TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY

The testimony of Earl Ruby was taken at 9 a.m, on June 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Earl Ruby.
My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

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Under the provisions of the Presidential Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized by the Commission to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and about any possible relationship of Jack Ruby with that death, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mr. Ruby, I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the staff of the President's Commission. Is that a fact, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that received?
Mr. RUBY. I received that Monday when I returned home from work about 7 p.m., it was waiting for me.
Mr. HUBERT. It was June 1?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of it?
Mr. RUBY. That it was mailed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. It was mailed May 28.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't think there is any problem about it, but just to make certain, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he wishes. I think that there has actually been a 3-day notice under the rules of the Commission since the 3 days commence to run from the time of the mailing of the document, but in this case, as I said, the rules provide that you can waive the 3-day written notice, and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive it and go on with your testimony today.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, and raise your right hand, so I may administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Earl R. Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Forty-nine.
Mr. HUBERT. You are married?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who are you married to? What was the maiden name of the lady you married?
Mr. RUBY. Margie Greene.
Mr. HUBERT. And have you been married only once?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was married twice.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of your first wife?
Mr. RUBY. Mildred Brownstein.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry her, and where?
Mr. RUBY. I married her in Chicago in 1945.
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?
Mr. RUBY. Through divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the divorce obtained?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been married, then, twice only?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any children?

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Mr. RUBY. Yes; three.
Mr. HUBERT. Any from the first marriage?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record, would you state the names of the children and their ages?
Mr. RUBY. Robert, 15 years of age; Denise, 13 years of age; and Joyce, 10 years of age.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you presently reside?
Mr. RUBY. 29925 Woodland Drive, Southfield, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Southfield near Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is a suburb, northwest suburb of Detroit.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, I wish to get some general background concerning you, starting off with where you were born and where you spent the early years of your life. Will you tell us, please?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. I was born in Chicago on April 16, 1915, and I lived on what is known as the east side of Chicago, and went to school in that area for a few years, and then my mother and father became separated, and I was sent to a foster home, and then I also was sent to live on a farm for a year, a little more than a year. Then I came back and lived in another foster home for awhile. Then we sort of, the family sort of, got together and I moved back with my mother and the rest of the family other than my father, and then we more or less lived together until I enlisted in the Service in 1942, and then my mother passed away in 1944, and then I became married in 1945. Is that skipping too much, do you think?
Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to go back a bit and get some dates on some of the things you have said there. For example, when did your father and mother separate so that home was broken?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I don't remember, it is so far.
Mr. HUBERT. How old were you, roughly?
Mr. RUBY. I don't even know, 8, 7, 8, 9. I don't even remember.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it would have been around the early 1920's, 1922, 1923, 1924, somewhere along in there?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I don't remember those dates at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What were the foster homes? Were they sort of orphanages?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or homes.
Mr. RUBY. Private homes.
Mr. HUBERT. Private homes?
Mr. RUBY. Private homes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you separated from your brothers and sisters when you went to the foster home, or did they go to the same foster home?
Mr. RUBY. On the farm I was with my brother Sam, and Jack was in another farm some distance away from us. In the foster home Sam and I were together again, I think, just Sam and I. Then in another foster home, I think Jack was with us. The three of us were in one foster home together.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you lived at what was called the east side in Chicago.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was like the ghetto of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get what sort of a neighborhood is that? What sort of a district was it?
Mr. RUBY. It was the Maxwell Street district of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe that a bit?
Mr. RUBY. It is where they have the pushcarts on the street. I don't know a word that would describe that, but you know, have all their wares displayed right on the street and right on the sidewalk. It is several blocks long.
Mr. HUBERT. The foster homes were not in that neighborhood, were they?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were the farms?
Mr. RUBY. The farm that I was on was in Woodstock, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work were you doing on the farm?
Mr. RUBY. We helped the farmer, you know, with regular farm chores. We

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fed the cows and the horses and took the cows to the pasture and brought them back.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school during all that time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Even when you were on the farm?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. So that what is your educational background?
Mr. RUBY. I finished high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mr. RUBY. Crane High School in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other formal education in the sense of special training in any field?
Mr. RUBY. I would say no.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the background and early life of your brother Jack, say, from the time 1925 forward, 1930, along in there? I think he is a couple of years older than you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. He is about 3 years older than I am. Well, I can tell you that he always seemed to be in fights in one manner or another that I can remember. He was like the bodyguard of the family, you might say, because in those years we lived a half block from Roosevelt Road, and on the other side of the road was the Italian section, and that was called, we used to call it Dago Town, and the Jews couldn't go near that street. And my sisters, well, if they weren't escorted to the streetcars then and nobody arranged to meet them at the streetcar when they returned from work, they would be insulted and abused. So that was, more or less, Jack's job, if I recall, to meet them there.
He always had to go and meet them at the streetcar when they were returning from work. In the morning I don't think it was so bad because so many people were going to the streetcar.
Mr. HUBERT. How old was Jack at that time that you are describing? I gather it would have been after the family was brought together again.
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. This goes back, it must have been in the twenties. Maybe he was 15 years old or so.
Mr. HUBERT. When did the family come back together again after having been separated?
Mr. RUBY. Maybe 1928 or 1929. I am not sure of these dates, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked is because I was under the impression that after your father left, there was a breakup of the family, and then you were not living in this section of Chicago.
Mr. RUBY. No. We moved west on Sacramento Boulevard. That is when I remember coming back to the family.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at are these instances that Jack had to act as bodyguard against the Italian element, as you put it. That was not when you were living in foster homes, was it?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor was it when you were living on the farm?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. That was in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was either prior to the breakup of the family or afterwards?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. After the reconciliation, or was it both?
Mr. RUBY. I would say that I remember it was prior.
Mr. HUBERT. He was just a teenager then?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
.Mr. HUBERT. When the family was brought together again, which was around 1928, where did the family live then?
Mr. RUBY. On Sacramento Boulevard in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is a different thing from the so-called east side?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is further west.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn't have any such difficulties at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we did, because even though we were west we were still borderlining the Italian element, but we were further west. But it was an improvement as to the other section.

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Mr. HUBERT. Now, the family remained more or less as a unit, I gather it is your testimony, until the war came.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Before the war Jack lived in San Francisco for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he live there, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. It would be a few years. I don't know exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. I think he went there with your sister.
Mr. RUBY. That is right, sir; and he was working for a newspaper selling subscriptions.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they went out to the west coast?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. It was just Eva and Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had the other girls married by then?
Mr. RUBY. I think one sister was married. I think my sister Ann was married by then.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever, yourself, been convicted of any felony?
Mr. RUBY. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business dealings at all with Jack prior to 1933, that is to say, prior to the time you moved to the west coast?
Mr. RUBY. Business dealings? No; because I was going to school then. I was in grammar school and high school.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1933 actually you were 18.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was in high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What about your business associations with Jack after his return from the west coast, until you went into the service? Did you have any?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. We worked together for, oh, I think maybe a year. He and another fellow, I think his name is Harry Epstein, organized the Spartan Novelty Co., which has been out of business for many years.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation?
Mr. RUBY. No; it was just a small company, very.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you a part of it then, or did you become a part of it?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was only an employee. I worked with them.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the business of that company?
Mr. RUBY. It was selling cedar chests with candy and punchcards.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that business last?
Mr. RUBY. Only until, I worked with them only until the war broke out, because I came back. I was working with them--right after the war broke out December 7, then February--some time in February--I enlisted in the Sea-bees of the Navy, and then I went into the service, and when I came out of the service, my other three brothers were still in, and I started up the same type of business, cedar chests with candy.
Mr. HUBERT. This Spartan Novelty Co. was really prior to the war then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it lasted how many years?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I only worked for them about a year.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Epstein still living?
Mr. RUBY. Still living? Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. RUBY. He sells, manufactures and sells--what would you call that--I think onyx desk sets. I did have business dealings then. Do you want me to go on now?
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to ask you about a trip that I think you took to Seattle in 1941. Do you remember that?
Mr. RUBY. Seattle?
Mr. HUBERT. Washington; yes.
Mr. RUBY. Seattle in 1941. In 1942 in the service, 1942.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did go to Seattle?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, because I went through the Seabees. I was in the Seabees, and we shoved off from Bremerton, Wash., which, as you know, is right across the bay from Seattle. That is the only time I remember being there.

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Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember the name of Daniel Sloan?
Mr. RUBY. I know the Sloan family in Chicago, but I don't know if his name is Daniel.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any Sloan family, and particularly a Daniel Sloan, in Seattle?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that you did not visit him prior to the war at all?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or had you ever been to Seattle prior to the war?
Mr. RUBY. No. Only with the Seabees when we stayed at Camp--I can't remember--I think it is Lewis, Fort Lewis there. We stayed with the Army because they had no facilities, and we then went across to Bremerton and we got on a ship there and left from there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to?
Mr. RUBY. The Aleutian Islands.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?
Mr. RUBY. In the service? About 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. And were you honorably discharged?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You left the service prior to the end of the war, then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain how that came about?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I had some trouble with a varicocele in my testicles.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it is not varicose?
Mr. RUBY. No, they call it varicocele. It is a little different.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a medical discharge?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think it is called a medical.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any disability of such a nature that you received disability pay?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, 10 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Anyhow, how this took place, they were going to operate, and they prepared me for the operation the night before. You know, they shaved me and all that, and give me the pill, the sleeping pill or whatever it was, and then the next morning I got up and I was dopey, of course, and I felt--and there was no operation--no pain, and I couldn't understand it, and so when I was able enough to talk coherently I called the nurse and asked her what happened. She says they changed their mind, and they were going to discharge me from the service because they didn't think I would be of much use to them after the operation. I think that was the reason, or they decided that.
Mr. HUBERT. So you left the service in 1944?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?
Mr. RUBY. Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you live with?
Mr. RUBY. The family.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. And I started up this cedar chest business again.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a trade name then?
Mr. RUBY. I called it Earl Products Co.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any kind of a punchboard operation?
Mr. RUBY. No; that was before. That was the Spartan Novelty. Mine was just selling--no, I sold some punchboards, that is right. I sold some punchboards with my operation for about a year.
Mr. HUBERT. These were candy punchboards, were they?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where you might win some candy, is that correct, if you punched the right number?

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Mr. RUBY. Well, they could win a box of candy or win a pen set, I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What area did you operate in as to the Earl Products Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I operated it through Earl Mail, more or less, through advertising in the Billboard Magazine, and I shipped in, it wasn't a large operation, but I shipped out of State all the way across the country. I don't remember the States, but I did ship quite a few States over the years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were alone at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was by myself then.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your brothers ultimately join you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as my brothers came out of the service, I took them in and gave them a piece of the business. First Sam came out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they invest?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or they just came in?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. They didn't put up any money?
Mr. RUBY. When Sam came out, I gave him half interest. Then when my oldest brother came out----
Mr. HUBERT. That is Jack?
Mr. RUBY. No; Hyman. And then I took him in. Then when Jack came out, then I took him in. So we were all together for not too long because it just wasn't enough for all of us.
Mr. HUBERT. You all were sharing the profits?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Equally?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a salary or commission basis?
Mr. RUBY. I think we were sharing that equally. I am quite sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened to the company?
Mr. RUBY. Well, then my brother Hyman left us, and then there was Jack, Sam, and myself left.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Hyman leave for? What was the reason for his leaving?
Mr. RUBY. There just wasn't enough money, and you know when there is not enough money we have a few arguments in the family, so he decided to leave.
Mr. HUBERT. What business did he go into?
Mr. RUBY. I don't remember. I think he went himself in some company.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there were three of you. What happened then?
Mr. RUBY. Then my sister Eva had been in Dallas for, oh, a few years, and she had been writing to Jack and telling him how good it was down there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing, do you recall?
Mr. RUBY. Running a nightclub. I think it was called the Silver Spur.
Mr. HUBERT. And then?
Mr. RUBY. So Jack and Sam had an argument, and so we just couldn't get along, so we decided to buy Jack out.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you and Sam decided to do that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes, yes; and we then bought him out. I think we paid him something like $14,000 or $15,000, 14,000 and some hundred dollars, and he left for Dallas, and he remained there until the incident happened.
Mr. HUBERT. When he had the argument with Sam which led to his leaving the Earl Products Co., did he intend then to go to Dallas? Was that one of the causes for his leaving?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know what was in his mind. I don't remember. I just don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he paid?
Mr. RUBY. We paid him a lump sum, about $14,000 or $15,000, so when he left he had quite a bit of money.
Mr. HUBERT. In cash?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he had quite a bit of money.
Mr. HUBERT. And he left for Dallas shortly thereafter?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; very shortly thereafter he left.

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Mr. HUBERT. That would have been what year, sir; about?
Mr. RUBY. I think 1947; 1947.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep in contact with him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; we corresponded, not too often. We came up every few years. Of course, he came up for my mother's funeral in 1944. Then he came up for my dad's funeral.
Mr. HUBERT. He came from the service for your mother's funeral, I suppose?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. At that time he was in the service.
Mr. HUBERT. And your father died in what year?
Mr. RUBY. 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you and your brother Sam changed your name from Rubenstein to Ruby by a court proceeding for that purpose?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a coordinated decision between you and Sam?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You know, do you not, that Jack did the same thing about the same time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that coordinated with him, too?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't think so. In our conversations in telling him that we were doing it, maybe he decided to do it, but I don't know if it had any bearing at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the change of name?
Mr. RUBY. Well, first, everybody called me Ruby, even in the service, and wherever I went they called me Ruby, so that was one of the reasons to change it.
Mr. HUBERT. After Jack left did you and Sam continue in business?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. For how long?
Mr. RUBY. For possibly 8 or 9 years, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. You still lived in Chicago at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the cause of the breakup of the Earl Products Co. which then consisted of you and Sam only, and of Sam's removal to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn't like--he was supposed to handle the shop and I was handling the office and the advertising, and by this time, when I say "shop" you must understand we were now in the manufacturing business.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you manufacturing?
Mr. RUBY. We were manufacturing aluminum salt and pepper shakers, key chains, bottle openers, screw drivers, small hammers.
Mr. HUBERT. How large an operation was that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think our maximum sales there reached about a quarter of a million dollars.
Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have at the maximum?
Mr. RUBY. Its maximum we had there was probably 40 at any given time. Anyhow, he was supposed to run the shop and I was supposed to run the office, and I didn't think he was taking care of the shop the way he should, and I told him several times, and finally he says, "Well, if you can do better, you can take care of that yourself," and he didn't report to work for almost a year.
In the meantime, I was giving him his check every week. So, finally I decided after waiting that long that the only thing to do was dissolve the partnership and buy him out.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you pay him when you bought him out?
Mr. RUBY. I paid him a total of about $30,000.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you actually paid him a weekly salary check?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Although he didn't do any work at all?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing as a matter of fact during that year?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing. He was just--just nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't even see him do you mean?

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Mr. RUBY. No; I didn't see him for about almost a year.
Mr. HUBERT. And you made no effort to correct that situation?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I talked and members of the family talked to him, and finally in order to dissolve it, I even called Jack and had him come up from Dallas to see if he could, you know, make peace in the family, and he just couldn't do it.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been around 1954 or 1955?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; right in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you bought out Jack, did you continue to operate the Earl Products Co. alone?
Mr. RUBY. You mean Sam?
Mr. HUBERT. Sam I mean; yes.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I operated until 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened to the company?
Mr. RUBY. Then I sold it.
Mr. HUBERT. To whom?
Mr. RUBY. To Herschel Oliff, and the reason I sold it was I was manufacturing a line of novelties, and the Japan imports were just cutting down my business and I could see the handwriting on the wall, so I decided I had better get out while I can, which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. Then I didn't work for, oh, 6 or 8 months.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were living off of the profits?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was paying me.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the purchaser, Mr. Oliff, was paying you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he gave me so much down and so much a week so I was able to get along. Anyhow, at that time I became depressed and I was thinking of doing away with myself, so I went over to the veterans hospital in Chicago and talked to them over there, and they suggested I come in there, which I did, and I stayed a few weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were hospitalized?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; they hospitalized me in the psychopathic ward there, and I stayed there a week or two, and then I couldn't see--there were so many of us and they couldn't, at least I didn't think they were helping me, so I left one day. I just up and walked out; but then I got sick again.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you became depressed again?
Mr. RUBY. I became depressed again.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a few days.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went back?
Mr. RUBY. So I went back again. Then I decided well, the only way I can help myself, I mean I can do myself any good, is get out of this place and get a job.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you married then?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That was to your first wife then?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your second wife?
Mr. RUBY. Second wife, and I said I've got my family you know, I had better take care of them. The only thing that will help me, at least that was my thinking, is to go out and get a job and maybe that is what I need, you know, because I felt that I wouldn't be able to hold a job or something. Anyhow those were my thoughts. So, I went out and got a job for Worldwide Music in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. RUBY. They sell and place juke boxes.
The Seeberg Agency and the Rockola Distributors, a pretty big company, nice people, and I worked there about a year.
Mr. HuBERT. What was your specific job?
Mr. RUBY. I was, I would say assistant manager. I supervised the other men and the servicemen.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't actually make the contacts with the taverns?

