue coat and I couldn't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead then, pick it up from where you were.
Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I did interview Wade. I did ask him a question about insanity and he said--I have the tape some place but I don't know where it is. I looked for it, the interview itself, and I couldn't find it. But the
essence of the interview, he said that Oswald, he was a, he was not insane, something like it was premeditated or so forth and so on. That was the gist of the interview.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby stand by while that interview took place?
Mr. KNIGHT. That I don't know, if he were in listening distance or not, because I wasn't paying any attention to Ruby while Wade and I had the interview. But when I got through with the interview he was over say 15, 20 feet. He must have been talking to other reporters and so forth in the vicinity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your interview with Wade last?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, about 30 seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished interviewing Wade?
Mr. KNIGHT. It took, the interview, either 30 seconds or a minute. I took the interview on the tape recorder, started out of the courthouse building. As I say, Ruby cornered me again, saying that he and we walked up to the best of my knowledge, we walked up back to the main entrance. He said he had sandwiches and soft drinks for the personnel over at our station, KLIF, and offered me a ride back to the station. But since it was so close I did not ride back to the station with him. And I walked back to the station and evidently he went to his car from this point.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, three or four blocks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what direction?
Mr. KNIGHT. As you go out of the courthouse, the station would be to the left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be south?
Mr. KNIGHT. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Across Commerce Street?
Mr. KNIGHT. It would be toward the Central Expressway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. Away from downtown.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What intersection would it be?
Mr. KNIGHT. Jackson at Central Expressway. Now, I guess Ruby's car was down this way or some place because he went over in a different direction.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you point that way you can't tell.
Mr. KNIGHT. Let's see. I went left and he went right. Is that all right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. That would be you walked off onto Commerce Street and you turned left towards Central Expressway, and your recollection is that Ruby turned right toward the center of town?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.
Mr. KNIGHT. I got back to the station. I was there giving the interview to Duncan who listened to it, we decided to use it on the morning's newscast, when Ruby--I guess this must have been, by this time, a quarter till two, approximately--- showed up again at the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk to the radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. Four minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later did you next hear from Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, I guess 20 minutes, time elapsed, 15, 20 minutes. It wasn't too long but at least that long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you when you first heard from Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was again, to the best of my knowledge it was out in the hall from the newsroom. I was standing with Glenn Duncan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody walk back with you to the radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I didn't. But Ruby had called Duncan earlier asking if it would be all right if he did deliver sandwiches and soft drinks to the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you say the next thing you heard from Ruby. Now, how did you hear from him? Did he proceed to walk right in?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the door was evidently open and it had been open because we had newsmen going in and out. We had, there was a guy from New York
City that phoned in his reports from the radio station, a station called WNEW.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ike Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Pappus before that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; but Pappus met Ruby there at that same time period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby came up to the newsroom where you were talking with Duncan?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the sandwiches with him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was carrying them in a box of some sort?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; it was in a sack. And the drinks, I thought it was unusual, he had celery juice or some kind of soft drinks with celery in it and it was an unusual drink.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the bottle that was unusual?
Mr. KNIGHT. The bottle? It wasn't the normal soda pop bottle. I mean I couldn't describe it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that it was a bottle that had a gold covering on it?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that sounds to be it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And did you have some conversation with him while Duncan was present at that point?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?
Mr. KNIGHT. We talked about generalities which I, if I remembered I would say it. But evidently at this time he had seen Oswald in person because he said Oswald was a goodlooking guy, said he looked like Paul Newman. These were his words. Paul Newman, the movie star. At the time I didn't question where he had seen Oswald. I am sure that same day at the police station because he had been hanging around and I think he was there when they brought him in, on the outside looking in.
Mr. GRIFFN. When they brought him in where? The police station?
Mr. KNIGHT. This is a surmise on my part.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any evidence of this?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; no. But he said he did look like, and Ruby's face, there was no bitterness against the man. Of course, there was, but I mean he said it kind of, "Why, he looks like a movie star." That's about the only thing that I can remember other than just how sad the situation was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby commenting on how sad the situation was?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your conversation up there last while Ruby was present?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as I say, this was 1:45 approximately, it could have been 1:50. We had---or 1:45 I'll say. We had a newscast at 1:50. Actually on the hour at 2 o'clock. So I guess about 10 minutes before the newscast. And I went on the newscast. Not with the tape I did over at the courthouse with Mr. Wade, but I went on with my reactions to the interview with Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember mentioning Ruby's name in that newscast?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I said, "Through a tip from a local nightclub owner I asked Mr. Wade the question of Oswald's insanity." And that's the way I had phrased it. I didn't mention his name on the newscast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the studio after the newscast?
