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In Re:


College Park, Maryland

Thursday, June 5, 1997

The deposition of SAUNDRA KAY SPENCER, called for examination by counsel for the Board in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, at Archives II, 6381 Adelphi Road, College Park, Maryland, convened at 10:00 a.m., before Robert H. Haines, a notary public in and for the State of Maryland, where were present on behalf of the parties:

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On Behalf of the Assassination Records

Review Board:


General Counsel

Assassination Records Review Board

600 E Street, N.W., Second Floor

Washington, D.C. 20530

(202) 724-0088



Executive Director


Chief Analyst for Military Recrods


Senior Investigator



Saundra Kay Spencer 3

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[2] MR. GUNN: Would you swear the witness,
[3] please.
[4] Whereupon,
[6] was called as a witness, and, having been first
[7] duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
[10] Q: Would you state your full name for the
[11] record, please.
[12] A: Saundra Kay Spencer.
[13] Q: Ms. Spencer, were you employed in November
[14] of 1963?
[15] A: Yes, I was.
[16] Q: What position did you have in November of
[17] 1963?
[18] A: I was 1st Class with United States Navy.
[19] Q: Where did you work at that time?
[20] A: I worked at the Photographic Center in a
[21] special unit for the Naval Aide to the President
[22] for Photography.

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[1] Q: When you say the "Photographic Center,"
[2] what do you mean?
[3] A: That is a Class A lab, which was the
[4] central photo lab for the Navy. It's located at
[5] Anacostia.
[6] Q: Has this been also known as the Naval
[7] Photographic Center?
[8] A: Yes.
[9] Q: I would like to come back to your position
[10] in 1963, but if we could go a little bit earlier
[11] and then we will come back to it later.
[12] Did you have any formal training in
[13] photography?
[14] A: Yes, I entered the basic photography
[15] school out of recruit training in `57. I also had
[16] special color school, Rochester Institute of
[17] Technology and Quality Control, Class B school,
[18] which is the advanced photography school,
[19] cinematography school, a school in recon camera
[20] systems repair and camera repair.
[21] Q: Did you take all of those courses during
[22] the time that you were in the Navy?

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[1] A: Yes.
[2] Q: Were all of those courses taken prior to
[3] 1963?
[4] A: No. The A and the B school, and the color
[5] school was taken prior.
[6] Q: While you were in the Navy, did you do
[7] work other than in the area of photography?
[8] A: No, it was all photographic related - oh,
[9] I take that back. I did go for a tour at recruit
[10] training for women at Bainbridge, Maryland,
[11] was chief drill instructor and swimming instructor.
[12] Q: Would it be fair to say that for
[13] approximately six year between 1957 and 1963, that
[14] your pnncipal area of work was in photography?
[15] A: Yes.
[16] Q: Had you had any experience in photography
[17] prior to the time that you joined the Navy?
[18] A: Yes, since the time I was about 11 years
[19] old, dad insisted we have family hobbies, and
[20] photography was one of them, so I learned
[21] photography. Then, in my senior year of high
[22] school, the photographer that was scheduled to do

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[1] our annuals passed away, and so I took over the
[2] photographic shooting and everything for our school
[3] annual.
[4] Q: Prior to 1963, had you had any experience
[5] with photography of autopsies or of cadavers?
[6] A: Yes. While I was stationed at a Class D
[7] lab at Pensacola, Florida, at the Naval Air
[8] Station, we were responsible for photographing the
[9] autopsy of student pilots for the Navy that didn't
[10] quite make it, and we provided 2 1/4" by 2 1/4"
[11] slides for BuMED (Naval Bureau of Medicine and
[12] Surgery).
[13] Q: Did you take the photographs yourself?
[14] A: Yes.
[15] Q: Did you also develop the photographs?
[16] A: Yes.
[17] Q: Approximately, how many persons did you
[18] take photographs of who were deceased?
[19] A: Probably aroun 10, 12 during the two
[20] years I was on the shooting crew.
[21] Q: I would like to go now to the Naval
[22] Photographic Center in 1963. Could you describe in

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[1] just a very general way the structure of the NPC?
[2] A: Okay. NPC was a three-story building that
[3] was originally built by Eastman Kodak during World
[4] War II, on the top floor was the library and the
[5] color lab primarily.
[6] The second floor was black and white
[7] division and some of the office spaces for support.
[8] The third or the bottom floor dealt primarily with
[9] motion picture production and TV production. They
[10] have a sound stage.
[11] Also on the third floor was the art and
[12] animation divisions.
[13] Q: Was there a White House lab or a White

[14] House section in the NPC building?
[15] A: Yes. It was located within the color
[16] division. It was a single room, probably I would
[17] say about 15 feet by 15 foot with an adjoining 8 by
[18] 10 room, and that was further broken down into two
[19] color print rooms, a black and white print room
[20] with sink, two dryers, and the adjourning room was
[21] where we had the Calumet color processor. It was a
[22] small unit and it all had the C-22 process in it

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[1] plus the color print process.
[2] Q: Was that the area that you worked in?
[3] A: Yes.
[4] Q: Do you know why the White House lab was
[5] located within the color lab?
[6] A: Most of the work primarily was color at
[7] that time, so it was just close proximity, we could
[8] draw our chemistry and stuff from the main lines of
[9] the color lab.
[10] The black and white we did was a lot of
[11] fine development, because they didn't like to use
[12] flash at the White House, so a lot of it was
[13] available-light photography. We did the ultra-fine
[14] development on it, so that was not regularly
[15] done downstairs in the black and white division,
[16] and we had a limited amount of black and white that
[17] we actually produced.
[18] Q: Do you know of any other lab that
[19] typically handled White House photography in 1963?
[20] A: They had two or three photographers that
[21] were with the motion picture crews, but they worked
[22] directly for one person. Chief Knudsen would