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Mr. RUBY. Oh, I made some of those; yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the machines were solely music machines?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No slot machines?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. No slot machines. This is one of the better rated companies in this field, very nice people.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?
Mr. RUBY. I stayed with them about a year. Then my best friend's brother, my best friend's name is Mike Nemzin, his brother's name is George Marcus, that is his name legally.
Mr. HUBERT. They have different names but the fact is they are brothers?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. That is why I wanted to mention that. He owned----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "he" who do you mean?
Mr. RUBY. George Marcus; I am now speaking of.
Mr. HUBERT. The brother of your best friend?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was instrumental in my getting the other job for Worldwide Music because he knew one of the--he was in the dry cleaning business, George Marcus has today one plant in Marion, Ind. and one plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., and has a brother-in-law running each one. And we had been friends for about 25 or 30 years, and he approached me with the idea of going into business with him in another cleaning plant if we could locate a good one. You know, buy a going business, of course, and I was very much interested.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; Marcus I am speaking of.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your best friend was his brother?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were friendly with him for 25 years?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; yes. In fact, he originally helped me get started when I first came out of service. I had no money to speak of.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?
Mr. RUBY. Marcus, and he lent me $500, I think, to get started.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on and tell us what happened?
Mr. RUBY. And Marcus and I talked over the possibility of going into the cleaning business together, and he being so successful, I was very happy that he even, you know, came to me and was interested in my running the plant, because he is more or less a silent partner.
So, sure enough, we checked out a few plants and then we happened to hear of this plant in Detroit, Cobo Cleaners, that is the plant. It was originally owned by the mayor of Detroit. And we heard about this plant and we went to Detroit, checked that out and checked out the possibilities, and we decided it was a pretty good deal. And so we bought that as equal partners. And that was in 1961, October of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay for it?
Mr. RUBY. We paid for it, for the real estate and the business, $120,000.
Mr. HUBERT. And you each put up half?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Of course, we only paid so much down, you know. We didn't pay the full price, of course.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is the business you are in now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you run the operation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he is more or less silent. He lives in Glenview, Ill., a suburb of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand it, he owns these other plants that you mentioned?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And runs them through----
Mr. RUBY. The brother-in-laws. But he gave the brother-in-laws 35 percent of each one.
Mr. HUBERT. I think for the record perhaps we had better state the names of those other companies and the cities and the names of the brothers-in-law.
Mr. RUBY. OK. The name of the plant that George Marcus and his brother-

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in-law owns in Marion, Ind., is called Modern Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and his brother-in-law's name there is Harry Marks.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that his sister's husband?
Mr. RUBY. Husband, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. RUBY. And the name of the plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., is called the American Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and the brother-in-law there who is married to George Marcus' sister is Elwood Jacobs.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know those people, the two brothers-in-law?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, you know, being close to my best friend for so many years, I was always close to the family as a whole.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have no interest in those plants?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have a 50-percent interest in the Cobo plant?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did we have some indication that there was a company or something, sort of a business enterprise called the Earl Ruby Co? Will you tell us about that?
Mr. RUBY. When I sold the Earl Products Co., I sold the whole Earl Products Co. and he was supposed to pay me--he gave me so much money down, about $20,000 down, I think--and he was supposed to pay me the balance out so much a year.
Well, after he paid so much, he paid me for about a year or so, he said he can't pay me any more money, he wants to make a new deal on the balance of the money that he owed me. So we made a deal that he would only give me $10,000 more. He owed me about $30,000 or so. We settled for $10,000 in cash plus I would take over the camera manufacturing. We had a little camera we manufactured. He would give me the tools and dies of that business, and also the tools and dies to make a little nameplate that kids fasten on the back of their bicycles. So when I took that over, I had to have a company name to run it, and so I decided to call that Earl Ruby Co.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any associates in that company?
Mr. RUBY. No, no. And I since, last year I had to close that up. It was just not doing any----
Mr. HUBERT. That operation continued after you left Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. When I sold it to Oliff, you mean? Oh, yes; for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. No, no; I mean the Earl Ruby Co.?
Mr. RUBY. No. When I left Chicago, there was no Earl Ruby Co. It only became after he decided he couldn't pay me the rest of the money, then I had to start all over again.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in Detroit at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I couldn't use Earl Products because he owned that name. I sold him the name.
Mr. HUBERT. But the operation of the Earl Ruby Co. manufacturing the cameras and the bicycle plates?
Mr. RUBY. I moved it to Detroit.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you moved it to Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you operated then out of Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, but----
Mr. HUBERT. So you were operating at that time two businesses?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The cleaning and the----
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Well, the other business I don't think in all the time I had it, I don't think I did $10,000 worth of business in the 2 years that I tried to run it. It just fizzled out and now there is nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. It folded when?
Mr. RUBY. I folded it at the end of the year.
Mr. HUBERT. Which year?
Mr. RUBY. At the end of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had run it about 2 years?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, about 2 years, I would say, and there was just no more sales.

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I tried to dispose of it or sell it, but I couldn't even get a buyer, so I still own the tools and dies but there are no sales.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are just put in a warehouse, the tools and dies?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hollebrandt?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. RUBY. He is the supervisor of our plant. Is that the one you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. I believe so. What is his first name?
Mr. RUBY. Abram.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he the supervisor of Cobo?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he become so?
Mr. RUBY. About a year ago, just about a year ago, a little over a year ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did this relationship come about? Did you know him before?
Mr. RUBY. No. I had never heard of him before. When we came to Cobo Cleaners, we had a supervisor by the name of Charlie Comp, and then after my being there awhile, I could see that one of the reasons Cobo wanted to sell out was the supervisor. He just wasn't running the plant efficiently. And so I talked to my partner about replacing him and we finally decided to replace him, and we started looking for a replacement. And I mentioned it to everyone I knew, and in the cleaning industry there is different types of cleaning processes, mostly concerned with the type of soap you use, and we were using, ours is what you call a solvent plant, and we were using--I can't think of the name of the soap. Anyhow, a special soap. I just can't think of the trade name.
And the salesman or distributor in our area for this soap is Vernon Brooks, and I talked to him about getting--asked him if he knew a good supervisor, and he said he would let me know. And then in a week or whatever time passed, he called me and says, "Yes, I have a good man in Rochester, New York." And, "I think he might be interested."
So I contacted him and we had him come to Detroit so we could talk to him and interview him, and then we wanted to see what type of a plant he was running there, so Marcus, my partner, and I flew to Rochester one day and Hollebrandt showed us through the plant he was running, and we liked him. You know, he is a pretty nice fellow. And he seemed to know his stuff. So we hired him. That is how we got to know him. Other than that, I had never seen or heard of him before.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time that you first contacted Hollebrandt and the time that he actually became the supervisor? What period of time elapsed?
Mr. RUBY. I would say a couple of months anyhow. It took a couple of months. Yes, it took a few months.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Oscar Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Oscar Robinson?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person who lives at South Haven, Mich., particularly at an address 58 Lakeshore Drive?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, I know those people.
Mr. HUBERT. In South Haven, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. I know their name is Ruby. I didn't know his last name. My in-laws own the cottage next door to them, 56 Lakeshore Drive, and so I used to go up there on weekends, but I didn't know his last name was Oscar.
Mr. HUBERT. No, I didn't say his last name is Oscar. I think it is either Ruby or Robinson. What did you know his last name to be?
Mr. RUBY. Ruby, the same as mine.
Mr. HUBERT. But he is not related to you?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And he had a cottage which is next door to----
Mr. RUBY. My in-laws.
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife's----

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Mr. RUBY. Family.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Harry C. Futterman?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, that is my wife's brother-in-law. He is married to my wife's sister.
Mr. HUBERT. What does he do for a living?
Mr. RUBY. He worked for the post office until he retired a few years ago, and now he works for a brother-in-law of his who is in the lumber business.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. He lives at 7209 Northeast Prairie, in Lincolnwood, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. Lincoln?
Mr. RUBY. Wood.
Mr. HUBERT. Lincolnwood?
Mr. RUBY. A suburb of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Colley Sullivan?
Mr. RUBY. Colley Sullivan?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. RUBY. No, no, it doesn't register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Dominick or Dominic Scorta or Siorta?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Anesi Umberto?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think that is the one.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him.
Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I did business with--no, that is another name. I know a fellow by the name of Mario Anesi.
Mr. HUBERT. And who is he?
Mr. RUBY. He is the fellow that used to make all our tools and dies in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Tools and dies for the Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I thought that is who you were talking about. Anesi Umberto, no, I don't know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Mario Umberto?
Mr. RUBY. Maybe that is the same fellow. I know him by Mario Anesi.
Mr. HUBERT. A-n-e-s-i?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know how you spell his name. I am not even sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen or had any contact with this gentleman in the last year or so?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was just here, he was just in Detroit for the tool convention or whatever they call them, and he called me just to say hello, because he has tools and dies of mine in his place yet, old things, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was just in the last few weeks, I gather.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. That was about a month ago. That is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that contact with him, when was the next previous contact?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he makes the camera shutters, camera shutter parts for me, and I saw him in Chicago a little more than a year ago. I stopped in to discuss changing--it is probably a year-and-a-half ago---changing the die for one of the parts.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any telephone conversations with him in that interval, during that period?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What would it have been about?
Mr. RUBY. Only about tools and dies. In fact, I tried to sell him the tools and dies for the nameplate.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. RUBY. Right after I took it over from Mr. Oliff.
Mr. HUBERT. It would have been about a little over 2 years ago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and then I would have to talk to him once in awhile about ordering the pars, if I were in Chicago I would call him and tell him what I need or something like that. But I know him as Mario Anesi.
Mr. HUBERT. And you do know as far as your memory serves you, either a person called Anesi Umberto or a person called Mario Umberto?
Mr. RUBY. No.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone whose last name is Umberto, U-m-b-e-r-t-o?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone by the name of Kirk Bibul?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a person by the name of Elliott Schwartz?
Mr. RUBY. Elliott Schwartz, he is married to another sister of my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. New York.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to contact him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I see him, he comes in for events, marriages, bar mitzvahs and all that stuff. In fact, I wanted to call him last night because I am so close.
Mr. HUBERT. It is a social relationship, social and family?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No business relationship?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I was going to have him manufacture the nameplates for me, when I couldn't sell them to Mario Anesi, he told me business was bad up in New York, so I sent the tools and dies there, but we never used them, never got any sales, so the tools and dies for the nameplates are just there not being used at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Edward A. Cobo was the owner of the Cobo Cleaners prior to the time you bought it out?
Mr. RUBY. The junior, I bought it from the junior, his mother and his sister. I think Cobo himself had passed away several years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was mayor.
Mr. RUBY. His brother, A1 Cobo, was the mayor, but A1 and Edward Cobo owned Cobo Cleaners. The mayor owns half of it.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you bought it, the mayor had died?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And his interest had passed to his family, I take it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; to probably, I don't know but I think it probably passed to his brother and then his brother passed away and then the interest went to the brother's wife and son and daughter, and that is who we bought it from.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Buddy Heard?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with a company called the Anran Tool and Manufacturing Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Are you sure it is Anran and not Anson?
Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it is Anson.
Mr. RUBY. That is owned by Mario Anesi and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. So that any contacts you would have had with that company was really what you were talking about a little while ago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. They made all the parts for us and tools and dies for, oh, 10 years or more.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't know if you stated what Mario Anesi's brother's name was.
Mr. RUBY. One's name is Burt, that is how I know him by, Burt, and he has another brother. I don't even know his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they all in this company?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; now, Burt could possibly be Umberto, I don't know, because Burt is an unusual name for Italian people.
Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that your contacts in the last 2 years say with the Anesi's or the Anson Tool and Manufacturing Company have been as you have stated in regard to the dies and the manufacture of shutters and so on?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.? Have you had any contact with that company?
Mr. RUBY. Triangle? What do they make?
I once had a Triangle many years ago that made-- I think it is Triangle-- made a set of cutting dies for me. I don't know if it is the same company.

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Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, I think. But I had very little--if I remember, it was one order. But there are so many Triangles. I even think many years ago I bought some cartons from a Triangle Carton Company, but you are saying manufacturing company. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. The Triangle Manufacturing Co. that I am thinking of is in Oshkosh, Wis.
Mr. RUBY. It don't sound familiar at all. Does it say what they make because in the years we were manufacturing we used to buy parts and things from all over the country. But it doesn't seem to register with me at all, Oshkosh.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of having made a telephone call to that company on November 1?
Mr. RUBY. What year?
Mr. HUBERT. 1963.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, then I think I know who that is. I think, I am not sure now, I think they make, what do you call it, bearings. I think they make bearings, and the reason I called them, if it is the right company, I am not even sure of that, is that my brother Jack wanted to make, had seen this twistboard, it is a little board with a bearing underneath it, and you stand on it and you learn to twist that way, and he, knowing that I had been in manufacturing and knew all about manufacturing, asked me if I could find out where to get this type of bearing. It was a usual, simple, very inexpensive type. So I don't know how I got their name. I think I called somebody. I learned of somebody that was selling them or making them around Detroit, and I called them.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean making those bearings?
Mr. RUBY. Making the whole twistboard, and I think they referred me to Triangle, and I called them, if that is the correct company, and had them send me a sample and a quotation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anything come of it?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack propose to do so far as you know?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was going to, you know----
Mr. HUBERT. Manufacture it?
Mr. RUBY. Have somebody make it and distribute it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you?
Mr. RUBY. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that name because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they send the sample?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do with it?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part, and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you have got to put it in a box and package it, you can't come out, because you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You can't work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about getting in it, so that was the end of that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this business?
Mr. RUBY. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners. But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn't see it, and it was a good thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit area and it was a flop, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently this item wasn't patented.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New York City?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother.

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Mr. HUBERT. What is that corporation? What do they do?
Mr. RUBY. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was your interest in those products?
Mr. RUBY. That is my brother-in-law.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your brother-in-law?
Mr. RUBY. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about. That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in- law on the wife's side.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a company, called the James Welch Co.?
Mr. RUBY. James Welch? No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an organization called the Ypsilanti Buffing Co.
Mr. RUBY. Never heard of it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that organization?
Mr. RUBY. No. Are they in Detroit?
Mr. HUBERT. I don't know.
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. It doesn't register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Troy Plating Co.?
Mr. RUBY. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know?
Mr. HUBERT. I don't know.
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall that name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with an organization called the General Scientific Corp.?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21?
Mr. RUBY. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes, yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now.
In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn't seem to find anyone in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling the Troy Co.
Mr. RUBY. I can't think of any other reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta?
Mr. RUBY. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make some for me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Berger Products Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn't strike a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall that?
Mr. RUBY. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them. But that doesn't strike a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with Mike Nemzin.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my partner.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall that conversation?
Mr. RUBY. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

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Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because George, his brother, told me he was very sick.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call him?
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall. Probably at his place of business.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at a place called Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No. We have customers there, but I don't know them personally.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they send in a garment and there is a hole in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Walled Lake near Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; very close.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do have customers that come from that far?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking Co. in Denver?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out of them. So I called them several times.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg?
Mr. RUBY. What is his first name?
Mr. HUBERT. Barney.
Mr. RUBY. It doesn't register with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield.
Mr. RUBY. Delderfield.
Mr. HUBERT. Delderfield?
Mr. RUBY. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. He lives in California.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. RUBY. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you have had occasion to call him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that about and when was it approximately?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall, probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why I called him.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to--go ahead.
Mr. RUBY. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him once or twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don't remember calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who lives in Seattle, Wash.?
Mr. RUBY. Sidney Jaffe?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

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Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Of any contact with a man by that name?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of Chasin?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the Jaffe family?
Mr. RUBY. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe.
Mr. HUBERT. That is a lady?
Mr. RUBY. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 20 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?
Mr. RUBY. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his father's name was?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sisters?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Rosalyn Jaffe?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of the Jaffe girls?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.?
Mr. RUBY. Muncie? No; I don't think I know anyone at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been there?
Mr. RUBY. I don't think so; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested in Jack Ruby's twistboard enterprise?
Mr. RUBY. All I know is that he sent him a sample.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially interested?
Mr. RUBY. That I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to get you financially interested.
Mr. RUBY. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don't you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I met him in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long ago?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your meeting him?
Mr. RUBY. Through Jack. Jack introduced us.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business with him?
Mr. RUBY. I didn't have any business with him. No business was discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. RUBY. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don't know. At least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am not sure.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any financial dealings with him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?
Mr. RUBY. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I did, and I'm sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven't located the check as yet. I don't remember whether I sent the check to Jack or Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]
Mr. HUBERT. Did he owe you any money at any time?
Mr. RUBY. Me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Ralph Paul?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.
Mr. RUBY. That went through my company, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come to be indebted?
Mr. RUBY. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?
Mr. RUBY. I think to organize the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure, than one amount, that is.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that transaction in general.
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall. I would have to see--I don't recall when I sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul, that is to say to sue him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.
Mr. RUBY. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don't recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can't think of the new name, because I was out of the picture then.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.
Mr. RUBY. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to send it.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we approach it in another way.
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall the complete details on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the organization of a club.
Mr. RUBY. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was some other club before.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you then how much he needed?
Mr. RUBY. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean $6,000?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a loan?
Mr. RUBY. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the note for the money that you sent down?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think something--I am not sure because it was handled more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.

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Mr. HUBERT. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the original sending of the money.
Mr. RUBY. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check.
Mr. HUBERT. To organize the company?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there was a loan made of some sort, you see.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what it really was.
Mr. RUBY. I am really not sure. I am really not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of money without investigating the possibility?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it was my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever loaned him money before?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have got it back?
Mr. RUBY. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I loaned him money that I didn't get back.
Mr. HUBERT. Since he was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never took any notes from him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don't recall all the details on that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that he made from you?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much would you say that he owes you now then?
Mr. RUBY. Altogether?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't mean including the money you may have expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date.
Mr. RUBY. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent him.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never got anything in return for it?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could not collect?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't think----
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever hiring any lawyers in Dallas or in the Dallas area for that purpose?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you clarify for us in anyway at all what this entry means?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I explained it to my accountant, and he said that is how you write it off, as far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you simply gave him the facts?
Mr. RUBY. The facts.
Mr. HUBERT. And he is the one who drew up the return?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think his name is on the front of this. It would have been Mr.----
Mr. RUBY. Let me see. Harold Kaminsky.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't one of your sisters married----
Mr. RUBY. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law.
Mr. HUBERT. Which sister is this?
Mr. RUBY. Eileen.
Mr. HUBERT. She married Harold Kaminsky?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He is an accountant, is he?