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. The newscast lasted 5 minutes, maybe a little longer, and we stayed around and talked for I guess 10, 15 minutes. And some time in this period this Pappas showed up at the station and asked if he could use our facilities and call New York City.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby there when Pappas arrived?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether Pappas arrived before your newscast or after your newscast?
Mr. KNIGHT. It was after the newscast. In fact, I think--again this is all so hazy--I started out when Pappas was coming up the stairs, and he asked if he could use the facilities, and where could he get a phone. Since he was a fellow newsman, I pointed out the phone where he could use it and walked out. Ruby, of course, was still around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Pappas come back in and talk with you later?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; again, Pappas ate one of Ruby's sandwiches and drank one of his soft drinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember discussing Pappas' radio market, the advertising market in New York?
Mr. KNIGHT. I don't think I did. I maybe asked him how he was doing and how a certain personality, Pete Myers, was doing, that worked for NEW, New York City rather, and that. I don't think I discussed advertising.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication that Pappas recognized Ruby at that time or that Ruby recognized Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; as far as I know they were complete strangers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they talk? Was Ruby present during your conversation with Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby give Pappas a card for his club at that point?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not at this point, but I think Pappas had a card but he had gotten it earlier.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that you think that happened?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I don't remember Ruby giving him a card actually up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you learned somewhere along the line that Pappas did have a card?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I vaguely remember Pappas having the card.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am really trying to again probe your recollection as to whether you actually have a recollection that the card was made known to you at that time, that Pappas had a card, or whether you subsequently learned that Pappas got a card and sort of inferred it was earlier?
Mr. KNIGHT. I think that Pappas mentioned that he had gotten the card earlier in the day. Maybe Ruby at the time offered him one but I don't, that's still hazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby at the time he was up there at the radio station do anything which to you would indicate that he was trying to promote his clubs at that time?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any pushing in that area?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; a comment since you made that. I guess in my subconscious I didn't think of that because he had always pushed before, but this seemed to be a complete no talk about his business at all. In fact I didn't even know, he didn't even tell me that he had closed the clubs. He might hare but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation that he might have had concerning the Bernard Weissman ad which appeared in the Dallas Morning News on the 22d of November? Do you know what ad I am talking about?
Mr. KNIGHT. To impeach Earl Warren?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not impeach Earl Warren. It was a black-bordered advertisement that addressed a series of questions to President Kennedy.
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he did mention this, but at the time I wasn't familiar with it myself and he didn't mention any names. In fact, the point I remember, in the back of my mind, but how he brought it up or the names I don't remember. Now, I have a question for you, or not a question but another thing along this line that happened. He happened to call me Ruby--Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me I want to take this chronologically.
Mr. KNIGHT. That's what I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm glad you mentioned it. Did he say anything to you Friday night or through Saturday morning which would indicate that he had some idea that there was an effort being made to discredit the Jews, that the assassination was somehow a part of an effort to discredit the Jews?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no; no mention was made of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did mention this unfortunate advertisement in the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. KNIGHT. I might be mixed up on the time, but it might have been that night or it might have been that brief 15-, 20-second call that I had with him on Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did--your group up there I take it broke up, your session broke up, and you and Jack or some of the other people decided to leave how did that happen?
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. Now, to me this is the most important part. Jack Ruby and I walked out of the station, actually not out but say out on the landing in front of the steps, still in the station but down the hall. I remember him saying like, "Russ, you are a pretty square guy. I want to give you something." So we, now again, either he had them in his pocket or he walked out to his car, but he had his car parked right at the steps of the station where it would be no problem to get this, a speech called Heroism from H. L. Hunt's Life Line. Now, may I read this to you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, you may.