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[1] usually direct them and what they did was aside
[2] from anything that we did. They did not have a
[3] special unit.
[4] Q: Do you know of any other lab that
[5] developed still photography in addition to the lab
[6] where you worked?
[7] A: To my knowledge, no.
[8] Q: What was your position in the White House
[9] lab in November of `63?
[10] A: I was Petty Officer in Charge.
[11] Q: Did you have any supervisor who was also
[12] within the White House lab?
[13] A: Chief Knudsen was our liaison and
[14] supervisor from the White House, but we fell also
[15] under the Office in Charge of the color lab, but
[16] they pretty much left us alone, did our own thing.
[17] They gave us a cipher lock on our room and said do
[18] try to stay awake.
[19] Q: When you say "they" left you alone, you
[20] are referring to the color lab itself?
[21] A: The color lab and the Officer in Charge.
[22] They would ask periodically if we needed any

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[1] support or anything, and if we needed anything we
[2] just asked them and we usually got what we needed.
[3] Q: How many people worked under you in the
[4] White House lab in November of `63?
[5] A: It averaged four to five at various times,
[6] people would come and go as they transferred in and
[7] out, they were assigned to the Photographic Center,
[8] and they were then detailed to us.
[9] Q: During the time that you worked in the
[10] White House lab, did you ever develop color
[11] transparencies?
[12] A: No.
[13] Q: Did you have the capability of developing
[14] color transparencies in the White House lab?
[15] A: No.
[16] Q: Did the color division, separate from the
[17] White House lab, have any capability of developing
[18] color transparencies?
[19] A: Yes, they did.
[20] Q: Did you ever work yourself developing
[21] color transparencies in the color lab at NPC?
[22] A: Yes.

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[1] Q: When and what kinds of occasions did you
[2] do that?
[3] A: When I returned, after I had gone to
[4] camera repair school, after I had left the
[5] Photographic Center the first time, I went to
[6] camera repair school, and then I returned, and at
[7] that time, they had placed a lot of mechanized
[8] equipment in, so I started working over there and
[9] stuff. You don't have any hands-on, but you load
[10] the reels and put them in the baskets, and it
[11] travels through until it bumps into the doors.
[12] Q: Was there a capacity to develop positive
[13] color transparencies by November of 1963?
[14] A: Yes.
[15] Q: Do you know what kinds of film were
[16] capable of being developed, color transparencies in
[17] November of `63?
[18] A: It was the Ektachrome. Anything like
[19] Kodachrome was sent out to Kodak directly.
[20] Q: So Kodachrome would be sent to Kodak, but
[21] Ektachrome could be developed?
[22] A: Ektachrome could be in-house, and we were

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[1] working with E-3, E-4s right around that time.
[2] Q: You mentioned earlier a person by the name
[3] of Knudsen. How often did you see Mr. Knudsen?
[4] A: Not that often. When he needed a back-up
[5] photographer, we would go over. Usually, most of
[6] his film come by courier to us or we would go out
[7] to Andrews to pick up from the courier planes, and
[8] he would call us on the telephone, usually daily,
[9] and we would again courier or take his proof prints
[10] over and drop them off, and we would just get them
[11] back by courier circled with what he wanted.
[12] Q: Do you remember who the supervisor of the
[13] color lab was in November of `63?
[14] A: Oh, I can picture his face, but I can't
[15] remember his name. It was a Lieutenant -
[16] Q: Does the name Vince Madonia ring a bell?
[17] A: Yes, that's him
[18] Q: How often would you interact with Mr.
[19] Madonia around 1963?
[20] A: Oh, I would have seen him on a daily
[21] basis.
[22] Q: Now I would like to go to November 22nd of

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[1] 1963, and ask you what you were doing when you
[2] first heard about the assassination of President
[3] Kennedy.
[4] A: I was sitting and color correcting a photo
[5] of John-John in President Kennedy's office, and it
[6] came over the NPC radio speaker that the President
[7] had been shot.
[8] Q: After you heard that, what did you do?
[9] A: We just continued to work until we got
[10] word that they wanted to go ahead and close the NPC
[11] down and move all except our personnel out of the
[12] immediate areas.
[13] In that time, just about all of D.C. went
[14] into a period of mourning, and I think they
[15] released most people at the agencies and stuff, the
[16] ones directly related to the President, I think
[17] were held on call until we actually found out what
[18] was going on.
[19] Q: When you say they moved all the personnel
[20] out of NPC except "our area," do you mean the White
[21] House area or the color lab area?
[22] A: They secured the regular color lab crews

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[1] and we stayed.
[2] Q: So approximately, how many people stayed
[3] when the rest of NPC closed down?
[4] A: There was about three of us up there.
[5] Q: Do you remember the names of any of the
[6] other people who stayed?
[7] A: Carol Bonito was the only one I can
[8] identify. There was a 2nd Class that had come
[9] aboard just recently, but I didn't remember. The
[10] only thing I remember is Kirk was on his name.
[11] Q: Ms. Spencer, I am going to hand you a
[12] document that has been marked Exhibit No. MD 144,
[13] which appears on its face to be an Enlisted
[14] Distribution and Verification Report.
[15] It appears to be dated between June of `63
[16] and October of `63. Could you first look at the
[17] document and see whether you are familiar with that
[18] type of document?
[19] A: The first time I had seen a document like
[20] this is when you had sent me the photocopies of it.
[21] Q: I would like you to turn, if you would, to
[22] the seventh page where the first name at the top of

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[1] the page is Ashton Thomas Larr. Do you see that
[2] page?
[3] A: Yes.
[4] Q: Do you see the name Carol Bonito -
[5] A: Yes.
[6] Q: - down approximately six names or so?
[7] A: Yes.
[8] Q: Is this the Carol Bonito that you were
[9] referring to just a moment ago?
[10] A: Yes.
[11] Q: Could you look through this list - and
[12] take as much time as you need - to see if you are
[13] able to identify any other names of personnel who
[14] were in the White House lab on the days after
[15] November 22nd of `63?
[16] A: Look at the 2nd Class, the gentleman I was
[17] talking about was a 2nd Class. No, I don't see his
[18] name on there.
[19] Q: Okay. Let me show you one name and see if
[20] looks familiar to you.This is on the fourth page.
[21] The first name at the top of the page appears to be
[22] Somers, S-o-m-e-r-s, Joseph M. You do see your

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[1] name immediately under there?
[2] A: Right.
[3] Q: Do you see the name Stover?
[4] A: Yes. Somers was in the color lab side.
[5] Q: But not in the White House area?
[6] A: No.
[7] Q: Is that right?
[8] A: Richard Stover, Smoky Stover was there.
[9] Strickland was a chief. He was down in the black
[10] and white division. Usually, in the color lab, we
[11] had a high number of 1st and 2nd Class and a few
[12] Airmen and 3rd Class, but they - Leo Marshall was
[13] the Chief in Charge of the color lab.
[14] Q: Ms. Spencer, did you have any work after
[15] November 22nd, 1963, that was related to the death
[16] of President Kennedy?
[17] A: Yes. We were requested to develop 4" by
[18] 5" color negatives and make prints of an autopsy
[19] that was - we were told it was shot at Bethesda
[20] after the President's body was brought back from
[21] Dallas.
[22] Q: I would like to come to that in a minute.