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Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he handled this for you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You gave him these details?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack after 1960?
Mr. RUBY. After 1960?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. I don't remember the exact figure.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur?
Mr. RUBY. It must have been just about 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking about?
Mr. RUBY. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't know that you would have been able to take a loss for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for 1960.
Mr. RUBY. I say I don't recall. I don't recall the exact--I would have to check my records and see when I sent it down.
Mr. HUBERT. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. We have a regular set of books.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners?
Mr. RUBY. No; even before that.
Mr., HUBERT. You mean you have a personal set of books?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and statements.
Mr. HUBERT. You still have retained those?
Mr. RUBY. I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962?
Mr. RUBY. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited Cuba, Havana. I don't know if it was in April, and I may have talked to him. But I don't know, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You are acquainted with Jack's visit to Havana?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know he went there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go there once or more than once?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, once.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that that was in 1959?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn't have made any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don't remember any, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anybody in Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have?
Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I can't think of anyone. I knew of the fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him?
Mr. RUBY. Jack told me about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that in the early part of this year, specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him that you thought it was a telegram?
Mr. RUBY. There should be some record of it if I did. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone calls were properly deductible business expenses?

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Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a telegram?
Mr. RUBY. I don't see why. I don't recall sending a telegram. I can't think of why it would be in 1962. I can't think of any reason for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that someone else could have called and charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account?
Mr. RUBY. I doubt it. I just can't imagine who in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit already?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I can't think of any reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any policy in your business about getting approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage that aspect?
Mr. RUBY. No; I mean I don't watch it that close because we have so many. Wouldn't we know, or isn't there somebody where we sent it so it could refresh my memory? I don't think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly Praskins?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago, would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything about that?
Mr. RUBY. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does this go back? It doesn't register with me at all.
Mr. HUBERT. This would have been in May of 1963.
Mr. RUBY. The name doesn't register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.?
Mr. RUBY. I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used your phone and done that?
Mr. RUBY. I don't think they would. The only possibility, if my brother Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would ask me first, I think.
[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to continue using my camera as a premium.]
Mr. HUBERT. Did he visit you during the year 1963?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the year?
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the spring?
Mr. RUBY. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it about a year ago?
Mr. RUBY. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the territory he stops in.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a breather for a minute.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has some questions to ask you, so let's get back on the record with the statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning, and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be under oath throughout? Do you agree to that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to save some time. All right, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn't recognize the name of Dominic

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Scorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with anybody like that?
Mr. RUBY. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn't recognize the name of a man named Kirk Bibul?
Mr. RUBY. That is right; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern University or in Evanston?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn't sound familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are your children of college age?
Mr. RUBY. No; the oldest one is only 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or business phone?
Mr. RUBY. The only thing I can think of, I don't know, is he a music teacher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher?
Mr. RUBY. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern to send my children to him for piano lessons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this?
Mr. RUBY. It has got to be 3 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is while you lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the years 1962 and 1963?
Mr. RUBY. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your consent?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with you first, let's put it that way?
Mr. RUBY. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that I can think of. That is about all.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25 or 30 calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call girl will be calling them any number of times during the month.
Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have during this period? I know it would vary, but an average?
Mr. RUBY. Probably 50.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the phones are in the office?
Mr. RUBY. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody could use.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a pay phone?
Mr. RUBY. We have a pay phone and a company phone.
Mr. HUBERT. What are the numbers of each ? What is the pay phone number?
Mr. RUBY.. The pay phone I don't know. They took that out. I don't know what that is. I never use it.
Mr. HUBERT. It is still there?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the number of the regular?
Mr. RUBY. 860-3400.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. RUBY. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the girls are. We have an extension phone in my office.
Mr. HUBERT. Are those all on the same line, the same number?

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Mr. RUBY. 0400, 1, 2, and 3.
Mr. HUBERT. There are really three numbers?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is 863--I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don't even have my own number.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those phones other than the public phone?
Mr. RUBY. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don't suppose you have heard of them. We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when? Because we didn't take over Hudson's until December of 1962, so those numbers wouldn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about 1963?
Mr. RUBY. 1963, yes; we had this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those numbers?
Mr. RUBY. 863-0566.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would have access to those office phones as it were?
Mr. RUBY. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up and use it.
Mr. HUBERT. To make long distance phone calls?
Mr. RUBY. No. As far as long distance, I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked the long distance records in any way?
Mr. RUBY. I don't check them too carefully because we make so many. My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the Benton Harbor plant.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't spot check it to see that----
Mr. RUBY. No; I really don't spot check it that closely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if we could get from Mr. Ruby, maybe if you would make a note of this, to provide us with a list of all of your office employees for the year 1963?
Mr. RUBY. You don't know if this is a music teacher, do you? Probably my wife called.
Mr. HUBERT. We are speaking generally now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are speaking generally. First of all, I am not addressing myself to Mr. Bibul. Right now we are just addressing ourselves to the general problem who else might have used your phone. Do you think you could provide us----
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure; that is no problem.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With a list of all of the office employees which you had?
Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is no problem.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can limit that to the year 1963.
Mr. RUBY. When you say provide a list, what do you want?
Mr. HUBERT. You want from April of 1962, don't you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us the month of April of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. During the lunch period if you have a chance you might be able to write that down too.
Mr. RUBY. You are talking of all office employees April 1962. Well, we had some changes, several of them, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you can skip the remaining months and give us all of 1963.
Mr. RUBY. You just want their names. You don't want any addresses or phone numbers or anything, just their names?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can give us addresses also we would appreciate it.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I can take it off the employee payroll card. I can give you the whole thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gives us names, addresses and telephone numbers.
Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to ask my wife specifically about that call to Northwestern University?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because that may answer that one. What is that name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kirk Bibul.
Mr. RUBY. And that was in April 1962?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. RUBY. That would be before that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that was after.
Mr. RUBY. Before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the latter part of 1962 and the first part of 1963.
Mr. RUBY. Late 1962 and 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And early 1963. I believe also you indicated to Mr. Hubert that you didn't recognize the name of the Ypsilanti Buffing Co. as anybody that you had dealt with.
Mr. HUBERT. Or maybe you did identify that one.
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't think so. Now when was this about? Maybe this had to do with polishing or plating that same basket that we use in our dry cleaning operation. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Public Vending Corp?
Mr. RUBY. No; Public Vending, where are they located? Is that a long distance call, you say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a long distance call. When did you have this problem with the plating that required some work?
Mr. RUBY. Last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of last year would that have been?
Mr. RUBY. No, excuse me; yes, the end of last year, that is right, the end of last year, and that is when I think if they could do that, and I may have called. I used the yellow pages. I tried to get information from anyone as to who could do it, so Ypsilanti, and they may have said no and I crossed it out of my mind immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the General Scientific Corp. is not a corporation that you recognize?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; oh, yes. We bought lenses from them for the camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Berger Products?
Mr. RUBY. That don't register with me. What city? That isn't in Cleveland, is it, by chance, because I just called Berger Products I think Monday, but that wouldn't be on there. That is this Monday. See, we buy different articles from different parts of the country, and it is hard to remember each one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these purchases in connection with your drycleaning business or some other business?
Mr. RUBY. Which, Troy? That was for the drycleaning. The lens, that was for my camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked him, Mr. Hubert, about what percentage of his time is spent with----
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some idea what percentage of your time is spent with the camera company and what percentage with the drycleaning business?
Mr. RUBY. The camera company is practically nil. In fact, it is out of business now. Over a 2-year period I only did about $10,000 gross sales, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Last year how much of your time was devoted to the camera company?
Mr. RUBY. When you say time, actually I took care of it more or less out of my home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any other businesses last year besides the camera company and the drycleaning business?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I had the nameplate business. That all comes under Earl Ruby Co., both of those.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time did the nameplate business take?
Mr. RUBY. Very little. I don't think I did a thousand dollars in the last 2 years on that, so you can imagine how much time that took up. And then that is dead now. In fact, the orders were so small that instead of manufacturing the plates myself, for which I have the tools and dies, I had somebody else do it for me that makes a similar item.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of nameplates are they?
Mr. RUBY. A little plate 3 inches by 6 inches made out of metal. It is very

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similar to the design of your license plate, but we would put the children's name on it, like John Jones, and they would fasten it to the back of their bicycle or their wagon or what have you. This was a box top deal item that we used, Armour's Meats used it several years ago. They send in a box top from Armour's franks with 25 cents, and you get the plate, things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you held the dies on it?
Mr. RUBY. I own them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You own the dies, but you were going to have somebody else manufacture them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did, because it didn't pay for me to set up to make 100 plates, because it just wasn't worth it, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the manufacturing?
Mr. RUBY. Dixie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this your brother-in-law's company?
Mr. RUBY. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dixie?
Mr. RUBY. Dixie, no; that is just some people I never even met, but I knew that they made a very similar plate, exactly the same size but slightly different in design, and that I could substitute this for mine. Actually, his was a better plate. It was made out of aluminum, which I did. And so that it wasn't necessary for me to go through all the bother and expense to set up my operation to make the plate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Atlanta?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the Berger Products Co. is in Philadelphia.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, Berger Products. They made a plate, and the reason I called them, I have got to go back. When I sold my company, Earl Products, the fellow I sold it to couldn't pay me all the money. So we made a new deal. He gave me some money and some of the operation back. That is how I got back the camera and the nameplate. Berger is also in the nameplate manufacturing business, and I wanted to sell him the nameplate business if I could. That is why I called him. Now I know. It is Philadelphia. That must be the Berger Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Mr. Hubert ask you if you knew anybody at the Mar-Din Co.?
Mr. RUBY. No; he didn't ask me that. Yes; I know those people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know them?
Mr. RUBY. They were one of our best accounts years ago when I first got into manufacturing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; the Earl Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did they purchase from you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they purchased aluminum salt and pepper shaker sets. That was the main item. And then they also purchased some hammer and screwdriver sets, because at that time I was manufacturing those, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you deal with these people while your brother Jack was connected with Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack know these people?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the Mar-Din Co. do?
Mr. RUBY. They are distributors of general merchandise, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they do any manufacturing that you know of?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't thing so, not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the nature of their distribution? Is it mail order or direct sale?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it is both. I think some mail order and they have salesmen, which would mean direct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with Jack, your brother Jack, about the Mar-Din Co. at anytime last year?

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Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think when he was talking about--I am not sure now, but I think that he brought up their name when he was talking to me about going into the manufacture of the twistboard, and he thought they would be a very good outlet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what you suggested to him?
Mr. RUBY. No; I am not even sure of that. I can't remember a conversation that took place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls from Jack in the month of November before the episode down in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked about the twistboard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many calls do you recall receiving from him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, at least three or four, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all in connection with the twistboard?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to try to reflect on these calls and see if we can't discuss them one by one. If you can, try to think about the first time he called you and the next time, and so forth, so that we can ascertain how your dealings with him progressed?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think the first conversation was probably to the effect that he had a good item, and he was going to send me one, and he told me something about it, it is a terrific item, and he wants to get into the manufacture of it, if he could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you one of them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did. In fact he sent me, I think he sent me a half dozen. No; the first time he only sent me two, and then when I was down in Dallas, you know, for the trial and so forth, I brought back a half dozen for my kids, and so on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were interested then in the project?
Mr. RUBY. No; not for myself. He wanted me to see if I could locate people to make the parts at the least possible cost. He wanted to get into the manufacture in Dallas, and he mentioned to me, because I was trying to discourage him, because first of all he don't know too much about manufacturing, and to set up for one item, which I didn't think was such a tremendous item, I thought was a little bit ridiculous. And then he said that he would have the Goodwill organization assemble it for him. I don't know if you are familiar with their complete operation, but they will assemble items for you at a very reasonable rate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Goodwill Industries?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that going to be done in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. In Dallas. So then he sent me the sample, and somehow I think this Triangle manufacturing came up. He may have mentioned it. I am not sure because I don't remember every word of the conversation going back that far. I think I called Triangle, if that is their name. I am not even sure of that. He called me and he said, he might have said, "call them and see what you can do." Anyhow, I contacted a couple of people in Detroit that I thought might know something about the twistboard, because he told me it was so tremendous in Dallas I figured it's got to be known here in Detroit, although I had never even seen it. So I asked--I happened to call a fellow that is a salesman for toys and novelties and things of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. RUBY. I can't even think. I know his first name is Henry, I can't even think of his last name, and he said it is a flop, it is a dead item here. They tried it and it didn't go over. So I think in one of the conversations I no doubt told Jack that, and anyhow I got a sample and I think it was of this part that we needed, the bearing part for this twistboard. Maybe I had better describe it. It is a little board, fiberboard about 12 inches square and it sets on a bearing like, and the bearing has another piece of press wood under it, and if you stand on it and you twist, you twist around. That is what the item was. And I couldn't see it, especially it was selling for $3. I couldn't see it. I just didn't think anything of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Jack was enthusiastic about it?

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Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; he was very enthused. He was going to get started.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to dissuade him at all from his enthusiasm?
Mr. RUBY. I think so, I think so. I really don't know. As far as I know, I think I did. I told him it just doesn't pay to get into it, because the one that was being marketed, if I recall he told me was selling for $3. So he said if he could sell his for $2, it would be tremendous. But I figured out the cost to him about 80 cents and if you sell the jobbers, you have got to give them 50 and 10 off. By the way, I have gone all through this with him but I just want to make it clear. So that means he is going to get 90 cents. In addition they want 2 percent, so you get 88 cents, approximately, and it costs you 80 cents, so you can't be in business on 8 cents gross profit on an item that you are selling for 88 cents. It is just impossible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in which telephone conversation did you have this discussion?
Mr. RUBY. In one of them, not the first one, because I didn't have all the information then. But after I got all the information, I called him or he called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack calling you after the telephone call, a few days after the telephone call that was made in connection with Triangle? Do you remember that telephone call?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think so, and that is when I told him I think they wanted 45 cents, and that is when I broke down the price structure, that it just didn't seem feasible to consider manufacturing it if you had to sell it at $2 and I probably told him at that time, I checked into it and it was a flop in Detroit, so it was my opinion it wasn't good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you in November about anything other than the twistboard?
Mr. RUBY. I don't think so. I think the only thing we discussed other than--maybe how is the family, you know, how are your kids, which is the general conversation when two brothers talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you in connection with Eva's illness?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he did mention that, that she was going to have an operation, she was going to have an operation, she had an operation, and he said, "I think you should call her or write her" or something. I don't know, I may have even called her in the hospital, I really don't remember, but he said she was feeling very bad, and for me to either write her, send her a card or call her, and I don't know what I did. I did something but I don't remember exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While Jack was living in Dallas, had you talked with him about other business ventures that he had, outside of his clubs?
Mr. RUBY. Well, a few years ago I talked to him about, he had a vitamin called Miniron, or something like that. In fact, I tried to discourage him about that, but I couldn't, and in fact I think if I remember correctly, I sent him some money to try it, but it just didn't go. It was a vitamin, a liquid vitamin of some kind that he thought was terrific. He was always taking diet pills and stuff like that. He was whatever the name for that is. Anyhow, he went for all kinds of diet remedies that came on the market. But it never seemed to help him much because he liked to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of when he was selling these diet pills or these vitamin pills?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, it is a few years back. It had to be--it was a liquid. I don't think it was a pill. It was a bottle of some kind. In fact, he sent me some. It is several years back, I mean 4, 5 or 6 or 7. I don't remember exactly. It was several years ago I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall your activities of the weekend of November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr. RUBY. The 22d, Friday, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I was at work drycleaning when we heard the news on the radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That the President had been shot?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; first shot. Then we were waiting for additional news, and then finally it came through that he was dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the drycleaning plant that day?