Mr. KNIGHT. This time segment, I left about 2:15 to 2:30 after the newscast at 2. Ruby gave me a speech from Life Line called Heroism. To my knowledge he talked about radicals in Dallas at that time but he didn't mention any names. He said he looked like Paul Newman, good-looking guy. Gave me entire speech of Life Line. Here's something I didn't realize until just the last week or so. The speech he gave me of Life Line was the speech in its entirety, the speech, the body of the speech plus the commercials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that significant to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, okay. I just realized the speech--the speech itseft is what I told the FBI. I didn't tell them about the entire body of the content. I didn't realize that. I just thought it was all together. The question in my mind, if you would write, and I'm supposing this from being in the broadcasting business, if you would write to a commercial broadcast house for the contents of a speech, which you could do, I doubt very seriously they would send you the entire thing plus the commercials and two pages of Hunt products, which was all included. It was strictly like it, and again this is my observation, like it had been taken from a stations' files that had Life Line. And what he had was not sent out by Life Line if he wrote in to order the speech. Why would they send the commercials and et cetera?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you bring that copy with you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Now, again, in our moving to Detroit, we have looked and looked and turned our house upside down. That was something I wanted to keep. But I can't find it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask you if you do come across it some time, we would very much like to see it. And, of course, all we would want to do is make a copy of it ourselves.
Mr. KNIGHT. You could get a copy of it yourself from the Hunt organization.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps we can't get the commercials. I would like to see the item you described. Are you under the impression that this is not the thing that would be sent out by Life Line?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I wouldn't see why they would send the commercials out. Maybe they do, but again I don't know. And another point that hit my mind along ,these lines, maybe, where would he obtain such a copy of this? Who would give it to him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, are you familiar with the Dallas State Fair? Did you attend the Dallas State Fair?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at the Dallas State Fair that H. L. Hunt had a booth?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the literature that was distributed at that booth?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. The copy that he gave me of this was rather soiled, but
I don't know if it was soiled with use or maybe somebody could have given it to him just lately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Soiled in a manner that indicated that somebody had read it, or that it had just been neglected?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, that it had been folded up and read. It was a new piece of paper. It had been folded and unfolded and folded and unfolded and read.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ruby say about Life Line?
Mr. KNIGHT. Again this is strange, and I don't know why he should pick me to give this to but he said, "You seem like a square guy, why don't you look this over and read it?"
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate any opinion as to his approval or disapproval as to the contents of that?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. At the time it struck me as kind of odd when I look. back on it--at the time I couldn't care less. But when I look back on it it did strike me as rather odd because he seemed to have no opinion, and I couldn't figure why he gave me the copy of the speech if he believed it. I thought, my first impression was that he thought this was the form of radicalism that was sort of mumbled and talked about a little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about radicalism?
Mr. KNIGHT. This is a word I use. I don't think he even mentioned radical. But he did mention along with it a word which I can't recall in this Saturday night conversation. I don't think he used the word radical but I can't think what he used, but we did discuss that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he talking about people who were of the John Birch Society character, the right-wing radicals, or was he talking about the Lee Harvey Oswald type radicals?
Mr. KNIGHT. That I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate approval or disapproval of radicals?
Mr. KNIGHT. Disapproval.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the conversation indicate in any way that he thought there might be any connection between what you are calling radicalism in Dallas and the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, he didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you be a little more explicit on what you think, what you recall of this discussion about radicalism, what it consisted of?
Mr. KNIGHT. Ruby seemed, he had the speech but he didn't seem to be cognizant fully of what the speech was or actually what side that he stood on. Again he just mentioned, and I know this is rather ambiguous, I'm just kind of confused.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KNIGHT. But he did mention a group in Dallas that hated President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention this group by name?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; just mentioned like there Is an element here that hates, that hated Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did he indicate that he had any specific people in mind?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; in fact I asked him. I saw the copy of Hunt and his Life Line called Heroism, and myself, I have always thought, I think Hunt is a definite radical. I think he's about halfway out of it in common terms. And I mentioned to him, I said, I think now again, I think I said, "Do you mean the Hunts?" And he didn't reply either yes or no, just kind of, because I don't know if he even knew the term, Hunt or not. I'm sure he did but he didn't seem to recollect it, the name, or any more about it when I brought it up. That was late at night and I was tired.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention any other names?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; Hunt was the name that came to my mind, Life Line, especially after he gave me the speech.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station in Dallas has a Life Line broadcast?