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[1] Prior to that, did you have any other work or
[2] responsibilities related to the death of President
[3] Kennedy?
[4] A: We were trying to put together the prayer
[5] cards. Mrs. Kennedy had selected a black and white
[6] photograph, and so we needed a number of them.
[7] What we did was take four prints, 4" by 5" prints,
[8] and do the vignetting on those, and then they were
[9] copied to a master negative, and we took it
[10] downstairs and put it on the automatic black and
[11] white printers to print out the required numbers.
[12] Then, we brought them back and we did not
[13] cut them here. We brought them to the White House.
[14] They took them to the printers and evidently they
[15] were printed and cut there.
[16] Q: Did you bring with you today some examples
[17] of those prints that you made?
[18] A: Yes, I brought just two on a half-sheet.
[19] MR. GUNN: What I would like to do is mark
[20] those as Exhibit No. 146, MD 146, and they will go
[21] into the record as part of that.
[22] [Exhibit No. MD 146 was marked

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[1] for identification.]
[2] BY MR. GUNN:
[3] Q: Do you remember approximately how many of
[4] these prints you made?
[5] A: I think the count was supposed to be
[6] around 10,000, but I am sure we went over.
[7] Q: What is your best recollection as to when
[8] you started working on the prints?
[9] A: It was after the President's body had been
[10] brought back because Mrs. Kennedy personally
[11] selected the print. Chief Knudsen told us which
[12] one, and then we went ahead and pulled it, and
[13] started the process of producing the -
[14] Q: President Kennedy's body arrived at
[15] approximately 6:00 p.m. in Washington, D.C. Does
[16] that help you determine approximately the time when
[17] you began work on the black and white prints?
[18] A: No.
[19] Q: Do you remember whether it was on the
[20] evening of November 22nd?
[21] A: It seems to me like we had gotten word the
[22] following day, which would have been a Saturday.

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[1] Q: So on Friday, November 22nd, 1963, did you
[2] do any work related to either the funeral of
[3] President Kennedy or to autopsy photographs that
[4] you mentioned?
[5] A: No, we were primarily in a standby
[6] position.
[7] Q: Approximately, how long did it take for
[8] you to work on the black and white prints?
[9] A: It took most of the day. It seemed to me
[10] it was late, maybe 2 o'clock in the morning, by the
[11] time we got them over to the White House after we
[12] got the indication of which ones we needed to
[13] print.
[14] Q: So this would be, then, you worked on them
[15] on Saturday, November 23rd, until approximately 2
[16] o'clock in the morning on Sunday, November 24th, is
[17] that -
[18] A: I can't remember the day. All I remember
[19] is that it was after the President's body bad been
[20] taken up to the Rotunda, because as we went to the
[21] White House, the lines were forming for the
[22] Rotunda.

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[1] Q: Just to make sure that I understand this
[2] correctly, that you took prints over to the White
[3] House, the black and white prints, and at that
[4] time, you noticed lines that were forming to go the
[5] Rotunda on Capitol Hill?
[6] A: Yes.
[7] Q: And at the time that you took the prints
[8] to the White House, do you remember whether the
[9] body was at the White House or whether it was at
[10] Capitol Hill?
[11] A: It had to be up at the Capitol Rotunda at
[12] that time.
[13] Q: Now, a few minutes ago you mentioned some
[14] work related to the autopsy photographs of
[15] President Kennedy. When did you first receive
[16] information that you would be doing some work on
[17] that issue?
[18] A: We received a call from the quarterdeck,
[19] and they said an agent was there, and we were
[20] supposed to perform, photographic work for him.
[21] They logged him in and brought him up.
[22] He had in his hand 4 by 5 film holders, so

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[1] I am estimating - he was a large man - so he
[2] probably had four or five film holders.
[3] Q: Now, when you say he called from the
[4] quarterdeck, where was the quarterdeck?
[5] A: The quarterdeck is on the first floor of
[6] NPC.
[7] Q: Do you remember approximately when the
[8] telephone call happened, which day of the week?
[9] A: No, I don't.
[10] Q: Do you remember what you were doing at the
[11] time that you heard about the telephone call from
[12] the quarterdeck?
[13] A: No, I don't. It seemed like it was in the
[14] morning.
[15] Q: Were you working on the developing of the
[16] black and white prints, did it interrupt that, or
[17] was it before or after?
[18] A: No, it was after.
[19] Q: So it was after you had finished the
[20] prints. Had you done any other work between the
[21] time that you worked on the black and white prints
[22] and that you received a call from the quarterdeck?

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[1] A: We were finishing up job orders that we
[2] had, that had been requested from the White House.
[3] Q: Do you remember the name of the agent who
[4] came with the film?
[5] A: No, I don't. The only thing I remember, I
[6] think he said he was with the FBI.
[7] Q: Do you remember we spoke earlier, you and
[8] I spoke on the telephone in December of 1996?
[9] A: Yes.
[10] Q: At that time you mentioned the name of an
[11] agent. Do you remember the name that you used at
[12] that time?
[13] A: No, I don't, because I really couldn't
[14] verify that that was the agent, so I just - he was
[15] an agent.
[16] Q: In December of 1996, you spontaneously
[17] said to us that you recalled the name was Fox, but
[18] that you weren't certain. Does that ring a bell?
[19] A: Yes.
[20] Q: When Mr. Fox or the person came to the
[21] White House lab, approximately, how many other
[22] people were working in the lab at that time?