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Mr. RUBY. Gee, I would say probably until 6 o'clock. That is my usual hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. Friday I always go home to dinner Friday night because it is traditional in our family. Jewish people, we have a big meal on Friday nights, so very, very seldom would I miss a Friday night dinner. I am quite sure I went home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any specific recollection of what you did Friday night?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was deeply upset, like most everybody else, I think, and I went home I know at 6 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of going home And being at home on Friday night?
Mr. RUBY. No; not specific, but I can't see what else I would have done but go home to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the evening after you ate, Friday evening?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your practice to go to religious services on Friday?
Mr. RUBY. You wouldn't go on Friday night, would you? No; I don't go on Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you of the Jewish faith?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a particular temple or synagogue?
Mr. RUBY. More or less, yes, but I am not what you call Orthodox. The Orthodox, you know, just like other religions, they go every chance they get more or less. But I am not of the Orthodox.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the temple or synagogue that you belong to, when does it regularly hold services?
Mr. RUBY. It probably holds them--I don't know. I know they have them Saturday. Saturday they always have services. I don't think they have services there Friday night. They don't have services on Friday night as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your own religious practices when you were living in Chicago with Jack? Did your practices and feelings at that time differ from his?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say--can you make that a little more clear?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back to the time when you and Jack saw each other regularly when you were in Chicago, when Jack was in Chicago, were your religious practices the same as they are now? Were you any more religious then? Did you observe the holidays more closely?
Mr. RUBY. You want to compare Jack with myself?
Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me ask you about your own practice.
Mr. RUBY. Well, you must understand, first, that it is very unusual for a Jewish boy not to be bar mitzvah.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking about particular ceremonies, but I am asking you about the regular habits of weekly attendance and so forth. Did they differ in the period before 1948 from the way they are now?
Mr. RUBY. Mine?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say I go more often since I got married, of course, because that is the Jewish tradition. When you get married, you have children, my kids go to Hebrew school, they went to parochial school, in fact my son graduated from the Hebrew school in Chicago, and so I would say I am more religious since we have children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were single in Chicago, how did your religious practices differ from Jack's?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say he was a little more religious than I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he attend the synagogue or temple more often than you did?
Mr. RUBY. I would say more often than I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go regularly?
Mr. RUBY. I wouldn't say regularly, but he did go more often than I did.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times a year would he go other than on high holidays?
Mr. RUBY. This goes back so many years. You know he has been away more or less from me for 17 years now, so it is pretty hard to remember. And you know he is not the only one in the family. We still have six more children. I can't even remember all their birthdays, remembering who went where on holidays.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don't have a specific recollection, I don't want to ask you the question, then. Let's go back to the 22d, 23d, and the 24th. Do you recall what you did on Saturday, the 23d?
Mr. RUBY. I think I went to work, the usual time, probably 7:30, and probably worked until 6 o'clock. Saturday is a busy day for us, and probably went home so far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the word "probably." Are you indicating that you don't really have any specific recollection of what you did that Saturday?
Mr. RUBY. I would say I probably went home, but I am not sure. I would have to check with my wife to make sure. I don't think we went out, because we were in deep mourning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were, or you were not?
Mr. RUBY. I said we were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in deep mourning?
Mr. RUBY. So I don't think we would have gone any place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean when you said you were in deep mourning?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we cried a lot in our family when this happened, I mean actual tears.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when this happened? Can you describe to us where and when and who was present? What was happening around you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I don't know exactly what our--but I know after this happened, probably on Friday night, my wife was definitely in tears at that time, and I was, too. We both greatly admired him. In fact, my wife on many occasions, even before the incident, she just loved him. There was nobody greater than President Kennedy. She made a statement many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you both registered Democrats?
Mr. RUBY. I was a Democrat all my life. In fact, I worked for the Democratic headquarters in Chicago many years ago. All our family has been Democrats all our lives, as far as I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did Sunday morning?
Mr. RUBY. On the 26th? Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The 24th.
Mr. RUBY. The 24th. We needed some electrical work done at the plant, and the only time to do it without interfering with production was to have it done on Sunday morning. So I had the electrician come in on Sunday, and I met him there, I think, about 10 o'clock probably, Sunday morning, at the plant to do this work, and I was there until--I just wanted to get them started, and I had one of my other employees there to watch things, you know, because we had an outside contractor, electrical contractor here to do the work, and there is a lot of clothing there and we wanted to be careful if they worked on the ceiling that they didn't drop dirt on the clothing and so forth.
So I left. I was there maybe 2 hours, I don't remember, anyhow I wasn't in the car but 5 minutes or so driving one of the other employees--another employee who stopped in home--I was en route to drive him home. We had the radio tuned in. That is when I heard--no, before I left this Mike Nemzin, who is my best friend, and his brother is my partner, he was in the hospital with an operation----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The brother or Mike Nemzin?
Mr. RUBY. Mike Nemzin. He had some kind of surgery on his ribs or something, a very serious one, though, and so I thought I would call him to see how he was.
So I called him Sunday morning, it must have been about 12 o'clock, from the plant, I was at the plant, mind you, and as I am talking to him, he is in his bed in the hospital, he is watching television or radio and he says to me, "I can't talk to you. Somebody just shot Oswald," he says.

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"I'll talk to you some other time." You know, because we were all excited, especially he was. So I hung up. And we didn't have the radio on in the plant, but we left a few minutes thereafter. And in the car, as I said, about 5 minutes later, as I am in the car driving, just drove probably a mile from the plant, which wouldn't take more than 5 minutes, it comes through on the radio that Oswald has been shot and the fellow that did the shooting is Jack Ruby, owner of the Carousel Night Club in Dallas, and I immediately knew it was my brother because that was the name of the club he owned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say you were riding with someone at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?
Mr. RUBY. Jim Stewart.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work for you?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located now; do you know?
Mr. RUBY. Right now he is in the hospital, Receiving Hospital in Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I was very upset, of course, and he said--I was driving--he said, "You had better pull over to the curb. You just turned white as a ghost."
So I pulled over for a second or for a few minutes to recuperate my senses, so to speak. And then I said, "I had better take you home," which I did. Then I went home. I drove home, and I called my sister in Chicago. I don't even know which one I called. There is two of them. And they knew about it, of course, by that time, too. This was a half hour later and they probably heard it on the air. And they were all upset, of course. And I said, "Well, I had better come to Chicago." So I called the airport and I flew to Chicago Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the cleaning plant after you finished talking with Mike Nemzin?
Mr. RUBY. Just a couple of minutes, just a few minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what other people were in the plant at that time?
Mr. RUBY. When I talked to Mike Nemzin?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. The electrician, I think, and his helper, he had a helper, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the electrician?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us his name?
Mr. RUBY. The trade name, I think, is Marco Electrical Contractors, and his first name is Marty. That is with a "c". It is a little bit of an odd name, but I have it available there if it is necessary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His last name starts with a "c"?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that is where he got this Marco. And then, of course, as I told you I flew to Chicago, and my brother met me at the airport, if I am not mistaken, Hyman, and this was already before I could get reservations and get the plane and pack some clothes and all. It was late in the afternoon, and I think I arrived there, if I am not mistaken, probably 6 o'clock in Chicago, and it takes about an hour to get there.
Anyhow, no sooner I got in the house, you know, of course, the reporters were calling and it was a real--we tried not to talk to everyone, to anyone, if I recall.
When I got there, then my sister said that there were some men at the door and they said they were FBI men or special agents, and she thought they were reporters so she wouldn't let them in, and she was hysterical now, to put it straight. And so then we got a call. We did answer the phone, of course, and we got a call from an agent, I can't remember his name, but he said that they want to get in and talk to us and we wouldn't let anybody in. You know, we just wouldn't let anybody in. So he says, "Here is a number and call this number and my name is"--one of them was White, and I can't think of the other one, one of the agents in Chicago. "Call this number and they will verify this that we are special agents." So I said OK. So I went out to a pay station and called, and sure enough they said yes, they are agents, and so I walked back into the house the back way, and I saw them standing in the front, by the way. You know, there were about three or four of them. And I told my sister we had

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better let them in, they are special agents, which we did. There were four, I think. Four agents came in at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did they interview you and your brother and your sister?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; all of us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you being interviewed simultaneously by the Bureau?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; in different parts of the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while you were being interviewed, one or more of your brothers and sisters were also being interviewed.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked to one sister, I think one agent talked to her in the kitchen or dining room or another part of the house, and one or two were with us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the Secret Service agents had talked to you, had you had a chance to talk with any of your family in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Had I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, at the time that the FBI talked to you, did you have an opportunity to talk with any of your family in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. I don't think I even had time. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall having talked to them?
Mr. RUBY. No; but I don't think so at all. There was just not enough time. I called Chicago, if I recall that is all I called. I don't think I called Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Hyman or your sisters in Chicago had a chance to talk with Eva or Sam?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago and talked with Sam----
Mr. RUBY. With Hy, you mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With Hy, yes--did you discuss any contacts that Hyman had had with Jack over the weekend?
Mr. RUBY. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Chicago on the 24th?
Mr. RUBY. I just remained overnight and went back to Detroit, because my wife called me late at night, I don't know what time it was, very late anyhow, and she said, "You had better come home. The reporters are just driving me crazy." She was terribly upset. So the next morning I flew back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Chicago, did you make any plans with respect to obtaining an attorney for your brother?
Mr. RUBY. While I was there for that little while?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No; but I think if I recall correctly Tom Howard was already in the picture. I heard his name. I didn't talk to him, but as far as I know I heard his name on the air, that he was representing Jack, or something to that effect. At least I think so. But I don't know if that was before I left for Detroit or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your meeting with your brothers and sisters in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they were upset and they suggested I come there. So I came there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussion as to what you could do for Jack?
Mr. RUBY. We probably did, but there was nothing definite made, no definite arrangements. I know that I called, I think, Tom Howard. He was the first attorney, if you remember, to represent Jack, Monday morning after I arrived back home, because when I arrived there we had police at the house already, and the chief of police and my wife came down to meet me at the plane, and en route back my wife was telling me how the newspaper reporters were bothering her, they wouldn't let her sleep. They were there until 2 o'clock in the morning and whatnot, you know. So I didn't know what to do. So I asked the chief of police--his name is Sackett--a very nice man--what would he suggest. They all wanted information, a press conference or what. He said, "If I were you, the only way you are going to get rid of them is give them a press conference." But I didn't know if that was the correct thing to do, so I am quite sure I called Tom Howard and told him who I was and told him that all these news people wanted a press conference and what should I do. And I told him what

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the sheriff, the police chief, had suggested, and he says, "Well, there is no harm. You might as well do it and get it over with."
So we called a press conference, I think it was, for 2 o'clock in the afternoon, something like that, and our rabbi came over, Rabbi Adler, and then I think right after that, I think some special agents called and came in or came over, and I think there were some there in the evening. Again, I think they came. And that ended that day. That was Monday. And then we started talking about attorneys and what to do and who to use.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say, "we started talking about it." Who was this?
Mr. RUBY. I talked to the family, and I talked to--we talked back and forth so many times. I am talking about Chicago, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. And I think they were in touch with Dallas. I think Eva and Sam, they were talking back and forth, more or less continually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with getting Mr. Tonahill into the case?
Mr. RUBY. Indirectly; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you who you directly got into the case, if anybody?
Mr. RUBY. Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how Mr. Belli came to get into the case?
Mr. RUBY. Jack called. They let him use the phone down there. He talked to me or someone. Anyhow, we were talking about a lawyer then. We were all excited about getting the right lawyer. And he mentioned--I am trying to get it straight in my mind here. Oh, yes; he mentioned somebody wanted some information on his life or something, a life story or something, something to that effect, and he said to contact Mike Shore in California, in Los Angeles, who is a friend of ours, and he was a pretty well known publicity man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mike Shore before you called?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Well, actually, I know him since high school days in Chicago. He originally lived in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a classmate of yours in high school?
Mr. RUBY. No; but he went to the same school, if I remember, and I really didn't get acquainted with him until after we got out of school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your acquaintance with Mike Shore after you got out of school?
Mr. RUBY. Just on a general hello and how are you basis, nothing real close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in what connection would you see him?
Mr. RUBY. Then he became----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question? In what connection would you see him after you got put of school?
Mr. RUBY. I used to be a lifeguard at a swimming pool close to where he lived and he used to come over there once in a great while, just a few blocks from his house. And he used to--he was a Good Humor salesman, and we would go out and see him where he parked his truck or something once in a great while. But that was because he was more friendly with other people than he was with me. In other words, I wasn't one of his buddies. I would go along just for the ride.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do any business with him?
Mr. RUBY. I am coming to that. Then he became--he opened up the Mike Shore Advertising and he is the one that was behind Earl Muntz, you know, and the cars and the television. That is Michael Shore. And I did some business with him along in manufacturing. He got into the manufacturing of an item, a food seasoner. It was a large aluminum needle and you filled it with some different meat flavors and you injected it in the meat. Somebody talked him into it. He was doing very well, and he invested in it. Anyhow, it wasn't made correctly so they couldn't sell it, so he asked me since at that time I was in manufacturing, if I could correct the defect so they could at least sell them and market them, which I did. They shipped all these to me, I don't know how many thousand, 5,000 or 10,000, and we reworked them and fixed them and sold them for him. Then not too long after that Muntz practically went bankrupt, so

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he closed the Chicago office and moved back to California. So, anyhow, I called Mike.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you another question. From what you have said, I take it that Mike Shore first had contacted your brother Jack or somebody in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack told you to call Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore contacted Jack or what gave Jack the idea of suggesting that you call Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Jack knew that I knew Mike Shore, and he was, you know--he had been in advertising, was the only one we knew that could give us any advice as to what to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had someone approach him in connection with a life story or something like that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said several people were trying to contact him through Howard and wanted a life story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first you heard about this, though, was when Jack called you and asked you to contact Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. Now, wait--I don't know if he talked to me or he talked to one of the members of the family, because we had so many telephone calls from those first few days I can't recall all of them. But, anyhow, the word came to me to call Mike Shore and ask his advice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall how long after Oswald was shot that this call of yours took place?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a day or two later, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you did call Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call him in California?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I called him in California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did your conversation with Shore last?
Mr. RUBY. Several minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten or fifteen minutes?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I really don't know. Anyhow, I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what that conversation was.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned that Jack had said that people were interested in a story on Jack and Jack had said to contact him, ask his advice. And so he says, "Gee, that is a coincidence," he says, "because I've got somebody sitting right here in my office that would be the perfect man to do a story on Jack if one is going to be done." And he says, "His name is Billy Woodfield." His real name is William Woodfield. So he says, "I think you ought to come out here," the conversation got to that, "so we can talk it over." So I flew out there a day or two later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that all there was to the conversation at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; lawyers weren't mentioned yet as far as I remember. I don't think we mentioned the lawyer in the first conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you discussed with your family or with Tom Howard before you called Mike Shore----
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been your discussion about selling the life story with your family and with Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the question came up that we would need money for a good lawyer, and this was one of the solutions to raising money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you called Mike Shore, are you saying that you had discussed getting a lawyer other than Tom Howard, or when you use the term good lawyer are you talking about paying Howard?
Mr. RUBY. No; we were talking about a lawyer other than Howard now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had suggested that you should get a lawyer other than Howard or how did that idea arise?
Mr. RUBY. That was, I think, between our family, the family itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you discuss this with Howard before you called Mike Shore?

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Mr. RUBY. Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn't mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life story?
Mr. RUBY. No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there and I have a brother Sam in Dallas--do we need another lawyer. And then we learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer.
Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley Kaufman. He was my brother's civil lawyer down there. And I asked him if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can't recommend anyone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me. I can't remember the exact sequence of all these conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. I don't remember exactly, but it could have been even my own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was Jack's original attitude, if you know, about Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. He wasn't too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see, from what he hold me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a few times to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this suggestion raised to Jack?
Mr. RUBY. That I don't know. You are asking me what his thoughts were. I don't know. I can't answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers----
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked, Howard--Howard and I discussed this, and he said he needs help, he wouldn't mind another good lawyer. So we mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman, he told me Percy Foreman wants $25,000 as a retainer before he will even step into the case. So he says, "I know you don't have that kind of money so that eliminates him."
However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he only asked for $2,500.
Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman, Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got is he says, "Okay, I'll handle the case. I will be right down to take over."

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He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade's best friend, and so it just wouldn't work out. He just couldn't take it. Although he never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they down there found out that he was Henry Wade's best friend, and so he probably for one reason or another, he couldn't take the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any personal knowledge, however, that the friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn't take the case?
Mr. HUBERT. With Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With Wade. You don't know this?
Mr. RUBY. No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later on. Brunner said something to the effect--I don't remember the exact words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don't remember what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he didn't get into the case?
Mr. RUBY. I am just trying to, if I can find the words or something close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said--I can't recall that conversation at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Brunner mention----
Mr. RUBY. But I had a later conversation which I remember very clearly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. RUBY. This was after Jack received the sentence, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Then Brunner told me that he now wants to help Jack. He feels that this would never have happened if he had handled the case originally, the verdict, you know, the death verdict, and that I should talk to the family and think over about him taking over the defense.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything about Henry Wade at that conversation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said, "Even though I am very close," words to the effect that "even though I am very close with Wade, don't let that worry you," or something to that effect. But I forget that first conversation, and I just don't want to give you words----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he mentioned Wade in the first conversation that you recall?
Mr. RUBY. I am not sure and I don't want to just--no, we contacted Percy Foreman. You want to know who else?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I didn't know. This is only that I learned from Howard. He said he contacted Percy Foreman. He contacted Fred Erisman, a retired judge. There is another one, another very good criminal lawyer, but I can't even think of his last name to look it up. Is it important? I've got it here, but I just can't remember the name.
Oh, yes; here is another one they talked to, I understand--Jim Martin. In fact, he was in the case more or less with Howard. Oh, that is Charlie Tessmer, the other lawyer they contacted. And he turned it down. Why, he never told us, but he turned it down. In the meantime, I had talked to Charlie Bellows from Chicago who is now acting as consultant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to contact Mr. Bellows?
Mr. RUBY. Well, one of my close friends in Chicago worked in his office, another lawyer, Rheingold, Milton Rheingold.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, let me ask you here, did you know a lawyer in Chicago by the name of Weiner?
Mr. RUBY. A lawyer ? I don't think so, not a lawyer. I know a doctor, not a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead now with your contact with Bellows.
Mr. RUBY. So we talked to Bellows. I talked to him, rather. And he said he was going to be rather busy, and he wasn't sure he could take the case. As a matter of fact, that is who I wanted originally, because we knew him. His office represented me before Rheingold, was in his office with him, was my civil lawyer in Chicago, more or less, so you know at least we had a knowledge of who we were going to hire. And, in addition to that, he is a great criminal lawyer. He is head of the American Defense Lawyers, and all that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you contacted Bellows before your telephone call to Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am quite sure I did, and I asked him to give me an idea of