Mr. KNIGHT. KLRD; I think, KLRD.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people in the news department of KLRD?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not on a personal basis. I have talked with them maybe twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall some of the names of the people in that department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Frank Gleiber in sports. He doubles up in sports and news. There's a guy that was the head of the "After" Union down there. He was head of the news department. Ray somebody; I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything in your experience suggest anything to you about why Ruby would have picked up such an advertisement in the first place?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; one more comment on my part. I mentioned to the FBI and too, I was actually subpenaed for the trial by Belli, Ruby's lawyer, which I didn't understand, which to me, the speech "Heroism," the people I told about it just seemed to kind of, OK, but no point was, I mean I was not asked to recall anything or really talk about it. They seemed to not think it was a very important part. And I thought it was. It seemed to me very important. But I did mention it, mentioned as much as I recall, but they didn't seem to be interested in it and I thought they knew more about--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby say anything to you which would indicate whether or not he had actually read the radio script?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; but he told me to read it, and evidently he had read it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you which would indicate what his feeling was about the substance of that radio script?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; there again is the hazy part He seemed to be giving it to me for me to read it just to get my impressions of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any impression that he was looking for you to tell him whether he should agree or disagree with the content?
Mr. KNIGHT. That is a possibility.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that might indicate that to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, for the simple matter of him not being yes or no about it. He just like, here's the speech, read it. He didn't seem to have any, although at the time I assumed that--I feel like I'm talking in circles--I assume that he did or had read it and did not agree with this theory that was portrayed in the copy of "Heroism" but wanted to see what my reaction to it would be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think he didn't agree with it?
Mr. KNIGHT. See, I'm speculating; I don't know. That was my first reaction. And then we just broke up after that. I went my way and in fact I think I went back up to the station and he went out to his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ike Pappas left at the time you walked out?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I think Pappas was still there when I left. I'm sure he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did anybody else come up to the station with Pappas?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do anything else that night?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; I went straight home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the next day?
Mr. KNIGHT. The next day? Well, let me see. I think I slept; I went home and took myself something to eat, it must have been 4:30 or 5 that morning, and went to bed and didn't get up until--I had received a call at 9 o'clock that morning from a news friend of mine from Kansas City, and I was up, maybe just about a minute; I went back to sleep and didn't wake up until 3 or 4 that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Turned on television; laid around the house. I have to go in at 6 on Saturday night, 6 to midnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby called you by the time you went to the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn't call me at the house. I guess he didn't even know my number. So I got to the station about 6. And, of course, we had, had gone, we were top 40 so to speak, play the hit records. We were playing albums. And I didn't have anything to do except cut in with the station breaks and news items that pertained to the situation. And I guess it was between 6 and 8 sometime, I didn't pinpoint it. Ruby called and wanted to talk to me. He called the newsroom and wanted to talk to me. So I talked to him and I got on the phone, right when I got on the phone a break was coming after the record, and I said, "I have to go, I can't talk."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Station break was coming?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me; I'm trying to pinpoint the time here before you get into it. Is it a quarter-hour station break or hour?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; half-hour, on the hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would have been approximately on the half-hour or hour when he called you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Approximately; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already been there some time?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it would have had, it couldn't have been before the 6:30 station break?
Mr. KNIGHT. Probably between the 7 and 8:30. But now I couldn't, I have no way, I couldn't even make, I'm not even going to make a statement of that. I wouldn't even know because I forgot all about it right after I hung up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say probably because it seems to you a substantial amount of time had elapsed, or do you have some other particular reference?