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[1] A: Two others.
[2] Q: Do you remember who they were? Was one
[3] Ms. Bonito, for example?
[4] A: Yes, and the 2nd Class. The day crew was
[5] on. We had two, usually two 2nd Class that worked
[6] the evening shift.
[7] Q: Now, when you say that the agent had 4 by
[8] 5 film holders, what do you mean by that?
[9] A: It means they either used a 4 by 5 press
[10] camera or a view camera, and a film holder is a
[11] two-sided container that holds two sheets of film,
[12] insert it in the camera, pull the dark slide, do
[13] your photograph, reinsert the dark slide, turn the
[14] holder over, and you are ready - and pull the dark
[15] slide, and you are ready for a second shot.
[16] So there is two sheets of film in each of
[17] the holders.
[16] Q: When you refer to a press camera or a view
[19] camera, are those also known as large format
[20] cameras?
[21] A: Yes, large format cameras.
[22] Q: Now, if I recall correctly, you said that

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[1] your recollection was that he had four or five of
[2] these duplex film holders, is that correct?
[3] A: Correct.
[4] Q: Did the agent speak to you directly or did
[5] he speak with somebody else?
[6] A: To me directly.
[7] Q: What did he ask you to do?
[8] A: He said he needed the film processed and a
[9] print of each of them.
[10] Q: What did you then do?
[11] A: We took them and then checked our
[12] chemistry, brought it up to temperature, and
[13] processed the negatives. We put the negatives in
[14] the drying cabinet, and when they were completed,
[15] we brought them out.
[16] We went into the dark room and made a test
[17] print on them, which we processed and color
[16] corrected, and made the final print, at which time
[19] we took all scraps and anything related to that
[20] job, and put it in an envelope and gave it to the
[21] agent, returned his film holders to him.
[22] Q: Did you keep any material at all related

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[1] to the development of those photographs?
[2] A: Absolutely not. The agent was very
[3] specific that he wanted everything, any test scraps
[4] or anything that we might use.
[5] Q: What type of film did you develop?
[6] A: It was a color negative C-22 process.
[7] Q: Could you describe for me briefly what a
[8] C-22 process is?
[9] A: It is a standard color - well, it was a
[10] standard color negative at the time, and it's a
[11] three-layer image, reverse image of each of the
[12] three basic primary colors with a reddish yellow
[13] masking material that is incorporated into the
[14] negative to prevent bleedover of the various layers
[15] when printing.
[16] Q: Did you develop those negatives in the
[17] White House lab or did you go into the color lab to
[18] develop them?
[19] A: They were processed in the White House
[20] section in the Calumet Unit in the small off-room.
[21] We had the color negative processing capability
[22] plus the print processing.

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[1] Q: When you developed the first test print,
[2] what kind of paper did you put that onto?
[3] A: It's the standard color print material.
[4] Q: Now, you brought with you today a
[5] photograph of President Kennedy that you said it
[6] was your understanding was taken approximately two
[7] weeks before the assassination, is that correct?
[8] A: Yes, the Black Watch performed at the
[9] White House, and these were brought to us, so I
[10] would estimate this print was probably made about a
[11] week to 10 days prior to the printing of the
[12] autopsy material, so the chemical content within
[13] the paper should be fairly close to what the
[14] autopsy photo chemical content was.
[15] MR.GUNN: What I would like to do is to
[16] mark the print that you brought with you as MD No.
[17] 147.
[18] [Exhibit No. MD 147 was marked
[19] for identification.]
[20] BY MR. GUNN:
[21] Q: Now, for MD 147, if I am understanding you
[22] correctly, that the paper that Exhibit 147 was

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[1] developed on is the same material as you used for
[2] the test prints, is that correct?
[3] A: Yes, at the Photographic Center, when we
[4] ordered our paper, we ordered an entire run, and
[5] they cut it to the various sizes that we needed, so
[6] that we could make a 4 by 5, an 8 by 10, or a 16 by
[7] 20, all from the same color pack, and make them
[8] totally match, so that that paper should be the
[9] same batch that was used.
[10] Q: When you said you made a test print, how
[11] many test prints did you make of each negative?
[12] A: The general rule was for us to make a test
[13] print of each, but I am not sure that we tested all
[14] of them, because, you know, they were all the same
[15] subject matter. It was general practice, though,
[16] to go ahead and prepare one test print of each.
[17] Q: Do you know whether more than one test
[18] print was made of any of the negatives?
[19] A: No.
[20] Q: That is, there were no prints -
[21] A: No, there were no - just one test print
[22] was made of each.

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[1] Q: After the color correction, how many
[2] prints were made of each negative?
[3] A: One.
[4] Q: So would it be fair to say that, at
[5] maximum, there were two prints made of each
[6] negative?
[7] A: That is correct.
[8] Q: And were the final prints also developed
[9] on the same paper as Exhibit No. 147?
[10] A: Correct.
[11] Q: And so you would expect that on the
[12] original test print, as well as the original color-corrected
[13] print, there would be the same type of
[14] markings that are on the back of Exhibit No. 147?
[15] A: Yes, it should have the same watermarks
[16] and markings plus the same border pattern.
[17] Q: When you say the "same watermarks," what
[16] do you mean?
[19] A: On the back of all Kodak paper, they print
[20] their Kodak label, and it changes from year to
[21] year, but it just says Kodak paper.
[22] Q: So on the Exhibit No. 147, it appears that

Page 29

[1] there is either a delta figure, or appears a delta
[2] figure, and then Kodak paper, is that what you are
[3] referring to?
[4] A: Yes.
[5] Q: Do you know the difference between a
[6] negative and an inter-negative?
[7] A: Yes.
[8] Q: What is the difference in just a very
[9] general way?
[10] A: A negative is an original piece of film.
[11] An inter-neg is an intermediate negative material
[12] designed to go from a transparency to a print.
[13] Q: Would you have been able to tell, at the
[14] time that you developed the duplex films, whether
[15] the film was a negative or an inter-negative?
[16] A: Yes, because the inter-negative cannot be
[17] processed C-22.
[16] Q: So that you are certain then that they
[19] were not inter-negatives that you developed?
[20] A: No, they were original.
[21] Q: Approximately, how much time did it take
[22] between the time that you first saw the 4 by 5

Page 30

[1] duplex holders and the time that the agent left?
[2] A: It takes - it was 30 minutes for the
[3] processing on the negative, approximately 45
[4] minutes to dry the negatives, and then the
[5] printing, the other print process was 18 minutes,
[6] and then on the drying drums probably about 3
[7] minutes, so less than two hours.
[8] Q: Did the agent leave immediately after the
[9] final prints had been dried?
[10] A: Yes.
[11] Q: So he did not stay around and talk at all
[12] or say anything?
[13] A: No.
[14] Q: Did he talk to you at all about where he
[15] had obtained the photographs?
[16] A: No. When he gave us the material to
[17] process, he said that they - had been shot at
[18] Bethesda and they were autopsy pictures, for us to
[19] process them and try to not observe too much, don't
[20] peruse.
[21] Q: Did he say anything that you now recall
[22] other than what you have just mentioned?