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the fee because, you know, expenses. Well, he said his fee would run anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, because he figured it would be a 2- or 3-month trial, plus expenses.
So I, of course, asked him what his expenses might be, and he says it shouldn't be more than, if I recall, $100 or $200 a week for his own expenses, he said, because he doesn't live highly and knowing me he is going to keep it down as low as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Bellows now?
Mr. RUBY. Bellows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, had you discussed a fee with Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. I did, but I don't know when.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the fee that was finally arrived at with Tom Howard? What was his fee to be?
Mr. RUBY. His fee was originally, if he would stay in all the way, he told me from $10,000 to $15,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many lawyers did Howard suggest would be needed besides himself?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned the names, you know, like Bellows. In fact, he talked to Bellows, and we were in the process of probably working something out with Bellows, but he was too busy, and asked--then the question came up as to whether Bellows would be a risk in Dallas, since he is Jewish. And I talked to about a half dozen other lawyers, and I even talked to the best criminal lawyer in Detroit, Joe Louisell. I had a meeting with him. I asked his advice. He says, "Don't bring a Jewish lawyer down there."
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Howard's view?
Mr. RUBY. Howard agreed with that. So that more or less took Bellows out of the picture. Now, in the meantime, I am back, going to California. So I go to California. They meet me at the airport. Is everything pretty well in sequence up until now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right, we will clarify. We will ask you some questions about it.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; first the conversation, to get back to Tom Howard, the first one or two conversations, as I said, I talked to him Monday morning. Then I think I talked to him Monday night. I don't remember, I talked to him any number of times. And in our discussions we talked money, costs. He mentioned "It is going to take a couple of months. You have got to figure anywhere total expenses close to $50,000."
I never knew all these things existed that you have to hire a special investigator, and he wants $10,000. And you have got to have an appeals lawyer like Burleson. That is how he came in. You have got to pay him.
Anyhow, he broke it down, roughly, over the phone he says it may run $50,000. So that is why I started asking any lawyer I talked to, like Bellows, "How much are you going to charge? I have got to know all these things. Give me an idea what we have to raise."
Then I had all of this information more or less in the back of my mind, how much have we got to raise to get Jack a decent defense counsel. Then I go out to California. They meet me at the airport, Mike Shore and Woodfield. The first thing they say, "Have you got a lawyer yet?" I says, "No."
I am still talking to Bellows. He is not out yet, you see. He is not out of the picture. Howard is still supposedly trying to contact somebody else that is good. I haven't been to Dallas yet. In the meantime, as I said, he had contacted Foreman and Charlie Tessmer and Fred Erisman. They were out. Fred Brunner, he didn't want to get in at the beginning. Those were considered some of the top criminal lawyers in the State of Texas.
So, anyhow, I meet him, they meet me at the plane in Los Angeles, get in the car. The first thing they ask is "Have you got a lawyer?" And I tell them what is going on. I am not sure yet. So they start talking to me about Belli, Melvin Belli. I had never heard of him. And they couldn't understand it. But I never had. And I told them that, that I had never heard of him, and so they start telling me how great he was, you know, and all that stuff.
And they said, "By coincidence he is in town. He is in L.A."
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you arrived did Shore and Woodfield--how

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long before you arrived did they know you were coming? In other words, how many days elapsed between your conversation with Shore and your airplane trip out there?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, only a day or so, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore mentioned Belli to you on the telephone in that first conversation?
Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I am not sure I think so, but I am not sure, because I think in our conversation in the car that we had makes me think they mentioned it before now, because the conversation went like this: I must have mentioned before I haven't heard of Belli. He says, "I know I haven't mentioned Belli and I don't want to push him too much," but then they started to tell me how good he is, so we must have talked about him on the phone. My remark was, "But Mike, I never heard of him."
So, anyhow, they said, the conversation got around that he is in town, and, "Would you care to see him?"
I says, "Well, I've got nothing to lose."
In the meantime, they are telling me how great he is, of course.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you under the impression that they had asked Belli to come to Los Angeles?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was a coincidence? Is there anything factual that happened that might suggest to you that----
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that they probably did. I shouldn't say did, probably could have. I don't want to make the statement that they did, because Woodfield later told me that Belli promised him that he would write Belli's version of the trial or whatever you call it, for making the contact to represent my brother, words to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield said this?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you heard Woodfield say it or this is something that somebody else told you Woodfield said?
Mr. RUBY. No; I heard Woodfield say that.
Mr. HUBERT. Woodfield told that to you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he tell you that?
Mr. RUBY. That was later on when he learned--this was weeks later when he learned he wasn't going to do the story. Somebody else--Belli brought in a fellow by the name of Al Moscow to do the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of your brother?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of Belli?
Mr. RUBY. Belli--Belli's book on the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this before----
Mr. RUBY. Wait, we have got to clarify something else. We are getting ahead of ourselves.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just pinpoint time here. Was your conversation with Woodfield about Woodfield not being able to write the Belli story, did that conversation occur before, during, or after the trial of your brother?
Mr. RUBY. During, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate by your tone of voice and your words that you are not certain as to when this took place. Could you try to think of what the surrounding circumstances were of this conversation and other things to pinpoint the time?
Mr. RUBY. It wasn't after, I know. Whether or not it was before, it could have been just before, because I don't remember when A1 Moscow came down the first time.
Oh, well, we can know exactly. It was published all over the country that Belli had signed a contract to do a story on Jack Ruby and the trial and all that stuff, and it was all over the country, with Al Moscow to do the writing. So we can pinpoint that. I don't remember the date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I took you off the track. Get back on your track.
Mr. RUBY. Where was I?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that we were skipping ahead, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the last thing you were talking about before we diverted into these other aspects was that you said you had nothing to lose.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right, so that evening we went to see Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Belli?
Mr. RUBY. In a home--a used home he had recently purchased in L.A.
Mr. HUBERT. Was an appointment made by them to see him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; oh, yes. I think it was 7 o'clock, if I am not mistaken, that evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they call Belli? Where was Belli when they called him to make the appointment.
Mr. RUBY. In L.A. from what they told me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but do you know whether he was at his house or in an office or in a hotel or in a cocktail lounge or where he might have been?
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when they called to make the appointment?
Mr. RUBY. I don't remember that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. So we are at the point that you do go to see Belli.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think this is a good breaking point for lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe.
(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as we resume this deposition that I presume you understand that the oath you took this morning with Mr. Hubert and all the formalities which you went through still pertain to this hearing.
You are still under oath and we will continue in the same fashion that we did before.
If there are any questions about it why you are free to say anything.
We were talking, it seems to me, that we got you to the point where you had just met Mr. Belli.
Mr. RUBY. Belli, that is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I wanted to confine your attention from here on in to certain narrow aspects of your dealings in Los Angeles, and that is your efforts to find financing for Jack's trial and what the actual financing of the trial is.
Can you tell us, first of all, whether prior to seeing Belli, that day that you were in Los Angeles, you talked to Mr. Shore and Mr. Woodfield at all about the financing of the trial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I told them we had to raise money, and I told them Howard gave me a figure of anywhere from $25,000 to $50,000, and I asked them about how much they thought they could obtain from a story, and they said they couldn't promise 50 but 30, 35, I think that was the figure that Woodfield used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be the gross figure or would that be what your brother would have ultimately had available from the entire sum for his defense?
Mr. RUBY. That was the figure, the net figure my brother would have left over after they took their commissions and percentage, and the agent's fee and all of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to share in the proceeds from the sale, beside Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Woodfield, William Woodfield. Larry Shiller, the agent, and then they in turn said they would pay commissions to sales people. I don't know who those were, of coarse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this first day in Los Angeles----
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to meeting Belli and your talk with them, did you discuss how long the article or biography would be and where it would be published and other details such as that?

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Mr. RUBY. I don't think so; not the first day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the meeting at Mr. Belli's house, did you discuss the biography of your brother?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What discussion took place there?
Mr. RUBY. Just the general discussion that Woodfield would do the writing of it. That is about all. And a figure did come up of how much could be raised through the story, through the selling of the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the speculation at that time?
Mr. RUBY. That is what I said, you know, the same figure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your meeting at Mr. Belli's home last?
Mr. RUBY. I would say at least an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of the time at Mr. Belli's house was spent discussing the sale of the biography or the life story?
Mr. RUBY. Probably 10 minutes altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you finished----
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me, would you want to know who else was present there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I would.
Mr. RUBY. Sam Brody, one of his associates in L.A., another attorney, who was in the case for a while but if you will recall he stepped out, and Woodfield's wife, yes, Woodfield's wife, I don't remember her name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mike Shore there?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't think so. No; I am quite sure he wasn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When that meeting ended there, had there been an agreement----
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me a minute.
I am trying to think if Mike Shore was there. I don't place him there. I am not sure he was there. I can't say yes or no to that question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He might have been there but you are not sure, is that your answer, or is your original answer that he wasn't there still your best impression.
Mr. RUBY. If my recollection is correct, I think he just met Belli and then left. He had an appointment or something but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conclusion of your talk at that point as to whether Belli would represent Jack.
Mr. RUBY. It wasn't definite yet. We talked about lawyers and he mentioned what he thinks we ought to do, and psychiatrists we might need--and different things that--he mentioned he would bring in Tonahill. He worked with Tonahill before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time Tonahill's name was mentioned?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain in Los Angeles that night?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I was there that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there the next day?
Mr. RUBY. I think I left the next--about noon of the next day if I am not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Los Angeles what arrangements had been made with respect to the autobiography or the life story of Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing really definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Woodfield ultimately write the story that you are talking about?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And----
Mr. RUBY. He came down to Dallas later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that published, that story? Just tell us generally.
Mr. RUBY. Well, they offered it for sale to foreign countries, publications in foreign countries, and also here through the newspapers, through a sales organization that handles that, I think, out of New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that life story serialized in a number of newspapers throughout the country?
Mr. RUBY. When you say serialized, I don't understand what you mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was published over a period of days.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it appear in any national magazines?

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Mr. RUBY. No; not in the United States. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some original discussion with Woodfield that it would appear, that he would try to sell it to a national magazine?
Mr. RUBY. Well, our agreement was that he would sell it--yes, that if he could sell it to a national magazine that he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussions with him about selling it to the Saturday Evening Post?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that discussion take place?
Mr. RUBY. Not until later; probably down in Dallas when we met in Dallas later on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much did the Ruby defense ultimately realize from that newspaper article?
Mr. RUBY. The net?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. A little over $30,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people get--did the Ruby defense also get contributions from people?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but very little, very little.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us approximately what the total of the contributions were?
Mr. RUBY. Contributions--are you speaking right up to today now or until the trial?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not until the exact day. But do you have some figure as to what it was up to today? Roughly, what it is? I don't ask you to be accurate to the penny.
Mr. RUBY. Well now, you see there are two funds, the story fund and a separate fund that a defense committee was trying to raise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the story fund comprises the $30,000.
Mr. RUBY. Separate; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in that fund besides the $30,000, or did anything else go into it?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I put in whatever donations my brother received in the jail I deposited. It was only--I don't think it was $500 from there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other monies were given for the defense, though, were they not?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go into the defense committee fund? Did these other monies go into the defense committee fund?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they were used for paying the bills, if that is what you mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is, you say there are two funds, one fund is what you call the newspaper fund----
Mr. RUBY. Well, you see, that--the .newspaper--was more or less Jack Ruby's own fund. He authorized to write the story, and that was more or less his own fund.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBY. But this is a separate committee that was set up in Chicago, and they got several hundred dollars but we spent--well, on one ad we spent $200 for the ad and we got $205 back--to give you an idea. We kept using the money hoping to get more money in but it didn't work out too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us who the members of that defense committee are?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. There is Michael Levin, a lawyer in Chicago, my brother Hyman Ruby, Rubenstein, and Barney Ross, Marty Eritt.
Then there is another one or two in there that I am not too familiar with. But they have got stationery. I don't have it with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts did they make to obtain funds?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they wrote some letters and they did advertising, as I told you. However, quite a few of the quite a few--most of the newspapers wouldn't take the ad. The Chicago papers wouldn't take it. The Tribune, and the Sun-Times in Chicago wouldn't take an ad for an appeal for funds for Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever given any reasons?

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Mr. RUBY. No; the answers were it is not their policy, and there was another reason, I can't remember the exact words. I don't recall. But Mike Levin did most of that, you know--the lawyer--he did most of the calling and he told me, but I don't remember the exact words and I would rather not say--you know, if I am not sure of the exact words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to say if you didn't hear it.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep the records for that defense committee fund?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; most--yes; I would say yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those records here with you today?
Mr. RUBY. No; I gave them to an agent, though. I gave them to an agent some time ago. I gave him a list of all the monies that came in, and I think I even gave him a list of who I paid it out to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of how much money came in altogether in the defense committee fund?
Mr. RUBY. Now you are not talking about the story--right
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. RUBY. From the defense committee fund between $1,500 and $2,000, altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the expenses of the fund or is this excuse me--is this $1,500 or $2,000--is that a net figure or a gross figure?
Mr. RUBY. That is a gross.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After expenses, what was ultimately left for the application to the defense?
Mr. RUBY. I can't give you an exact figure because I just can't recall all of the expenses we had, because I just paid a bill last week, and I just don't have it, but I would say we spent probably close to a thousand dollars, because one ad alone was close to $300, and the letter was another $300--is $600 already that I can think of. There were other, smaller expenses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the total expenses were that have been for the defense of your brother so far?
Mr. RUBY. In the low thirties. Of course, you must understand we are continually spending money, so I don't have it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been given an estimate recently as to what the total expenses of the defense of your brother is going to be?
Mr. RUBY. An estimate?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. You mean if it goes to the Supreme Court and all that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; have you been given any estimate as to what the total expenses might be.
Mr. RUBY. No; I would say no. Just said it would run into a lot of money but no figure was ever actually quoted, except by Belli.
You see, he really didn't, either. He just--I am trying to think what his statement was, now. No; he didn't either, because at that time we weren't talking about Supreme Court, we were only talking about--you know--the first trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his----
Mr. RUBY. He mentioned between $75,000 and $100,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a total cost.
Mr. RUBY. Of the first trial. And that is now his fee and everything, when you are talking expenses. I am talking everything they wanted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a fee did he quote to you at that time?
Mr. RUBY. He was talking about $50,000, if I recall correctly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he quote it to you personally or is this a figure you have learned from somebody else?
Mr. RUBY. No; he quoted it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how much----
Mr. RUBY. In other words, it wasn't a definite figure. He said it could be around, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have the costs of the investigation for the defense been paid to date?
Mr. RUBY. What do you mean by investigations?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the defense hire investigators?

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Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And have these investigators been paid for their work?
Mr. RUBY. Not completely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know----
Mr. RUBY. Well, there is a difference of opinion so----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how much has been paid and how much is claimed as to the total bill?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the original investigator that we had, I think, we paid him about $5,000 already, plus some expenses of a thousand dollars or so; I don't remember the exact figures, and he claims we owe him $1,500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. More?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and there is a little dispute about that.
Now, we have got a new investigator, I don't know his name there. My sister hired him down there and she has given him several hundred dollars, I don't know how much. I don't know how much she gave him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Howard get any money?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much was he paid?
Mr. RUBY. I think we paid him, I am not sure of this figure though, $3,500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the remaining funds that have been paid, I take it, have been paid to Mr. Belli?
Mr. RUBY. Belli got, I think, $11,000, if I am not mistaken. Then we paid the doctors, I don't know, $5,000 or $6,000, you know, the psychiatrists that came down, and some of my expenses came out, just my flight expenses and telephone calls, and who else now?
We gave Burleson some money, he has got, I think, about a thousand dollars that we gave him since the trial. He was supposed to get paid from Belli before. That is the reason we didn't pay him. However, he claimed Belli never gave him anything. And we paid, like George Senator, the witness, our No. 1 witness, we had to give him money to live on because he was so, what shall I say the word for that, well, he lost his job and he was so upset he couldn't, you know, he just couldn't work.
And then we had to pay--he went home and I had to send him airplane fare to come back, you know, and there is----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Larry Crafard, did you pay him any money?
Mr. RUBY. Larry Crafard, I think we just gave him a few dollars, $5 maybe because he was broke when he was living on the road, he didn't have a dime, so I think I gave him some money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Larry incidentally contact you any time while you were in Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; I wish he would have, because he hitchhiked all the way down there, and I was driving at the same time, but he didn't know I lived there, and we----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he notified to come to the trial?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. If I remember correctly he came on his own. He just thought that when all this came out about, you know, Jack getting him to take that picture of Earl Warren, he had the camera or something, I forgot the full details myself, but he is the one who took the picture, right, if I am not mistaken, and he just thought he should come down to help Jack as much as he possibly could.
Could I go a little further?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't really want to pry into this unless this is something you care to reveal.
Mr. RUBY. The most important thing is coming up now, I mean one of the most important things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I do want to reflect this--that I don't want to push you into saying things, talking about subjects that you would rather not talk about, and I realize that this in one of them. Now, if you do want to say something about it why, of course, we would be happy to hear anything you want to say.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I returned home, I went from L.A. to Dallas, I talked to Jack, I talked to Howard. We hadn't hired Belli yet. He was going to go