Mr. KNIGHT. A 6-hour shift is a long shift to go on the air. It seems I'd been there listening to the music about an hour. It seems like I had just gotten into the shift. Not quite the halfway point. About a third into it when he called. I only remember two things. Once again, "Russ, you are a square guy." I don't know why he would say that. This is the way he talked. He seemed to be impressed by anybody who did something like in radio, movies, television, so forth and so on. He mentioned, he asked me one question. Again we only talked 20, 30 seconds because at the end of that 20, 30 seconds, I said, "Jack, I've got to go because" so forth and so on. I didn't particularly want to talk anyway. So he said, which seems to me now, and again this is just--I didn't recollect this until lately. I should have---he asked me who Earl Warren was, which seemed funny. You would think a man would know who Earl Warren was. But that was his question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about having any photographs?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; not to me, although I did read in the paper later where it said that, but not to me personally. But I thought it was funny he asked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any possibility that this telephone call could have been made to you at home rather than at the radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you on a private line of any sort, or did he have to go through a switchboard to get you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, no. Well, the switchboard would have been closed. We have two news lines which are supposed to be private but everybody knows them. Even kids call on them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody at your home during--at that time?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could Jack have known you were at the radio station by reading the newspaper? Was your program listed?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, everbody by being there 3 1/2 years everybody knew what time segment I had. I was the kid diskjockey, so to speak. I had the top rating and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jack knew enough about your program so he knew you had arrived at the station?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he listened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he called you on other radio programs?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; as I say, when he has his commercials on he would call from time to time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was KLIF running commercials for Jack during this week that the President arrived and so forth?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack advertised on the Saturday night shows?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that was during that week 9 to 10 months prior.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal information that Jack listened to KLIF much more often that he listened to any other radio station?
Mr. KNIGHT. So he said; and by talking to him from time to time like at the Cotton Bowling Palace, he seemed to be a great admirer of our owner again, who put the editorials out, Gordon McLendon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these political editorials?
Mr. KNIGHT. Sometimes; not all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon a person that Ruby would have put in the radical group?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he greatly admired McLendon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of his admiration if you have any information?
Mr. KNIGHT. I would imagine because of his outspoken editorials that he did and the guy stood for a lot of good things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon substantially more outspoken than other radio-station owners?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, he was the only one in Dallas radio. that did any editorializing; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you that would indicate that he admired McLendon?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, again I guess--see, Ruby had evidently listened to McLendon for years before I ever came in there, but just an overall, an overall thing. Just admired the way the guy took stands on things and the way he talked about them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention these things?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn't have to. It was known. He didn't, if you are getting to a point, he didn't mention any specific editorial that Gordon did that he admired. He seemed to admire the man as a whole.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could his admiration for McLendon be in part affected by personal consideration that McLendon might have given Jack in plugging his Carousel Club, something like that?
Mr. KNIGHT. I don't think so because I think he paid for that because they were commercial spots.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did McLendon speak out against?
Mr. KNIGHT. Take for instance after the assassination, he came to the defense of .the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how about before the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Before? Of course, you know he ran for senator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. And he thought there was waste in Government so to speak, but he never, never said anything against the Kennedy administration in his editorials. He always seemed to be a supporter of them. In fact he ran on the Democratic ticket himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any civic projects that he came out strongly in favor of?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. There was a point they were going to tear down Love Field. It was trying to be decided ,to have one solid airport between Fort Worth and Dallas, or keep Love Field, which is in Dallas. He came out strongly, instead of having an airport between, he said Dallas needed her airport. That was one thing. There was feeling on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the weekend of the 22d, and 23d, and 24th, were any special efforts made by the KLIF news staff to cover the events that were taking place in the police department?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. We had a reporter on standby over there all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you on Sunday morning when Oswald was shot?
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went home after my shift to midnight Saturday night and went to bed because I was supposed to drive down and pick up my wife Sunday morning in Corpus Christi. I debated what to do. I called her. She said, "Come ahead." She wanted to come home. I was driving to Corpus Christi, I guess on the outskirts of Waco, which is about 99 miles from Dallas. I was listening to the radio and I heard what Ruby did to Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you saw Ike Pappas on Friday night, did you ever see him again up until the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr. KNIGHT. During that time period; no. I saw him later at the trial Ruby. I didn't see him again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a man from KLIF down in the basement at the time Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?
Mr. KNIGHT. Gary DeLaune. In fact he had a tape of it that KLIF still has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a man by the name of Ken Dowe a member of the KLIF staff?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. He was the afternoon diskjockey. Ruby I think had called him Saturday afternoon a couple of times; yes. By the way, this just hit me. Ruby wanted McLendon to do an editorial about this whole thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About the assassination?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When. Did he mention this to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday night when we were all talking together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean early Saturday morning?
Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make this statement upstairs in the newsroom or when you were down on the landing talking to him?