Page 31

[1] A: No. We did sign a chain of evidence
[2] forms.
[3] Q: Could you describe that form for me or
[4] what you recall about that?
[5] A: It was just a form that everybody that had
[6] handled the material signed.
[7] Q: What happened to that form?
[8] A: The agent took it with him.
[9] Q: Did you ever have a copy of that form?
[10] A: No.
[11] Q: Do you remember whether it was typewritten
[12] or handwritten?
[13] A: It was a regular printed form.
[14] Q: Had you seen forms like that before or did
[15] it seem as though it was unique for that particular
[16] situation?
[17] A: It just was that - what the material, you
[18] know, film and paper, and he wrote down how many of
[19] each thing on it, and stuff and I signed off on
[20] it.
[21] Q: Did you use forms like that for your other
[22] work with the White House?

Page 32

[1] A: No.
[2] Q: Have you ever signed a form like that
[3] previously?
[4] A: It pretty much followed like for a
[5] classified piece of material.
[6] Q: Did you develop photographs previously
[7] that had classified information in them?
[8] A: No, we just treated everything that we got
[9] as semi-classified and just kept it within the
[10] unit.
[11] Q: Was there a reason of which you were aware
[12] for treating most of the material as if it were
[13] semi-classified?
[14] A: Because the only people that had the right
[15] to release it was the White House.
[16] Q: After the agent left, did you do any
[17] additional work related to any autopsy photos?
[18] A: No.
[19] Q: Did you do any other work related to the
[20] death of the President?
[21] A: No. At that point, we started to gather
[22] all the negatives and started to make two, 5 by 7's

Page 33

[1] of every negative that we had in the library, and
[2] then we would start to package them and they were
[3] taken away. They were going to take them to the
[4] Kennedy Library when it was built. I left before
[5] that project was completed.
[6] Q: By the way, approximately, when did you
[7] leave the NPC for the first time?
[8] A: Let's see. It was within two or three
[9] months after the assassination.
[10] Q: Did you ever see any other photographic
[11] material related to the autopsy in addition to what
[12] you have already described?
[13] A: Just, you know, when they came out with
[14] some books and stuff later that showed autopsy
[15] pictures and stuff, and I assumed that they were
[16] done in - you know, down in Dallas or something,
[17] because they were not the ones that I had worked
[18] on.
[19] Q: Do you recall any books that you have seen
[20] with autopsy photographs in them?
[21] A: I can't quote the titles of them.
[22] Q: But you have seen commercially published

Page 34

[1] books with what appear to be autopsy photos in
[2] them?
[3] A: Yes.
[4] Q: Did you ever hear of any discussion
[5] related to autopsy photos at NPC?
[6] A: No.
[7] Q: So, did you ever discuss the fact that you
[8] had processed those with Mr. Madonia, for example?
[9] A: No.
[10] Q: Did you ever discuss it with anyone else
[11] your own work?
[12] A: No.
[13] Q: Or did you hear of anyone else at NPC who
[14] had worked on any other autopsy photographs?
[15] A: No.
[16] Q: Did you have any opportunity to observe
[17] the content of the negatives and the prints as you
[18] were working on them?
[19] A: Yes, I did.
[20] Q: Can you describe for me what you saw as
[21] best you can recollect?
[22] A: Briefly, they were very, what I consider

Page 35

[1] pristine for an autopsy. There was no blood or
[2] opening cavities, opening or anything of that
[3] nature. It was quite reverent in how they handled
[4] it.
[5] Q: If I can just ask for some clarification.
[6] Do you mean that the body appeared to be clean, had
[7] been washed? Is that what you are suggesting?
[8] A: Yes.
[9] Q: And that was different from what you had
[10] seen in other autopsy photographs, is that right?
[11] A: Yes. In other autopsies, they have the
[12] opening of the cavity and the removing of vital
[13] organs for weighing and stuff of this nature. The
[14] only organ that I had seen was a brain that was
[15] laid beside the body.
[16] Q: And that was in the photograph of
[17] President Kennedy?
[18] A: Yes.
[19] Q: So there was a brain in the photograph
[20] beside the body, is that correct?
[21] A: Well, yes, by the side of the body, but,
[22] it didn't appear that the skull had been cut,

Page 36

[1] peeled back and the brain removed. None of that
[2] was shown. As to whose brain it was, I cannot say.
[3] Q: But was it on a cloth or in a bucket or
[4] how was it -
[5] A: No, it was on the mat on the table.
[6] Q: Did you see any people in the pictures in
[7] addition to President Kennedy, such as bystanders
[8] or doctors?
[9] A: I don't remember anybody or any real
[10] measuring material, instruments, because normally,
[11] when you are photographing something like that, you
[12] have gauges in there, so that you can determine
[13] size and everything.
[14] Q: Did you see any cards or any
[15] identification markers that would identify an
[16] autopsy number or the victim, or something of that
[17] sort?
[18] A: I don't remember any.
[19] Q: Were there any photographs that would show
[20] the entire body in one frame, do you recall?
[21] A: It seems like there was a full-length one,
[22] kind of shot at a 45-degree angle, at a slightly

Page 37

[1] high angle.
[2] Q: Did you see any photographs that focused
[3] principally on the head of President Kennedy?
[4] A: Right. They had one showing the back of
[5] the head with the wound at the back of the head.
[6] Q: Could you describe what you mean by the
[7] "wound at the back of the head"?
[8] A: It appeared to be a hole, inch, two inches
[9] in diameter at the back of the skull here.
[10] Q: You pointed to the back of your head.
[11] When you point back there, let's suppose that you
[12] were lying down on a pillow, where would the hole
[13] in the back of the head be in relationship to the
[14] part of the head that would be on the pillow if the
[15] body is lying flat?
[16] A: The top part of the head.
[17j Q: When you say the "top of the head," now,
[18] is that the part that would be covered by a hat
[19] that would be covering the top of the head?
[20] A: Just about where the rim would hit.
[21] Q: Are you acquainted with the term "external
[22] occipital protuberance"?