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down and see Jack, and talk to him before he decided to come in, you know, and take over the case.
I went back to Detroit and in a couple of days I get another call, I get a call, from Woodfield. He is very upset. He just heard some news that he thinks I must know. However, it is so confidential that he can't even tell it to me over the phone. And I talk to Mike Shore and between us--they couldn't tell me on the phone, I had better go back to California.
So, I go out there again. The story he tells me is that, in the meantime he is trying to make contacts, this is about a week later. He is trying to make contact to sell the story to the different publications, to the Saturday Evening Post, you know, and other publications, and somebody from the Saturday Evening Post called him, I think--now this is what he told me and said that Tom Howard was up to the Saturday Evening Post office in Dallas offering for sale a picture of President Kennedy with a piece of his head shot off, and so I immediately, or as soon as I could, when I left them, I called my sister Eva in Dallas and I said, "Get a hold of the agent that has been talking--that has been taking--your story there and tell them about this so they can check into it."
And then I went home, I flew back to Detroit.
By the time I got to Detroit they had tried to contact me to get some more information on the story. I mentioned this to Tom Howard and he denied it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his denial a flat denial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; you know, complete, and you know. However, I think it was the fellow at the Saturday Evening Post that said--now I have given all this to the special agents or, I think, the Treasury Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. The Saturday Evening Post man said, "Well, let them come in front of me in my office and deny it."
But, of course, we never brought it to a head. But, anyhow, I don't know what happened. They never told me, of course, as you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of the Saturday Evening Post man in Dallas that Howard allegedly contacted.
Mr. RUBY. No; I did originally but I think I gave it to the agents.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk personally to this man from the Saturday Evening Post who claims he talked to Howard?
Mr. RUBY. No; Woodfield.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody--you just reported that somebody said--"Let Howard come before me and deny it."
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it this was the Saturday Evening Post man who allegedly made that statement?
Mr. RUBY. Let me look in my book. Perhaps I have it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is where did you get--who told you--that the Saturday Evening Post man said that?
Mr. RUBY. Woodfield.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So everything you know about this transaction between Howard and the Saturday Evening Post comes either from Woodfield or from Howard's denial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; right. I don't have it. I may have it somewhere else in another book but I don't have it here.
By the way, if you are asking about the finances, we still have bills of--altogether from what my sister tells me of close to $10,000 that are unpaid now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any money left in either of the funds at this point?
Mr. RUBY. No; I have been putting it off.
I mean, Burleson insists he wants some money so I have been sending him out of my personal account.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your brother shot Oswald did you see him?
Mr. RUBY. I think it was about at least a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

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Mr. RUBY. I am not sure. Because I made so many trips there. I was down there about seven or eight times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before you went to Los Angeles to see Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. No; I think I made it on the way back. I went to Los Angeles first, the first trip, and then on the way back I went to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with Jack on this first visit?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they only let you talk about 20 minutes or a half hour at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the last time you have seen him?
Mr. RUBY. The last time I saw him was--I was there at the verdict, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since the verdict?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, oh, yes; I stayed there for at least several days, anyhow, and I saw him every day at least once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since then?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; since I came back, since that trip, I haven't been back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you notice any change in your brother's mental and physical condition between the first time that you saw him in Dallas and the last time that you saw him in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Physically he lost about 30 pounds, and you know, his face was drawn and his eyes sunken, and in addition to that he was despondent, of course, and you couldn't--he would have to repeat questions or ask questions from him more than once to get a reply. It just didn't seem to register all the time.
Even Belli mentioned that he couldn't get across to Jack all the time, and Burleson mentioned to me several times that Jack is off his rocker. This was, you know----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after the verdict or before?
Mr. RUBY. No; before. He says, "Your brother is off his rocker. He has got himself involved with all the Jews all over the world and he doesn't know what he is talking about," but my brother did know what he was talking about. It was Burleson who didn't understand. Because in order to understand--it is a Jewish problem--and most Jews would understand it.
Burleson, not being familiar with this, it just went over his head. I didn't even think of it then but he kept telling me, "Your brother has got himself all mixed up with all the Jews all over the world and he is off his rocker." That was the statement he made several times to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to explore this with you at some length if you don't mind.
Mr. RUBY. That is why I brought this with me. I have all of this in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to ask you some questions first and then we will get into the papers that you have brought. You say there was a disagreement, that you disagreed with Burleson's appraisal of your brother's involvement with the Jewish question.
Mr. RUBY. He couldn't explain it. So, really, I didn't understand it myself. I didn't know what he was talking about at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You subsequently did come to learn what he was talking about, I take it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it wasn't until somebody brought it to my attention, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was brought to your attention--what particular facts?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the fact it seemed that Jack in digging down into his past, he had an obsession about the Jewish people, and he always went out of his way to show people that Jews are not bad people, you know, because you know they have been persecuted over the years, and that is one of the reasons he brought the policemen at the station sandwiches and went out of his way to bring them cheesecakes and he was in debt to me for thousands of dollars, yet he never sent me any money but he always had money to give more or less or lend to these other people, almost all non-Jews to show them that a Jew would help them out.
A policeman became a father and was short on money, he would lend him a couple of hundred, never got it back, never got anything back.
Another friend he ran into needed a car to get a job--lent him a few hundred.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know--can you give us the names of some of these people?
Mr. RUBY. No; but my sister has them down there. I don't have it. But I know of these instances, and he read all these books on the Jewish problem, the persecution of the Jews, going all the way back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mr. RUBY. I know from my sister. He lived with my sister and she told me, and he told me both.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Eva?
Mr. RUBY. Eva; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack has told you that he read books on the Jewish problems?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he even went to lectures on it, the synagogue, they had movies of the killings of the Jews in Germany. He went to all of these, things of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if Mr. Hubert has covered this or not, but do you recall an episode or a period back before World War II when Jack showed some concern about the Jewish problem, about the treatment of the Jews?
Mr. RUBY. Before World War II?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. You mean--well, he was in Chicago in the early thirties, they had the Nazi Bund meetings and Jack was always one to go and see if he could help break them up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go on any of these groups?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. RUBY. He was about 4 years older than I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Over what period of time was Jack involved in trying to break up these Bund meetings?
Mr. RUBY. In the early thirties there, I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other people who participated with him in those?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't know their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group of people or would Jack go alone?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was a group. But I don't know the other names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any sort of organized group? Was there an organization that he belonged to?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't think it was an organization. It just was several Jewish fellows and I don't think they had an organization of any kind. Just when they learned that meetings were taking place, they would go there and try to break them up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack ever arrested in connection with any of those?
Mr. RUBY. Not as far as I know, because he has no arrest along those lines at all.
In fact, the only violation he has, from what I could gather, was being open after hours, and carrying concealed weapons which, from what I understand, they don't need a permit in Dallas, you know, when he carried large sums of money.
Other than that--you must understand I was away from him, practically from the time he went to Dallas until the incident. I only saw him for short periods of time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Dave Miller gang?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the Dave Miller gang?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I read about them in the paper. I was just a school kid then, but that was a gang that hung around Dave Miller's fight gymnasium, that is all I can remember. But I know something like that existed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they get newspaper publicity?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anything to do with those people?
Mr. RUBY. He used to hang around Dave Miller's gym but he was Barney Ross' follower like, and I think Barney Ross trained there and so he was very close with him.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, this group that was referred to as the Dave Miller gang.
Mr. RUBY. Dave Miller was a referee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dave Miller was a referee?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; Davy Miller was a referee in Chicago for many years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he ran a gymnasium?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; to train the fighters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Dave Miller have a following of some sort?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say it was--there was a restaurant downstairs and it was a hangout. He owned the restaurant and the gym, and he was a referee so the fighters hung around there and other people came around to see the fighters, so it was a general hangout for people of that type.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Dave Miller gang have anything to do with these efforts to break up the Bund meetings?
Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I don't have any concrete evidence. I think they did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go ahead and tell us--let me ask you this, rather. You say that your awareness of your brother's, what we'll call involvement with his Jewish background or his position in society as a person of Jewish background, was brought to your attention by someone else. Who brought this to your attention?
Mr. RUBY. No; what was brought to my attention, I knew he was also interested in the Jewish problem, but I didn't think it entered into this picture because I didn't--this article here that was drawn up by Sol Dann, who through his daughter, a friend of the family, became interested in it because he could see what was in the background, and he studied all the things and he got some information from me and he talked to my brother, my sister and the psychiatrists on the case, and the more he talked to them the more he could see that this was an obsession with my brother, who probably didn't realize it was as great an obsession as it actually was, and that is probably one of the reasons why Belli mentioned to me on a few occasions, "I can't get across to your brother. I don't have a client."
He says, "I have a patient, not a client."
He mentioned that to me several times. He says, "I can't get through to your brother."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any specific indications?
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn't go any further either, because I thought Belli was such a great lawyer. I say--I don't even remember what I said, I just--then he had psychiatrists, when the psychiatrist would interview my brother he would talk to him afterward, and if ever I asked, I mean, what they say, he says, "Well, they claim he is sick, he has got this"--I don't know the medical terms he used, you know, and so on and so forth, and, "We have a good case, he is definitely sick," and all that, but the real problem, I mean the obsession itself, I don't think that even registered with Belli or the other psychiatrists, because as far as I know--because it was never mentioned at the trial, and the psychiatrists never mentioned it to us, and we didn't think to tell it to them, because we didn't know if it had any importance or not, but we find now in talking to the psychiatrists that it is of great importance and it was probably one of the factors in his thinking the way he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Mr. Burleson--did he tell you during this period, when you didn't understand what he was talking about--what did he tell you about Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was aloof from us. That was the big problem with that trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say, Mr. Ruby, I don't want to, I am not asking you to comment on the way Mr. Burleson conducted himself, but I am trying to find out what it was he said to you about Jack which you didn't comprehend at the time.
Mr. RUBY. He said he is getting himself involved with all the Jews all over the world on an international scale "He is off his rocker"--that was one of his
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he specify any of the things Jack was talking about?
Mr. RUBY. No; he used to say, "Jews all over the world, on an international

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scale," that was his expression several times and then, of course, he stated, "He is off his rocker."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Burleson tell you this sort of thing before the trial, or only after the trial?
Mr. RUBY. Before and during, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right.
Mr. RUBY. And not so much after, because after we were disgusted, I will tell you that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the trial did Mr. Burleson begin to call these problems about involvement with Jews.
Mr. RUBY. Right after he got involved. Because he lived in Dallas, and he talked to my brother more so than anyone else because he lives there and right after he got into the case, not a few days later, he says, you know, made the statement again, "That your brother has got himself involved with all the Jews on an international scale and he is off his rocker, he doesn't know what he is talking about."
And to be truthful to you I didn't understand his statement. It didn't register with me because they kept saying, Belli said, "Your brother is sick. I have got a patient on my hands, you know. I am trying to take care of your brother, and I can't get across to him."
And my brother, I know, he had many fights because of the Jewish question, of being called, you know, names, referring to his Jewish parents and all that stuff, and, of course, I have been through it myself but he more so, and he fought more about it.
He was always quick tempered and just couldn't take it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other fights did he get involved in because of the Jewish question?
Mr. RUBY. Many fights. I know on several occasions he came home once with his suit full of blood from downtown.
He was downtown Chicago. I said, "What happened?"
He said, "Somebody called me a dirty Jew or something like that."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he fought with on that occasion?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; there are many instances that my older brothers and sisters know of because I was younger, 4 years younger and in his teens, early teens, I didn't go with him because 4 years makes a big difference, and I went my way and he went his way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Jack at the time that you saw him with this suit full of blood?
Mr. RUBY. This goes back now, if I recall in 1946, I think, 1946.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after he got out of the service?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he told me he had several fights in the service regarding this. He told me he had fights with a professional heavyweight in the service because he said something about the Jews.
My brother was so Jewish conscious that it didn't make any difference whether he said, swore at him for being a Jew or he swore at somebody else a half a block away. He would get in there and fight right away, you know, unless they apologized and what have you. And he--so this, checking into it from what the psychiatrists tell me, he went out of his way to show the gentiles that in their thinking that all the Jews are no good or money grabbers or what have you, here was a nice guy that went out of his way--and didn't have the money--to help anybody he could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of this from the period that you worked with him at Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Well, this----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's just focus on that for a while.
Mr. RUBY. He was with me only a short period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What examples do you have from that period?
Mr. RUBY. I know from Earl Products is when he had that fight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else?
Mr. RUBY. That I know of. Other instances, I can't think of because as I said he went around with an older group of fellows than I did. We didn't run around

411


together. And not only that, I was married then, and you know he has been a bachelor all his life so he went to places----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You traveled with him, didn't you in the early forties you traveled with Jack, didn't you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; a little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look back on that experience, if you can, do you remember any episodes from that?
Mr. RUBY. Actually, you must understand I didn't travel with him. I only met him every weekend. He traveled by himself, and I traveled by myself, and we got together on weekends and then we would only see each other Friday night and then he would go on.
And we traveled through the East mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, you have brought certain papers with you, and Mr. Hubert is now in the room, and I want to bring him up to date a little bit on where we are, and we have been talking sometime about your brother's obsession, as I think you call it, with his position in society as a person of Jewish background, and you indicated to me that you really only fully became aware of this problem since your brother shot Oswald, but that you have thought about it considerably since then, and that you have brought with you certain papers in connection with it.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder first if you can first identify a paper in your hand, if you will identify that paper, and I will give it an exhibit number.
Mr. RUBY. What would you call this----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are handing me----
Mr. RUBY. This document.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A document that consists of 30 typewritten pages purporting to have been prepared by a man named Sol Dann, 1820 David Stott Building, Detroit 26, Mich. This is a Xerox copy and on the first page I am going to write your name "Earl Ruby Deposition, June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 1" and I will ask you if you will state for the record what that is.
(Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)
Mr. RUBY. Well, this I would like to get into the record if I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Exhibit No. 1 and then I will mark this other thing that you gave me.
Mr. RUBY. This is only what I want to state.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 1, tell us what that is. In a general fashion tell us what that consists of.
Mr. RUBY. Well, this is as was stated, prepared by Mr. Dann as to why or one of the reasons, that Ruby, that is Jack Ruby, shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have also handed me a handwritten penciled set of papers consisting of three pages.
Mr. RUBY. I was going to read that, is that all right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.
Mr. RUBY. That was my intention if it is all right with you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a statement you would like to make for the record?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, go ahead then.
Mr. RUBY. I am filing this document with you because it explains why I need the help of the United States, and more especially, your help.
My brother, Jack, was deprived, and is presently being deprived, of his constitutional and civil rights. The hatred and bigotry in Dallas, Tex., resulted in the assassination of our President. It almost cost the lives of our present President, Mr. Johnson, and others.
With all the protection that this Government could give it could not guard against and prevent the assassination.
My family and myself are unable to cope with that situation and it may result in my brother's death.
As pointed out in this document, my brother, Jack, is being made the scapegoat of this horrible situation. I, therefore, need, and respectfully request, your assistance in order that those guilty of this atrocity, either because of their

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acts or omission, gross negligence, or commission shall not go unpunished or undisciplined.
I don't think that my brother, who had nothing to do with the assassination of the President, should be the only one punished. My family as well as myself have almost exhausted all of our resources in an effort to protect my brother's civil rights, but now I am calling upon you for the help we need.
That is it.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest you put the document in the record as well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mind, Mr. Ruby, if we would put that in the record?
Mr. RUBY. No; this I didn't use.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will mark the three pages from what you have just read.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked them "Earl Ruby Deposition, June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 2," and that is on the first page. I think on the second page I will write Exhibit No. 2, and on the third page I will write Exhibit No. 2.
I will ask you if we may keep this and include this as part of our permanent record.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if you will sign it on the first page and initial each of the other pages.
(Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, may I ask, this is addressed to whom, this Exhibit No. 2, which you actually read into the record. Who are you addressing it to?
Mr. RUBY. To the Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. To the Commission. It is your desire that we see that the members of the Commission receive that document, is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say both your letter and the attachment?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; both.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that Exhibit No. 1 which is the long one of 30 pages, has the name Sol Dann.
Mr. RUBY. Sol Dann.
Mr. HUBERT. I also notice he didn't sign it. Did he actually prepare it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in what he says then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why he didn't sign it?
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn't even notice it, to be honest with you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask Mr. Ruby, I will hand him back Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you will simply sign that on the first page, so we may have it properly marked for the record.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you about Exhibit No. 2. This is in pencil?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I didn't think that you would want it so I, of course, didn't----
Mr. HUBERT. When did you write this Exhibit No. 2?
Mr. RUBY. Yesterday.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your own handwriting?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
I will have photostats made of this.
Mr. RUBY. If it doesn't take, I can rewrite it in ink in 5 or 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you some questions to get the background of this document which we have marked here as Exhibit No. 1.
First of all, would you tell us how you happened to know Mr. Dann?
Mr. RUBY. His daughter teaches Hebrew in the school where my daughter attends, and his daughter impressed on him, after several conversations to contact me, and see what he could do to help us because he has been very active in helping I should say, the minority groups of any organization.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what Mr. Dann does for a living?
Mr. RUBY. He is an attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Detroit?