Mr. KNIGHT. I think it was when were were out in the hall walking down to the landing. But he wanted Gordon McLendon to do an editorial, again I don't remember the exact words used, but I think against the elements in. Dallas that would bring something about; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, what you are suggesting from the things you said here is that Ruby or at least the inference one can draw is that Ruby had the idea that radical elements in Dallas were somehow responsible. I take it by this we are talking about the rightwing radicals. Or were there leftwing radicals in Dallas also?
Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I'm not too familiar with the terms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the H. L. Hunt?
Mr. KNIGHT. Would be the rightwing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the people that Ruby had in mind?
Mr. KNIGHT. I would say so. Now, again, I--
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you got the impression when he was talking about the people in Dallas that had brought this about or that he had people in mind who were of H. L. Hunt's political persuasion?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes,
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that we have been talking about it--
Mr. KNIGHT. The same people for instance that spat on Stevenson and hit him with a sign, the same element.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby mention that?
Mr. KNIGHT. I wouldn't make a good detective, but it's in my--the back of my brain that he might have and he might not have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Remember, it's a long time. And I don't want to put you in a position of saying something that is not accurate. I would much rather have you say that you don't remember.
Mr. KNIGHT. But I mean looking back on it, it's hard to figure what he actually told you and what you read about him after it happened because, naturally, you would read all these things and it's hard to piece out when at the time who would guess that he would do something like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well---
Mr. KNIGHT. May I make a statement?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. KNIGHT. It's--again it's speculation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right
Mr. KNIGHT. But my wife and I both were talking about this, about Ruby's conduct, like he didn't really come out and say this or this just seemed to sort of mixed up about the situation and the speech "Heroism" had been soiled and evidently had been used, and it wasn't the average commercial content and
so forth and so on that you would get through the mail by sending off. There's a possibility somebody could have given him that speech, planting the seeds of heroism in his mind, knowing that he was of an excitable nature and a very impressionable type person and did like to be on the side of right people, the people in the front, show people, et cetera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea who such a person might be?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; but it seemed to me like too much of a coincidence that he should be carrying a speech called "Heroism" and then for him to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning, and for this point, maybe it is a coincidence, but it's been overlooked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other places he could have got this heroism ad except from Station KRLD or a person affiliated with it, the H. L. Hunt booth down at Dallas State Fair perhaps, or from writing in to wherever it is centrally produced? Those would be the three places?
Mr. KNIGHT. I can't, but again, with his seemingly handing this speech to me and wanting, maybe wanting a reaction from me, saying "Russ, you are a square guy," like maybe you know more about these things than I do, "Who is Earl Warren," denotes a confused attitude in his mind about the whole situation. If somebody did know him---of course, that's a pretty farfetched idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, did you know George Senator?
Mr. KNIGHT. I met George at the Cotton Bowling Palace I think about twice and I didn't even recall his name until I read it in the paper, or heard it over the radio, rather.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. KNIGHT. The name is familiar; yes. I don't know if I would know him if I'd see him or not. I think I would but I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a police officer by the name of Harry Olsen?
Mr. KNIGHT. Again I might but I don't recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Jack's strippers?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let's see. I met one called Jada up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jada's act?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any comments on her act?
Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, he thought she was great. He said, if I remember, on this situation, he said, "She's very good but she's tough to handle."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know an entertainer named Breck Wall?
Mr. KNIGHT. Not personally. I had read about him in the Dallas paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you did not see any of these people or hear about any of these people that I have just mentioned on the 22d or 23d or 24th?
Mr. KNIGHT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information at all as to how Ruby got into that basement when he shot Oswald?
Mr. KNIGHT. None whatsoever; I just know that they weren't checking very closely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mr. KNIGHT. Because I walked in there Friday night myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody attempt to check you?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. Let me see. This was right before I went on my air shift at 7. I walked in with some sandwiches for our reporter over there, Gary De Laune. I walked around the scene and so forth. I couldn't find him so I just took the sandwiches back to the station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go just before 7 o'clock? Where did you walk? Did you walk up on the third floor?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk on any other floors?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I think the third floor--is that where Oswald was being held now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went up to there and stood around with the battery of camera and press photographers waiting, trying to find our reporter. Then I went down in the basement, couldn't find him, then I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before 7 o'clock was that?