Page 38

[1] A: No, I am not.
[2] Q: What I would like to do is to give you a

[3] document or a drawing, and ask you, if you would,
[4] on this document, make a mark of approximately
[5] where the wound was that you noticed.
[6] MR. GUNN: We will mark this Exhibit No.
[7] 148.
[8] [Exhibit No. MD 148 was marked
[9] for identification.]
[10] THE WITNESS: Probably about in there.
[11] BY MR. GUNN:
[12] Q: And you have put some hash marks in there
[13] and then drawn a circle around that, and the part
[14] that you have drawn, the circle that you have drawn
[15] on the diagram is labeled as being as part of the
[16] occipital bone, is that correct?
[17] A: Yes.
[18] Q: Did you see any biological tissue, such as
[19] brain matter, extruding from the hole that you saw
[20] in the back ofthe head?
[21] A: No.
[22] Q: Was the scalp disturbed or can you

Page 39

[1] describe that more than just the hole?
[2] A: It was just aragged hole.
[3] Q: And it was visible through the scalp, is
[4] that correct?
[5] A: Yes.
[6] Q: Did you see any photographs with the scalp
[7] pulled back or reflected?
[8] A: No.
[9] Q: Did you see any other wounds on the head
[10] in addition to the one that you have identified?
[11] A: I don't remember any additional.
[12] Q: Did you see any photographs that would
[13] have shown the right profile of President Kennedy's
[14] head?
[15] A: I don't remember.
[18] Q: Did you see any photographs that would
[17] have shown any wounds in either the neck or
[18] shoulders or back?
[19] A: It seems like I seen - there was at the
[20] base of the neck.
[21] Q: When you are pointing, you are pointing to
[22] the front of your neck to the right side?

Page 40

[1] A: Yes.
[2] Q: Do you remember approximately how large
[3] that injury was?
[4] A: Just about the size of like your thumb
[5] pressed in.
[6] Q: About how much time were you able to look
[7] at the photographs, did you get a good observation
[8] of them, was it fleeting? How would you describe
[9] that?
[10] A: It was - they traveled. You placed them
[11] on the drum, they would travel around, so after you
[12] place it on, probably about 15 seconds or so, they
[13] start under the drum and it rotates around, and
[14] then they drop off, and you grab them and stack
[15] them. So probably just 10 or 15 seconds.
[16] Q: Are your observations based upon the
[17] prints rather than the negatives?
[18] A: Yes. Like I said, the negatives have
[19] masking on them, and you don't see too much on a
[20] color negative when you are printing.
[21] Q: And for the prints to dry, that takes
[22] approximately how long?

Page 41

[1] A: Probably about two to three minutes by the
[2] time it goes on, it goes around the drum.
[3] Q: And that is all entirely on the drum?
[4] A: Yes.
[5] Q: So the prints themselves would not hang
[6] from a wire or anything?
[7] A: No, they have electric drum, and it puts
[8] the ferrotype finish to it. That was before RC
[9] papers when you can air-dry them.
[10] Q: What is your best recollection of the
[11] approximate size of the wound on the throat that
[12] you identified before?
[13] A: Just about like that, just like a finger,
[14] half-inch.
[15] Q: Do you remember whether the wound was
[16] jagged or how that appeared?
[17] A: No, just - it appeared just indented. It
[18] was, again, clean, pristine, no - you know, it
[19] wasn't an immediate wound, it had some cleaning
[20] done to it or something.
[21] Q: Were you able to observe any
[22] characteristics of the room in which the

Page 42

[1] photographs were taken?
[2] A: No.
[3] Q: Do you remember what the walls looked like
[4] or whether they -
[5] A: No, everything basically concentrated
[6] straight on the body. It didn't appear like the
[7] normal medical setting, you know. I don't know
[8] whether they did it in a separate room or they used
[9] special coverings on their tables or what, but I
[10] don't remember, you know, hospital stainless-steel
[11] gleaming or anything, or people running around in
[12] green scrubs or anything.
[13] It was just, like I said, it looked a very
[14] reverent laid out arrangement.
[15] Q: What is your best recollection as to how

[16] long after the autopsy you received the
[17] photographs? Let me try and put it in terms of
[18] some other events that happened. Do you remember
[19] whether you developed the photographs before or
[20] after the funeral, for example?
[21] A: It was before.
[22] Q: Before the funeral. But your recollection

Page 43

[1] also is that it was after the black and white cards
[2] had been delivered to the White House?
[3] A: Right.
[4] Q: Do you recall whether it was on a Sunday
[5] or a Monday?
[6] A: It was sometime over the weekend. It was
[7] during the day. I believe the body arrived back at
[8] the White House Saturday morning about 1:00 a.m.,
[9] so - because we had a black and white photograph
[10] of it being carried into the White House. It was
[11] dark, so it would had to have been - the film
[12] would have had to have been shot by that time.
[13] MR. GUNN: What I would like to do is ask
[14] that the autopsy photographs be brought in and have
[15] you have an opportunity to take a look at those.
[16] We will take a short break.
[17] [Recess.]
[18] BY MR. GUNN:
[19] Q: Ms. Spencer, what we would like to do is
[20] to start with the very first view, which
[21] corresponds to color Nos. 29, 30, and 31.
[22] Ms. Spencer, could you go to the light box