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Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is Mr. Dann?
Mr. RUBY. I would say 55. That is a guess, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mr. Dann before his daughter talked with you about----
Mr. RUBY. His daughter didn't talk with me. She talked with him and finally convinced him to contact me and see what he could do to help us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Mr. Dann first contact you?
Mr. RUBY. Shortly after the verdict was passed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know what efforts Mr. Dann made after talking with you, to talk with other people in order to prepare this document?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he talked with many other people, the psychiatrists, he talked with Dr. West. He talked with Dr. Smith, the chief counsel, he talked, with Mr. Charles Bellows, the consultant on the ease.
He talked to a psychiatrist by the name of Tanay in Detroit, and he mentioned, several other people but I don't recall their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you----
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me; he also talked to my brother in Dallas, Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he talked with your brother Jack?
Mr. RUBY. No; he talked to Eva. But he talked to Dr. West and Dr. Smith and Bellows who spent a lot of time with Jack, of course, altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to Mr. Hubert that this Exhibit No. 1 had been read by you and that it generally reflected your views.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in your own words generally what is set forth in Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it goes into, it explains Jack's thinking along the Jewish problem, aria his obsession and his love of President Kennedy, his going out of the way to try to be an exceptionally good guy by helping gentiles as much as he possibly could, and in any way he could. It also explains happenings at the trial. The withholding of evidence by District Attorney Henry Wade that should have been presented to the court. That my brother had received psychiatric help when he was 10 years old and none of the family knew it except the FBI, who had turned this information over to Wade.
However, Wade never permitted this to be used at the trial, and it also goes into telling of many eases that were reversed because of incidents similar to those which took place at my brother Jack's trial, and states for these many reasons that the verdict should be reversed for all of these mistakes or negligence or whatever you may call it on the part of the court and the State's attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it correct, do I have the correct understanding then, that in a sense we can break this down into two parts: One part of the document deals with the facts that have to do with Jack's obsession?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part has to do with the legal errors in the trial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; right--correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct myself to some of the factual issues that are raised by Exhibit No. 1. I have made some notes here as you have been talking, and I want you. after we cover this, to tell me if I have left anything out that you think is important, but I want to try to cover this in orderly fashion. I am going backward though.
One issue that you raised here was that District Attorney Wade had withheld certain psychiatric evidence at the trial that had been turned over to him by the FBI.
Mr. RUBY. By the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was that your brother Jack had received psychiatric help at age 10 and none of the family members knew about it?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to tell us what your present understanding is now as to how Jack happened to get this psychiatric treatment, and where it was administered, and for how long, and the other details?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know that but the FBI gave that information to Wade,

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and Tonahill has that information in Dallas but I don't have the exact dates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know where he got the psychiatric aid?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what institution?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Tonahill has this information?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how this evidence happened to be given, or let me ask you this, how do you know this evidence was given by the FBI to Mr. Wade?
Mr. RUBY. Tonahill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill has told you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that it was given to Wade by the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Tonahill learn about this?
Mr. RUBY. That I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Tonahill----
Mr. RUBY. Well. he handled all the contacts with the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill did?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; more or less.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your understanding that the work of the trial team was divided up in such a way that only Tonahill dealt with the FBI, for the most part?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you have no personal information, further personal information, at this time about this psychiatric help which Jack got at age 10?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack was 10 was he living in the home?
Mr. RUBY. In a foster home, yes; so far as I can understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would have made you 6, is that right?
Mr. RUBY. Would have made me 6.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at age 6?
Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don't know but I think I was living in Chicago, of course, and I don't remember the name. I think the name of the people were Speeves, but I don't know if I went to the farm, they sent me to a farm for a year, whether I was on a farm at the time but anyhow we weren't together those years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many years were you separated from the rest of the family as a child?
Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don't know when it started. I would say 5, 6 years maybe. I was in three foster homes that I remember all together. know I was on a farm, and then at two foster homes that I can distinctly remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how old you were when you returned to the home of your family, your mother's and father's home?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think it was in 1928, 1928, so I must have been 13 years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that would have made Jack 17.
Mr. RUBY. Seventeen; I am not sure whether it was--I just don't remember. It has got to be a little before that. Because I went to that Shepherd School for a few years, it had to be there from 1925 to 1928, but I don't know exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in the home when you went to the Shepherd School?
Mr. RUBY. You mean was I living with the family?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack living with the family at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is when we were all brought back together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack finished high school at that time?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; Jack didn't finish high school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; but was Jack still attending school when he returned to the home?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall how long Jack continued to attend school after you returned to the family, to your family?

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Mr. RUBY. No; I know he graduated from that Shepherd School but when I don't know. As far as I know he graduated from that school and then he went to Marshall High School for a while and then he dropped out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Another thing that you mentioned that we were discussing in Exhibit 1, that Mr. Dann had assembled some facts and had discussed Jack's efforts to show that the Jews are good people by himself helping gentiles.
Now I want you to go back and comb your recollection of the period you lived with and worked with Jack for incidents when you can recall of your own knowledge of Jack helping gentiles, or helping people in general, let's not limit it to Jews or gentiles.
Mr. RUBY. Well, even when we were in business, we had that problem which came up several times, where he would take some of the merchandise, like our pens that we were using, and salt and pepper shakers, and almost every day or two he would take a load of samples. When I asked him he would say, "Well, a nice guy here or there and I gave him one or two, what difference does it make", in the meantime he was giving them out all the time. If anybody wanted one he would just give it to them. But at that time no remark was made as far as I can remember as to why he did it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to give us names of any people who, you know might have been the beneficiaries of this?
Mr. RUBY. I wouldn't remember, because I wouldn't know where, but most of this took place or a great part of it anyhow in Dallas, and the names of those I think we could get.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as far as you are concerned, of course, you knew him in Chicago, how about people that you can think of that Jack would have extended these kindnesses to in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. I couldn't remember any names because there was no reason to remember this, and this goes back so far. It is 20 years at the earliest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you also mentioned that your brother had a great love for President Kennedy. Can you give us some examples of that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn't realize it, I mean, because I haven't been with him since the Kennedy family and Kennedy himself, to really become involved in politics because he was in Dallas and I was in Chicago and in Detroit. However, I know that when they, I think it was the Dallas Morning News printed that full page, whatever you call that, statement----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The black bordered advertising?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; the black bordered advertising which more or less definitely insulted the President, he went to the paper and asked them if they needed the money so bad that they had to print such a horrible thing even though the other paper had turned it down.
And I think you know he was so upset about seeing that sign on the roadside about "Impeach Earl Warren" that in the middle of the night he got his roommate out and got Jerry Crafard, I think his name was, to take a picture of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why he was upset about it?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he couldn't see why anything like that could happen. Here is another great man, and he just couldn't understand it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you surmising this or did----
Mr. RUBY. Well, I talked to George Senator who was his roommate, he said he was infuriated that a sign like that should be put up. And that was brought out in the trial, of course, and proved.
Then he on the night of the assassination, or rather on the afternoon he immediately closed the club, and when he was asked if he what about the other night club owners because there is another, I think one or two clubs on the same block as his, yes, there are two more, whether they are going to close or not, in a statement he made, he doesn't care if they close or not, he is going to be closed in respect to the President.
Then he went to the services at the synagogue in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how long he was at that service?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know how long, but I know that he broke down terribly there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody who----
Mr. RUBY. I heard it from the Rabbi who was there, that he was--of course, most of the people there were broken up but he was most unusual because he was

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in deep tears, he really was. And he was so upset and so disgusted with this situation that he called my sister Eileen in Chicago and told her this is a good time to get out of Dallas. He is ashamed of it, that this thing could happen there, and he will probably--he wants to come up to Chicago for a few days, you know, to visit with her. Well, she discouraged him from coming up. He wanted to come to Chicago, and he also called my brother Hy in Chicago after the assassination, and told him how terrible it was, and he thinks he is going to get out of Dallas, he is coming back to Chicago altogether.
He also called his good friend, this was all brought out in the trial, not all of it but most of it, although those last two incidents about him calling my brother and my sister were never entered into evidence. We couldn't understand that.
He also called a fellow in California, A1 Gruber, I think is his name, and Gruber said he just couldn't talk. He just couldn't talk he was so broken up.
So we know he was really broken up, and he must have really loved him because otherwise you just don't do these things. And the fact that he went to the newspaper and complained to them for even taking the ad, and I mean nobody else did this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of his conduct in Dallas before the President was shot that would show his feeling toward President Kennedy?
Mr. RUBY. No; We don't have nothing that I know of. We don't have anything that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can give us some more examples of----
Mr. RUBY. There is a bit about his patriotism that might mean something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. RUBY. This happened many years ago. They were playing the Star Spangled Banner in the stadium in Chicago before all sporting events, and a friend who was with him, a fellow by the name of Mr. Kolitz told me this himself, he was smoking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Mr. Kolitz's first name?
Mr. RUBY. Ira. He was smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was playing and my brother insisted he put out his cigarette, that it wasn't in good taste to be smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was being played.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your brother didn't approve of smoking either, did he?
Mr. RUBY. No; he didn't smoke at all. Well, neither do I, for that matter. But this I didn't find out about until a couple of months ago because I ran into this party in Chicago, and you know talking about these things, and he says, "How could they accuse your brother of being a Communist", and then he related this incident to me. Fie says, "I remember, you know at the stadium when this happened, and he actually insisted I put the cigarette out."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack in your dealings with him, did he strive to be important and did he strive for recognition, things like that?
Mr. RUBY. I would say, well, he tried to be a success. He always wanted to be a success in life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his idea of being a success?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, having a family and being happily married and earning a steady living.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about his desires to have a family?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; on a few occasions. Once when he had financial failure and he was terribly depressed back in the early fifties, I think, he came to Chicago. He was just terribly depressed and he says, "Well, it looks like it is the end for me." And, you know, he had no--he was penniless, and I tried to help him out again there. I was trying to look around for a business for him, to be truthful with you because we were doing pretty well, making a living, a good living, and I thought I could help him out but he decided to go back to Dallas again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, there have been reports that Jack was the kind of a person who liked, who wanted everybody to know him and liked to be a big shot, some people might say. Did you have any experiences with him that would indicate anything about those kind of observations?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was pretty well known in Chicago. He always was a good athlete, a good ballplayer. He was a very great swimmer, and he was very close to Barney Ross, so I would say--and he had many friends, so he

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was pretty well liked, and maybe some people would get the impression that he was a big shot but actually I don't think he ever went out of the way to try to show people he was a big shot.
However, maybe I didn't notice it because I am his brother. And he was my older brother, and so maybe I just didn't notice it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can explain what seems to be on the one hand signs of his obsessions about being a Jew, such as you pointed out as fighting the Bundists and things like that, and on the other hand, what appears to be a lack of regular devotion to going to church services every week and keeping the religious home, and so forth?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the reason for that is I am more or less the same way as I explained before because in the breaking up of our home we were drawn away from this life, you see. I was living with--on a farm--I was living with gentile people and there wasn't any synagogue there to go to, and so we drifted away from the services. And because before that we used to go to the Hebrew school, before our home was broken up, we all went to Hebrew school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn Hebrew?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. Jack and--we went only until our home was broken up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living in your home, did your parents keep a kosher home?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a kosher home?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent was it a kosher home?
Mr. RUBY. We would call it orthodox, you know, change of dishes and all that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dietary rules?
Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is right. Sure, sure. But, of course, when we----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What language was spoken in the home?
Mr. RUBY. To our parents Yiddish, you would call it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your parents speak English?
Mr. RUBY. Very little; very few words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you willing to make this statement that your conversations with your parents were always in Yiddish?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; I can't say that because my father spoke a little English.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about with your mother?
Mr. RUBY. My mother I would say in her conversations she threw in a word here or there in English; about 95 percent was Yiddish. My father picked up more English words because, in fact, he was working as a carpenter, and being out among English-speaking people more than, more so than my mother who was home all the time, he had an opportunity to learn some English words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when the children got older, the family continued to live together, as I understand it, there was a home where all of the unmarried children and the parents lived?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In that home up until the time that your mother died, did you observe, were the dietary practices observed all the time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. Every Passover we changed the dishes, and so on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is just once a year. What about on a daily basis, did you observe every day the dietary----
Mr. RUBY. Well, you don't observe it every day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some homes do.
Mr. RUBY. I don't understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some homes keep separate dishes for meat and dairy products.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we had separate dishes until my mother passed away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the regularity of attending church services, temple services, did you go every week to temple services?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; not all of us. I know I didn't. My sisters did. My sister did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which sister?
Mr. RUBY. Marion. My father did until he became ill, you know, and then he passed away.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any resentment in the home toward the practices that were maintained by your parents there, failure to converse regularly in English and perhaps their old world habits?
Mr. RUBY. I don't understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which is common in all families, I think, in which the practices that are observed in the home are not the kind of practices that you see on television or in the movies. Was there resentment among any of the children toward the fact that here was a home in which a foreign language was spoken, and practices were observed which did not appear to be the same practices as the people who were on top in American society?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I would say so. However, my mother insisted that we follow the lines of the Orthodox Jew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of you object to that insistence by your mother?
Mr. RUBY. No; nothing because there wasn't too much to object to, because it was the same food. I mean there is really nothing---however, if we would take the wrong utensil, you know, because there are two separate ones, we would be bawled out for taking the wrong one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Jack during the time that he was in Chicago lived for various periods outside the home, didn't he?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For example, I believe he lived with either Sam Gordon or Alex Gruber in a separate apartment in Chicago in the early thirties. Do you recall that?
Mr. RUBY. I know he lived with Gruber but I don't know how long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----
Mr. RUBY. Because it was in the early thirties, I was going to high school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any particular reason why Jack did not want to live with the family?
Mr. RUBY. None that I can remember. There may have been, but I may not be, you know, I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He also was away from Chicago from about 1933 to 1937.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he went to Frisco to work there; yes. I think he went there. I think my sister was there or he went first, I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his friend Leon Cooke?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; very well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke of Jewish background?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with Jack's activities with Leon Cooke in the labor union?
Mr. RUBY. A little bit. I think I knew----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you tell us about that, what--how long did Jack work in the union?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I know as far as I know, I think he helped organize it. It was Leon Cooke's idea. Leon Cooke was an attorney and his father, Mr. Cooke, was a scrap iron and junk handler, and for some reason or another of his own thinking he decided that it would be a good idea to organize a union because the although he was doing very well as an attorney without it, the workers in this industry were being paid, I think at that time, 10 cents or 15 cents an hour, and it was actually slave wages practically, as you can easily understand, and so they organized the union or how they go about it I don't even know, but they did, Leon Cooke and Jack helped organize it, but I think Leon did all the legal work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anybody else who helped in the organizing efforts?
Mr. RUBY. Even I went out once to hand out those flyers, you know, "join the union."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you hand them out and what would you do?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they would come out from work and I would just hand it to them, as they leave the plant, just hand it to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any personal contacts with members, with employees?
Mr. RUBY. No; never. I just----

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people that you know of who worked in the union with Jack?
Mr. RUBY. I think my brother Hy worked for a little while in the union.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam work in the union?
Mr. RUBY. I don't think so. I only went there on very rare occasions, very rare. I may have been to one or two meetings in all. I didn't get paid for it either, just, you know, kicks just to hand out the flyers, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other people who were involved in the union?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I know John Martin, he was the president.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is the fellow who was killed?
Mr. RUBY. No; he shot Leon Cooke.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He shot Leon Cooke. Is John Martin still living?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I know there was another fellow but I can't think of his name. There was a fellow by the name---I can't think of their names. They had odd names. Of course, that goes back in the thirties, I think, right in there somewhere. I don't even remember where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke a fellow about your brother's age?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack would have been in the late twenties at the time that he and Leon formed the union?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I don't know what year it was even. I don't even remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was in the late thirties, wasn't it.
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I really don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any girls that Jack dated?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Offhand not even one because he was, as I said, 4 years older than I was and we didn't run around together. I know of the one he went with in Dallas, which was, I think she was--I don't know if she testified at the trial or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Alice Nichols?
Mr. RUBY. Alice Nichols.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She is not a Jewish girl, is she?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to be Jack's practice to get interested in women who are, what do you call them, shiksas?
Mr. RUBY. No; I really don't know because I don't know too much. You see he traveled in a different--I am trying to think. When he was going to Marshall High School that is when you usually start going with girls. I don't recall those days because I was too young.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am interested in exploring with you, if you can in a somewhat objective fashion, is some of the contrast between evidence you have shown us with his obsession with the fact that he was a Jew, and other indications that, for example, his dating girls who were gentiles and his living outside of the home away from the Jewish practices which might indicate that he had some desire to escape his Jewish background. Did you see any evidence of that?
Mr. RUBY. No; that I wouldn't--because believe it or not, when my mother passed away and also my father, you know, we have to go say services, we are supposed to say services for a year every day and I didn't keep it up, but he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack went to services after your----
Mr. RUBY. Mother died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Every day?
Mr. RUBY. Every day as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this temple that he attended services at?
Mr. RUBY. Well, there was one, I know, up----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these temples in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. One was in Chicago, I can't think of the name.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother died while Jack was still in Chicago. When was that?
Mr. RUBY. 1944.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was in the service?
Mr. RUBY That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know he did that?
Mr. RUBY. He told us he went to services. You can say services there too as long as the chaplain----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have to go before a rabbi or chaplain of some sort?
Mr. RUBY. Really not necessarily; it is not--because they say if it isn't available, you can still say the prayer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This could be something he could have done on his bunk, his cot in the Army?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. There he had access to a chaplain though because it wasn't a large camp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. When I say you don't have access, I am thinking of overseas where it might be a small unit, like where I was there wasn't a Jewish chaplain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is this occurred while he was in the service. In order for him to properly observe mourning for your mother would he have had to have done something so that somebody else would have to be aware he was doing this other than Jack simply telling them. Would he have done something in his area where he lived or light a candle or would he have gone to a chaplain or gone. in some place and prayed where people could have seen him. What would there have been observed by other people?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. How can I answer that. I wasn't with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you know what the requirements are of the Jewish faith to properly observe mourning for people.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would some of the things have been that Jack would have had to have done?
Mr. RUBY. Just say the prayer, to read it out of the book or if you know it from memory, by that time after a while you know it from memory.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he could have repeated that to himself?
Mr. RUBY. It is possible. But if a rabbi or services are available that is where you usually go. But if you are at a remote place where it isn't possible to have services then you can say it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you actually recall Jack telling you that he was going to services for your mother?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you that he went?
Mr. RUBY. He just said he was carrying on the services but I don't remember now. This happened 20 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is your not saying that you recall him telling you he went to a chapel or to a synagogue or a temple.
Mr. RUBY. No; all he said was that he said services.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBY. But as to where I didn't think it was at that time necessary to question him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other examples of this concern with his religious heritage?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I told you about he read all the books or as many books as he could on the Jewish atrocities, whatever you might call them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did this down in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. He did this in Dallas that I know, my sister told me. In fact, when I went there he had several books.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind, do you remember the names of the books?
Mr. RUBY. He had one called "Eva" and "Exodus", and another one there that he was reading, and then he would give them away after he finished. I can't think of the other one. It was still there while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this that you observed "Eva" and "Exodus"?
Mr. RUBY. Right after the incident I went down there.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So after the incident he was reading "Eva" and "Exodus"?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was before. I saw the books after but he had been reading them before because they were in my sister's apartment. She had taken everything from his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that he had certain religious type books?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Books on Jews in the apartment that he was living in?
Mr. RUBY. Right; definitely. In fact, he went out of his way as I stated before, to go and listen to lectures at the synagogue on the Jewish problem and the atrocities in Germany, and they showed films, real detailed films on what actually took place and he made it a point to be there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur?
Mr. RUBY. This happened before the incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before?
Mr. RUBY. I don't know. I don't know. But my brother Sam told me about this just last week that when his mother-in-law, his wife's mother, was down in Dallas, Jack insisted she come along to see these films and bear the lecture.
You see, as I said, I have to get these, some of these things through a third party because I am in Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, sure. I want to get them straight as to where you got them so we can follow them out.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, this is on another subject, that at one time when you were questioned about why Jack and you had a falling out with respect to Earl Products, that you stated that Jack was not spending full time on the business, and that was one of the reasons?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we didn't think so. This was Sam's and my opinion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what was happening?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we wanted him to sell our products that we were manufacturing, and he was, seemed to be always getting involved with selling somebody else's product. Of course, there was a commission involved or whatever it was, but I didn't--we didn't approve of it. We wanted to push our products and so, of course, he and Sam had a real runout or whatever you call it and then we finally decided to buy him out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other products was he selling?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he was selling costume jewelry. Well, we don't manufacture that. We wanted him to devote his entire interest into the company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would costume jewelry, could it be considered a companion line for anything you were selling. Would he go into the same stores to sell costume jewelry?
Mr. RUBY. You possibly could, you possibly could, but it was our opinion that he should devote all of his time to our products.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack's responsibility in Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. He was actually the sales manager.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have employees working in there?
Mr. RUBY. I was Just going to add, he didn't have any, he was the only one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He managed himself?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he was a good salesman, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this----
Mr. RUBY. Anyhow, with leading too we weren't hitting it off so good, and my sister Eva was asking him to come down to Dallas, so between everything we finally decided to buy him out and he took his money and went down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did his sales activities require him to spend most of his time outside of the place of business?
Mr. RUBY. Of course; oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your sales were on a mail-order basis and how much was this direct selling that Jack may have been involved in?
Mr. RUBY. Well, at this time, the time he was handling the sales, there was