Mr. KNIGHT. I was supposed to go on at 7. I guess I was about maybe 20 minutes late. About 5 minutes till 7.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were up at the police department till 5 minutes of 7?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. We had continuous news coverage. I actually didn't go on my own camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been up in the hallway at that time, would you have seen him as a result of your walking around?
Mr. KNIGHT. I'm sure I would have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would have remembered it now?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, but I did not see him.
Mr. GRIffIN. Do you know a fellow by the name of Jenkins from KBOX?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, not personally but I have met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes and no. I met so many. I think he was a short fellow but I'm not quite sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Ruby received any assistance from anybody in connection with the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. I have another little item here you might be interested in. His sister, Eva Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Tell us about that.
Mr. KNIGHT. She wouldn't make a statement through the press until, she wanted to contact me, or Joe Long or Gordon McLendon or somebody with KLIF. So she did get a hold of me through the station and they gave me or gave her, and I don't know, this was a bonehead play on our receptionist's part, the receptionist gave her my home number, and since I didn't get back in town, naturally after the killing, until Monday night, I didn't get it until I went in to work at 7 o'clock Monday night. And I had a little message on the phone, "Eva Grant is trying to get hold of you, would you please call this number" and so forth. So evidently our receptionist at the station didn't know who Eva Grant was. And I had met Eva Grant with Jack. I think she was out at the Cotton-Bowling Palace a couple of times. And I had been in the place that she had. She had another nightclub. It was just a dance place, male and female clientele. I had been in there with two other diskjockeys one night we met her originally. I can't think of the name of it.
But anyway, she wanted to make a statement so I called this number on the spindle that she had given me. Somebody answered and said "She's not here"' and hung up. So I tried it again and the same thing. The voice seemed very. distraught. "She's not here" and hung up.
So I did my shift that night and the next morning I tried again because I thought this might be a very important news item. I called my boss, Gordon McLendon, about it. But I did get through to her and talked to her. And she wanted me to come over or somebody to come over. Actually didn't want us to come over because she didn't realize what she was talking about at that time or how she wanted to do it. But she wanted to make a press release over KLIF because reporters from all over the world had tried to get in touch with her and she didn't want to talk to any of them. At this point I said we would send somebody over. I remember her saying that Jack didn't know what he was doing. She believed it because it was a sincere thing. She was out of her mind, hysterical. She said the same thing on our interview tape that we have in our file, "Jack didn't know what he was doing." And she also said, "Please come down, the Dallas police are coming." So, "And bring Joe Long." And he took Gary DeLaune over and they both went over and got the interview through Eva Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as Russell Knight deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1--this purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by two FBI agents, Alfred D. Neeley and J. Calvin Rice. The interview took place with you on November 29, 1963. I would like you to it over, read it carefully, and then tell me whether or not there are any corrections that you would make in that, any inaccuracies in there. Let this for you. What I am really directing your attention to is whether that an accurate report of what you told them at that time, not if as a result of reflection you think there are things wrong in it.
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I saw it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to clear up then by one or two questions what appears to be a discrepancy between what the FBI have reported and what we have been talking about here today. The FBI says in here that you stated that Glenn Duncan told you "he received a telephone call from Jack Ruby who asked him if he was interested in an interview with District Attorney Henry Wade and indicated that he was calling from the police department * * * Moore stated he immediately departed for the police department in an effort to contact Henry Wade." I believe when we were talking earlier it was your reeollection you went over independently. Do you recall I asked you?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I meant to say Duncan had told me to go over. This is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Duncan tell you that he received a call from Jack Ruby?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I mentioned it in our interview, but I mentioned it with the sandwiches that he received a call asking to bring sandwiches up to the station, 'but he did mention "How would you like to have an interview with Henry Wade."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan said that to you?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you know that Ruby had made a telephone call to set this thing up?
Mr. KNIGHT. Let's get the time straight. Duncan didn't mention before I left for the courthouse. He mentioned the fact that a guy by the name of Jack Ruby called about an interview. And I don't think Duncan ever met Ruby before. And he said, "Go over there and get the interview at the courthouse."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, when you went to the courthouse you were actually looking for Ruby, weren't you?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Why would I be? No. Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Ruby was going to set the interview up?
Mr. KNIGHT. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your understanding?