Page 44

[1] and tell me whether you can identify the color
[2] transparency of View No. 1 and Image No. 29, as
[3] having seen that before.
[4] A: No.
[5] Q: In what respect is the Image No. 29
[6] different from what you previously saw?
[7] A: Like I said, there was none of the blood
[8] and matted hair.
[9] Q: Can you explain what you mean by that?
[10] Are you seeing blood and matted hair on Image 29?
[11] A: On the transparency.
[12] Q: But that was not present, the blood and
[13] matted hair was not present -
[14] A: I don't remember.
[15] Q: - on the images that you saw?
[16] A: No.
[17] Q: Would you describe Image No. 29 as a color
[18] positive transparency or a color negative?
[19] A: This is a color transparency.
[20] Q: Ms. Spencer, could you again look at the
[21] color transparency and tell me whether, again, you
[22] are certain that you did not develop color

Page 45

[1] transparencies of the autopsy of President Kennedy?
[2] A: No, I did not process any color
[3] transparencies.
[4] Q: Let's turn to the print. Can you identify
[5] the print as being a print that you printed
[6] yourself at Naval Photographic Center?
[7] A: I don't believe it is.
[8] Q: Can you look at the back - turn the light
[9] on, please - can you look at the back of the print
[10] and identify whether that is the same type of paper
[11] as the Exhibit No. 147, that you brought with you
[12] today?
[13] A: No, it's not.
[14] Q: In what respect do you see it as being
[15] different?
[16] A: The Kodak logo is smaller.
[17] Q: So, based upon your experience, would it
[18] be safe to say that it is your best recollection,
[19] best understanding, that the print of the autopsy
[20] that is in the Archives does not correspond with
[21] the paper that you were using in November of 1963
[22] at NPC?

Page 46

[1] A: Correct.
[2] Q: Could you look again at the image of View
[3] No. 29? In what respect is the image that you see
[4] in 29, in the color print, different from what you
[5] observed on the prints that you made at NPC?
[6] A: Like I said, the body was pristine, and
[7] this has dried blood on the support, the ear, and
[8] the hair.
[9] Q: Do you recall whether there was a metal
[10] holder for the head on the images that you
[11] developed?
[12] A: I don't remember a metal holder.
[13] Q: Do you remember what kind of cloth or any
[14] other material was identifiable in the photograph
[15] in comparison to what you see on this image?
[16] A: As I remember it was a darker cloth. This
[17] appears to be a towel over one of the trays,
[18] stainless-steel trays.
[19] Q: Previously, you said that, if I recall
[20] correctly, that the background in the photograph
[21] looked different from what you had previously seen
[22] in terms of - I understood that you said that it

Page 47

[1] didn't look like a hospital.
[2] A: Right.
[3] Q: Could you describe the photograph that you
[4] see in front of you now, whether that is the same
[5] sort of background that you noticed in the
[6] photographs that you developed?
[7] A: Well, it would be the dark background,
[8] because normally, when you are doing the autopsies,
[9] the overhead lights and stuff are on. It appears
[10] that the lights have been turned off and that they
[11] were using a flash rather than just overall general
[12] lighting.
[13] Q: Do you remember, in the photographs that
[14] you developed, whether the background was visible,
[15] such as the walls?
[16] A: No.
[17] Q: You don't remember?
[18] A: I don't remember, but it appeared that it
[19] was darkened, the room was darkened.
[20] Q: So, to that extent that the images would
[21] seem to correspond to what you recollect -
[22] A: Right.

Page 48

[1] Q: - the background would seem to, you don't
[2] notice any difference?
[3] A: No.
[4] MR. GUNN: Just so the record is clear,
[5] that the one that Ms. Spencer has just been shown
[6] is the first view, left side of head and shoulders,
[7] corresponding to color Nos. 29, 30, and 31.
[8] Could we now see the second view,
[9] identified in the 1966 inventory as the right side
[10] of head and right shoulder, corresponding to color
[11] Nos. 26, 27, and 28.
[12] BY MR. GUNN:
[13] Q: Ms. Spencer, have you had an opportunity
[14] now to look at the second view corresponding to
[15] color Nos. 26, 27, and 28?
[16] A: Yes, I have.
[17] Q: Do those two images correspond to the
[18] photographs that you developed at NPC in November
[19] of 1963?
[20] A: No.
[21] Q: In what way are they different?
[22] A: There was no - the film that I seen or

Page 49

[1] the prints that we printed did not have the massive
[2] head damages that is visible here.
[3] Q: Putting aside the question of the damage
[4] of the head, does the remainder of the body, the
[5] face, correspond to what you observed?
[6] A: No.
[7] Q: In what way is it different?
[8] A: The face in the photographs that we did,
[9] did not have the stress that these photos - on the
[10] face that these photos show.
[11] Q: Could you describe a little bit more what
[12] you mean by that?
[13] A: The face, the eyes were closed and the
[14] face, the mouth was closed, and it was more of a
[15] rest position than these show.
[16] Q: Could you look at the back of the print
[17] and see whether that paper corresponds to the image
[18] that you brought with you today, please.
[19] A: No.
[21] these prints are printed on is not the paper that
[22] you were using at NPC in November of 1963, is that

Page 50

[1] correct?
[2] A: Correct.
[3] Q: Could we next look at View 3, identified
[4] as the superior view of the head corresponding to
[5] color Nos. 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37.
[6] Ms. Spencer, have you had an opportunity
[7] to look at the third view?
[8] A: Yes, I have.
[9] Q: Do you those two images, again when you
[10] are looking at a positive transparency and a print,
[11] do those correspond to the photographs that you
[12] developed in November of 1963?
[13] A: No.
[14] Q: In what way are they different?
[15] A: Again, none of the heavy damage that shows
[16] in these photographs were visible in the
[17] photographs that we did.
[18] Q: So, just to make sure that I am
[19] understanding correctly, previously, in your
[20] deposition, you described a wound, a small,
[21] circular wound in the back of the head,
[22] approximately two inches or so as I recall that you