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very little mail order. It was mostly accounts that he had secured or we had in one way or another.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What area?
Mr. RUBY. Like Mar-Din.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was in St. Louis, wasn't it?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he travel outside the Chicago area?
Mr. RUBY. Not too much; not too much if I recall. I don't recall. I don't think he traveled too much.
I think, now that I think of it, that was one of our problems. We wanted him to go down or go out of town, to Milwaukee or any of the other cities, even close by, and definitely St. Louis where we eventually sold Katz Drug which is a big and good account for us and they turned out to be a pretty fair account. And anyhow as I said one thing led to another. Eva was wanting him in Dallas and he wasn't getting along too well with us so it was decided to buy him out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only other topic I want to cover with you now is the circumstances behind you changing your name from Rubenstein to Ruby. Did Mr. Hubert cover that with you?
Mr. RUBY. Sort of. Well, first off, there are two reasons. First of all, we were, I think, very conscious of the Jewish name of Rubenstein, and we had worked for another Jewish fellow who we all looked up to, an elderly fellow who had been very successful in business and his name was Stanley Eisenberg and he said, "When you send out mail orders you shouldn't use a Jewish name because of the some people won't order even if they can use the merchandise," and anyhow he suggested we use a different name, and so we finally decided since they were calling us Ruby anyhow, with that in mind, and business reasons, that is, and we finally decided to--Sam and I did first, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and Jack did it down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you and Sam changed your name and Jack changed his?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss with Jack the reasons for his changing his name?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea why he changed his name?
Mr. RUBY. No; it never came up. We never discussed it as far as I can remember, we just never discussed that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct then that the changing of your name and Sam's name was directly tied with your activity in connection with Earl Products, and thus since Hyman didn't have any connection with Earl Products and Jack didn't have any connection with Earl Products at the time you two changed your name, why there was no reason for those two at that time to change their name?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Hyman never changed his name, as you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I know that.
Mr. RUBY. I really don't know the reason for Jack. He may have had the same reason but since he did it there, and we never brought it up it just never was brought into our conversations, that I can remember. We may have at that time it was nothing important to us, and it happened along about 15-16 years ago, I think. I think we changed ours in 1947, I don't even remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish this off here now. I want to hand you what has been marked as "Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby, Exhibit No. 3." This is a copy of a report which was prepared by two FBI agents, White and Lee of an interview they had with you on November 25 in Chicago, which consists of two pages. The pages are numbered at the bottom 171 and 172. I want to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to read, that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any changes or corrections that you think ought to be made in that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, here in the first paragraph it says, "In 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby" I think, I am not sure of the date, I think it was 1947, and Jack didn't change his name when we did. He changed it later in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let's read into the record the part you are talking about. In the second paragraph you are talking about the sentence which reads, "He said that in 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby and Sam Ruby along with himself legally changed their names from Rubenstein to Ruby for business purposes." Now the correct date of your changing your name is when?
Mr. RUBY. I think it was 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in any event Jack did not change his name at the same time that you did?
Mr. RUBY. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Take your time and refer to them--you have notes, refer to them.
Mr. RUBY. Down here in the sixth paragraph it says, "following military service Jack returned to Chicago where he resided for several months and was not employed to his, Earl Ruby's knowledge," that is not correct.
When Jack came back from the service we immediately took him in as a partner in Earl Products Co., so that is wrong. And then they said about 1946. I think in 1947 he went to Dallas. However, I am not sure of that. You probably have that date.
I see on this next to the last paragraph where it says Earl Ruby stated he could give no reason why Jack Ruby shot Oswald except Jack is highly--is a highly emotional type and may have thought he was doing everyone a great service, I don't remember that, the exact words. I don't think I would have made that statement completely. I mean----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some feeling at the time that Jack may have thought he was doing a service to the country?
Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I was so upset that I may have made the statement but I am not sure. You know I was--when was this, this was the next day, right, Monday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. That is it for this one. Some of them are almost exact duplicates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as "Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit 4." And that purports to be an interview that Mr. Robichau and Mr. Wilson of the FBI had with you on November 25 in Southfield, Mich. It consists of six pages and they are numbered consecutively at the bottom 173 to 178. Have you had a chance to read that over?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate what changes or corrections should be made thereon?
Mr. RUBY. Well, in the fourth paragraph I am not certain as to whether my father was born in Russia and as to whether my mother was born in Poland. I think my older sisters and brothers know more about that than I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the experience of your mother and father in Europe a topic which was discussed very often in the home?
Mr. RUBY. My father's experiences were, in telling about the hardships of it and the persecutions of the Jews.
I have one other correction here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. In the fifth paragraph it states here that Jack was employed by Earl Products after he first left the service. He wasn't employed. He was a part owner. It clarifies it in the next sentence, however.
Now, on page 2, the third paragraph this states here that I may have said that A. Weinberg was a fourth removed cousin, but I find that that is not so. She never was a cousin of ours.
And then on page 5 in the first paragraph it states that from 1939 to 1942 I was

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employed as a carpenter at building the barracks at Great Lakes. The date is incorrect. I worked there from, on in the year of 1942.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take a pen and cross that off and correct it properly and then initial it, initial your deletion there?
Mr. RUBY. In the last sentence on page 6 it states that Earl and his three brothers had their names legally changed from Rubenstein to Ruby during 1947. That is incorrect. It should be Earl and Sam and Earl's wife, Marge. Shall I change it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don't you?
Why don't you sign that on the first page then. Sign Exhibit No. 4.
I will give you Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to sign that.
One other thing that occurred to me before we go on here. We have obtained various birth records and so forth, and in trying to identify which record pertains to which child, I noticed that your parents--actually your given names were Hebrew names.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct that your given Hebrew name was Isadore?
Mr. RUBY. No; actually I was, the name listed was, Izzy, on my birth record. Is that what you are referring to?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Izzy, I-z-z-y, that is me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what the given names of your various sisters are? Could you relate those to us?
Mr. RUBY. No; I couldn't. Eileen I think was Ida, I think. The others I don't know. You have to talk to one of the older members of the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, also in Exhibit No. 3, I noticed that you had, somebody has put some penciled mark numbers, were those your marks and did you wish to comment on those?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, it is just an error there that should be scrap iron and junk handlers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, it is corrected for the record, you just state it for the record.
Mr. RUBY. Here is a repetition of that other one where it says I stated he was doing every one a great service. I don't remember saying that and I am just not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit No. 5 and has been further marked "Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby" which purports to be a copy of an interview with you also at South Field, Mich., on November 26, 1963, with special agents Robichau and Wilson.
The exhibit consists of six pages, numbered in sequence 11 through 16. I will hand it to you and ask you if you have any corrections that you want to make in that?
Mr. RUBY. Here again on page 5 it states I worked at the building--the barracks at Great Lakes from 1942. It was only during 1942. Shall I change it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you wish.
Do you want to sign Exhibit No. 5?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as "Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 6." This is a copy of an interview which Agent Robichau purports to have had with you on November 27 in Detroit, Mich.
Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or corrections that you would make?
Mr. RUBY. No; no corrections. Shall I sign it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine.
I will hand you what has been marked for identification as "Exhibit No. 7, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby." This purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent George Parfet of the FBI. The interview took place with you on November 28 in Chicago. It consists of two pages and it is numbered at the bottom pages 15 and 16.

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Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or corrections that you would care to make?
Mr. RUBY. Here on page 2 it mentioned that I had never heard of Jack being mentally ill or depressed. However, I know he was depressed several years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know that at the time you gave that interview report, gave that interview?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew he was depressed but I didn't understand it completely. I didn't know that it was called depression at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did it appear, how would you have described it at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Well, that he wouldn't shave and he wouldn't bathe, and he wouldn't go out, but at that time I didn't know what it was called. But after thinking it over, when he came up to Chicago once, he was terribly depressed, as I stated before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you have described him at the time you saw him--what would you have said was the matter with him?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I was just--let me see what words I can use to describe it--I would have said he was disgusted, not knowing that actually he was depressed until I really learned what the word "depressed" means.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his attitude one more of hostility or belligerence toward what had happened rather than one of submission?
Mr. RUBY. No; it was one of submission. He wouldn't go any places as I stated. He didn't want to wash or clean himself up and I had to more or less force him to get in the shower and things of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the things he said, though. Were these--you used the term "disgust"--did he speak in the manner of someone who was disgusted would speak?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn't even have much to say, if I recall. He didn't even have much to say. He tried to keep to himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at that time?
Mr. RUBY. I mean in my presence. In other words, he would go in another room or sit in a chair and just sit there without making--just thinking to himself about whatever was going through his mind. He was listless.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you married at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come and live with you?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at the time?
Mr. RUBY. He came to the family and that is where I came to see him. In fact, he was so depressed that I took him to try to cheer him up, I had to go to New York for a business trip, a show that was taking place there and I took him for a ride, we were driving anyhow and I thought it would pep him up a little bit, you know, to go on a trip. But it didn't help much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your attitude toward him this time one of sympathy or couldn't you figure out what was eating this guy?
Mr. RUBY. No; I would say he was. I just thought he was disgusted with things, little realizing that he was in a state of depression.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But were you sympathetic toward him at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; as I said, that is why I took him on the trip. I tried to encourage him. I told him "Maybe we can find something for you to get into," as I mentioned before, "Some business we can get you started in or something."
However, he decided, as I stated before, to go back to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you why he decided to go back to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. I don't recall, he may have, but I can't recall just now.
I see another, the last paragraph on page 2. I didn't even remember that conversation with the agent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the paragraph?
Mr. RUBY. It states here, "Earl Ruby was specifically asked regarding his residence in New Haven, Conn., in 1940. He has stated that he had never been in New Haven, Conn., in his life and in that period was engaged in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue in Chicago."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that statement a correct statement?
Mr. RUBY. When we were selling we used to travel the east coast but I would

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have only been there--I don't remember being there, but if I had been there, I would have been there only for a day. I think he asked me if I lived there for any length of time, if I recall, but I am not sure. I don't recall this----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue at that time?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, yes; I had an independent cleaning route at that time. I used to call on friends and pick up their cleaning and deliver it right to their home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't operate a cleaning plant?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; but this is where I worked out of. Maybe he just cut it short. I brought my cleaning to this plant in Chicago, on Cicero Avenue, in Chicago, they cleaned it and charged me a wholesale price and I added on a profit, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as "Exhibit 8, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby." It consists of two pages numbered 210 and 211 and purports to be a copy of a report which Agent George Parfet prepared with respect to that interview he had with you on November 28 at South Field, Mich.
Mr. RUBY. I didn't sign the other one.
(Earl Ruby Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, 7, and 8 were marked for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record then, you have just signed Exhibit No. 7, and if you will look at Exhibit No. 8, tell us if there are any changes or corrections you would make in that.
Mr. RUBY. Here again it is almost a duplicate of the previous, what do you call it again, number?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Interview report.
Mr. RUBY. What is this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit No. 8, and this is Exhibit No. 7 that I have here.
Mr. RUBY. The last paragraph again as stated in the previous one. They are almost identical.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; it looks like they are identical copies and they were just included in different places in our materials.
Let me hand it to you then and let me ask you to sign it.
Mr. RUBY. Sign it anyhow?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.
I finally hand you what has been marked for identification as "Exhibit No. 9, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby." This is a copy of a report which Agent Robichau made with you of an interview he had on December 2, 1963, at Detroit, Mich.
Would you tell us if you have any additions or corrections or changes to make in that?
Mr. RUBY. No; this is correct. That she is not related in any way to our family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Now, that concludes all the questions that I have, and I presume that Mr. Hubert has or he would have come back in.
Are there any topics that we haven't covered that you feel that we ought to--is there anything further that you would like to say? You have got the floor.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think, and this took place at the trial, and after the first policeman had testified as to statements made by my brother Jack, that evening when I saw Jack, he told me that he is going to the electric chair.
He said because he never made any of those statements, and now he knows what Wade has in mind, because if Wade wants to send you to the chair he can, and he always does, and that is why he has the record that he has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who the first policeman was who testified?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don't. And he told me on several occasions that he never made the statements the police testified that he did make, and in fact, if the record will be checked, it is proved that the statement that Dean made couldn't have been true--Officer Dean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

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Mr. RUBY. Because at the time when he said he had been talking--that Jack made a statement, Jack, he is the one who said Jack told him 2 days before at 4 o'clock, I think the time was, that he stated, that Jack told him that he was going to get Oswald.
At that time Jack was at home with Eva, so Jack couldn't have made that statement to him, and, of course, this has been brought out in the petition or motion for a new trial, so it is in the official record, so to say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when Jack talked to you the first night after, or after the first police officer testified, was that first police officer Sergeant Dean, or was that another police officer?
Mr. RUBY. No; that was another police officer. Dean was the last police officer, if I recall correctly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you what he did say?
Mr. RUBY. No; but he said he never made those statements.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack----
Mr. RUBY. He repeated it several times on different occasions. He said, "I never made that--any of those statements and I know how Wade operates. He is going to send me to the chair. Now I know what he has got in mind."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that I am going to give you a copy which we have made of your three-page statement which you have entered into the record and which is marked as Exhibit No. 2, and also a copy of Exhibit No. 1 which we have marked.
Mr. RUBY. You are giving that back to me because I have a copy of Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can have that copy back.
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other matters that you think ought to be covered that we haven't covered?
Mr. RUBY. No; I can't think of any. I think we have covered them all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you one last question which I started to ask some hours ago.
That is this: Between the time you first saw Jack in Dallas, and the last time you saw him in Dallas, what changes did you see in him, if any?
Mr. RUBY. I think as I stated, he lost probably 25 or 80 pounds, and he couldn't seem to grasp or understand conversations or questions. I have talked to him many times on the phone since then, and he still thinks--in fact as of now, he don't even think I am alive. He thinks they killed me and my family, my children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw him in Dallas did he have these--did you have any trouble communicating with him, did he show any lack of understanding when you first saw him?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; it wasn't--yes; I must change that. There was a slight hesitancy on his part to understand questions that I put to him. He would shake his head when I would ask him questions sometimes and as though he didn't understand, and these were just ordinary questions of routine matters, just about the trial or Belli. We discussed Belli, and he said, even at the beginning there he said, "They don't talk to me. Why don't they talk to me longer," and yet Belli was there for hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn't the very first time you saw him. This was on an occasion later?
Mr. RUBY. That is right. It had to be later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have nothing more. And if you have nothing more I want to thank you very much for taking this time for us.
Mr. RUBY. I hope I can help you and I hope you can help us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We want to assemble all the facts that we possibly can and prepare a report that will be as fair and as impartial as can be.
Mr. RUBY. You want me to check on that professor at Northwestern University, correct?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you would give us the names of those employees.
Mr. RUBY. The list I have on that. I can possibly get the information as to where my brother received the psychiatric treatment when he was about 10 years old. Do you want me to send that to you?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would get us that we would appreciate it, yes.
Mr. RUBY. Shall I mail it just here the same address?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.


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