Mr. KNIGHT. Here's your confusing point. Ruby had called Duncan about the telephone interview that I told you that Wade had given Duncan earlier, in which, well, it was all right, but it wasn't what they really wanted. That was with the telephone interview and I didn't know Ruby would even be at the police station when I was going over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that you went over to the police station after Duncan had tape-recorded the telephone interview?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, that's a fact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something that you have a clear recollection of, that Duncan said he had already tried to record the telephone interview?
Mr. KNIGHT. It had to be because I was--I didn't get back to the station till about 1:45. He had already had, he might have got it in the meantime but he already had the other on tape.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there, possibly there was a sequence something like that, that Ruby called Duncan and said "How would you like an interview with Henry Wade," that Duncan told you "Go over there and get an interview with Henry Wade," in the meantime Ruby himself got Wade to the phone and while you were in transit to the police station Duncan recorded the interview?
Mr. KNIGHT. That could have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any facts that you can think of which would indicate one way or another that that happened or did not happen?
Mr. KNGHT. No; all I know is that Duncan had the interview with Wade but he wanted me to get another one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was your understanding when you left, or was it your understanding when you left the radio station that Duncan had already tape-recorded an interview of Wade?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; he told me to get an interview with Wade and it wasn't until I got back that he said he had tried earlier and got an interview but it wasn't satisfactory. Now, another point about Ruby pointing out Henry Wade to me, I
had never seen Henry Wade before because I usually didn't do news. I was on the personality and record playing. Wade said that he didn't know Ruby but I guess Ruby could have seen him other places. But he did point him out. He said, "This is Henry Wade. This is the Weird Beard." But he seemed to know Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In, your interview here, Agents Neeley and Rice report that after you interviewed Wade "when he got through Ruby was gone." You testifled here today, you recall, that you actually walked out with Ruby, that you saw Ruby a few feet away. Now, which would be the most accurate?
Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, this is what probably happened on that. When I got through with the interview he wasn't around but when I started to walk out I encountered him again so this would be more accurate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you also mentioned in your interview report or the FBI mentions that you recalled Ruby was grieving for the Kennedy family. Do you have any recollection that he mentioned the Kennedy family in any way?
Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I'm almost sure that he said "That poor family."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you .recall where that would have taken place?
Mr. KNIGHT. That would have been around the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been downstairs or upstairs?
Mr. KNIGHT. No; that would have been with everybody around there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven't any more questions and I will just throw in one general one. Is there anything else that you can think of we haven't covered that you think we ought to know?
Mr. KNIGHT. No. I'm trying to go back in my mind, too, and think of the insanity thing. I don't think I mentioned before, that is, Oswald's sanity, and the Heroism thing. And I can't think of anything that would be significant except my own again speculation about the whole thing which I am sure you don't want to hear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have probably speculated on everything that could be based on facts here. You have speculated some and it's been helpful. Of course, we are interested in speculations only to the extent that they might suggest some facts.
Mr. KNIGHT. One big speculation that I told you, who could have given Ruby the speech of Heroism. That's it. How could he, where did he obtain a copy. And again, well, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if it's reassuring to you, but we speculated about this, too, and we made an effort to find out.
Mr. KNIGHT. In the trial that Ruby just sort of said, "This is it, we have had it," it was just a very fast job and ended the trial like they just wanted to get him in there and convict him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the defense was conducted that way or that the prosecution--
Mr. KNIGHT. No; the prosecution--don't use the word railroad. Strike that out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KNIGHT. But it seemed like they just put the poor guy in there and nobody would listen to anything. They just wanted to get him convicted for and maybe ease the conscience or something like that. It really wasn't an example of American justice. That's not fact. That's my speculation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We thank you for coming here all the way from Detroit and we appreciate people who cooperate as fully as you have here and realize it's a sacrifice for you to do this. I don't know whether my secretary indicated over the phone but the Commission, of course, pays mileage and out-of-pocket expenses. And the way we have been handling this with people who haven't come to Washington is that we have asked them to send to us in Washington a list of expenses they have had in connection with this, and we will see the proper people in Washington check it out.
Mr. KNIGHT. Should I send like the gas receipts and hotel bills?
Mr. GRIFFIN. They won't pay you the gas receipts. They will pay you so many cents a mile, and will pay your out-of-pocket hotel expenses.
Mr. KNIGHT. Will they pay for my wife?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think so.