Page 51

[1] stated, whereas, these show a much larger injury,
[2] is that correct?
[3] A: That is correct.
[4] Q: Could you once again take a look at the
[5] paper on which the print is made and tell me
[6] whether that corresponds to the paper that you
[7] brought with you today?
[8] A: No.
[9] Q: Just so the record is clear, the paper
[10] does not correspond to the paper that was used in
[11] November `63 at NPC.
[12] A: No.
[13] Q: Is that correct?
[14] A: That's right.
[15] Q: Thank you. Could we look at the fourth
[16] view, which is identified as the posterior view of
[17] wound at entrance of missile height and shoulder,
[18] corresponding to color Nos. 38 and 39.
[19] Ms. Spencer, do you have the fourth view
[20] in front of you now?
[21] A: Yes, I do.
[22] Q: Can you tell me whether those photographs

Page 52

[1] correspond to the photographs that you developed in
[2] November of 1963?
[3] A: No, it does not.
[4] Q: In addition to what you have already said
[5] in describing the other photographs, is there
[6] anything additional in these photographs that
[7] appears to you to be different?
[8] A: They are using a measuring device, which I
[9] don't remember in any of the photographs that we
[10] produced, and I don't remember any hands on the
[11] President during any of the shots that we
[12] reproduced.
[13] Q: Now, could you look at the place on the
[14] back of President Kennedy's head that corresponds
[15] to where you identified a wound in the back of the
[16] head. Do you see that wound present in these
[17] photographs?
[18] A: No, I do not.
[19] Q: Would this view have shown the wound that

[20] you previously saw in the photographs of President
[21] Kennedy's head?
[22] A: Yes. The wound that I seen would have

Page 53

[1] been approximately in this area.
[2] Q: If we described that as very roughly the
[3] cowlick area, would that be fair to say?
[4] A: Yes.
[5] Q: Could we look at the fifth view now,
[6] described as the right anterior view of head and
[7] upper torso including tracheotomy wound, color Nos.
[8] 40 and 41.
[9] Let me try the first question as being
[10] whether the paper on the print matches the paper
[11] that you brought with you to the deposition today.
[12] A: No, it does not.
[13] Q: Ms. Spencer, could you look at the wound
[14] in the throat of President Kennedy and tell me
[15] whether that corresponds to the wound that you
[16] observed in the photographs you developed?
[17] A: No, it does not.
[18] Q: In what way are they different?
[19] A: This is a large, gaping gash type.
[20] Q: That is, in the fifth view, it's a large,
[21] gaping gash, is that correct?
[22] A: Yes. In the one that we had seen, it was

Page 54

[1] on the right side, approximately half-inch.
[2] Q: Is the wound in a different location or is
[3] it just a larger wound on the throat?
[4] A: It could be just a larger wound.
[5] Q: Is there anything else that you can
[6] identify in these images that are different from
[7] what you observed in November of 1963, on the
[8] photographs you developed?
[9] A: Right. None of the flooring was showing
[10] or anything of that nature. I don't remember any
[11] floor. I don't remember any extremely high angles
[12] like this.
[13] Q: Can we turn to the sixth view described as
[14] the wound of entrance in right posterior occipital
[15] region corresponding to color Nos. 42 and 43.
[16] Ms. Spencer, is there any differences that
[17] you noticed between the sixth view, that is now
[18] present before you, and those photographs that you
[19] saw in November of 1963?
[20] A: Yes. They are again using measuring
[21] devices that were not in the pictures that we did.
[22] The section that appears to be the skull weight,

Page 55

[1] the side is not there, and again, there are hands
[2] in the background. This is not a photograph that
[3] was in the set that we produced.
[4] Q: In terms of the locations of the wound, do
[5] you see any differences or similarities with those
[6] that you developed in November 1963?
[7] A: No, there is no similarity.
[8] Q: Could we look now at the seventh view
[9] described as missile wound at entrance and
[10] posterior skull following reflection of scalp
[11] corresponding to color Nos. 44 and 45.
[12] Ms. Spencer, in November of 1963, did you
[13] see any images corresponding to the seventh view
[14] that you have in front of you now?
[15] A: No.
[16] Q: Are you able to identify what that view
[17] is?
[18] A: It appears to be the opening of the
[19] cavity, top of the head, with the brain removed.
[20] Q: Could you look once again at the paper for
[21] the color print and tell me whether that is the
[22] paper that you were using in 1963 at the NPC?

Page 56

[1] A: No, it is not.
[2] Q: Can we take a look at the eighth view,
[3] please. The eighth view is described as the
[4] basilar view of brain, corresponding to color Nos.
[5] 46, 47, 48, and 49.
[6] Ms. Spencer, during your testimony, you
[7] said that you had seen an image with the brain
[8] present next to the body. Is Image No. 8 the view
[9] that you saw previously?
[10] A: No.
[11] Q: Did you see any work in November of 1963
[12] that resembled the view that you are being shown
[13] now?
[14] A: No, I did not.
[15] Q: Could you look at the paper for the color
[16] print and tell me whether that is the paper that
[17] you were using in November of 1963?
[18] A: No, it is not.
[19] MR. GUNN: I think we don't need to take a
[20] look at the ninth here, which is the superior area
[21] over the brain.
[22] BY MR. GUNN:

Page 57

[1] Q: Ms. Spencer, you have now had an
[2] opportunity to view all of the colored images, both
[3] transparencies and prints, that are in the
[4] possession of the National Archives related to the
[5] autopsy of President Kennedy.
[6] Based upon your knowledge, are there any
[7] images of the autopsy of President Kennedy that are
[8] not included in those views that we saw?
[9] A: The views that we produced at the
[10] Photographic Center are not included.
[11] Q: Ms. Spencer, how certain are you that
[12] there were other photographs of President Kennedy's
[13] autopsy that are not included in the set that you
[14] have just seen?
[15] A: I could personally say that they are not
[16] included. The only thing I can determine is that
[17] because of the pristine condition of the body and
[18] the reverence that the body was shown, that - this
[19] is speculation on my part - that perhaps the
[20] family had the second set shot and developed as
[21] possible releases if autopsy pictures were
[22] demanded, because at that time, Mrs. Kennedy was

Page 58

[1] attempting to keep all sensationalism out of the
[2] funeral and maintain the President's dignity and
[3] name.
[4] Q: Are you able to - let's start with a
[5] conjecture as to whether the photographs that you
[6] developed, and the photographs that you observed
[7] today, could have been taken at different times?
[8] A: I would definitely say they were taken at
[9] different times.
[10] Q: Is there any question in your mind whether
[11] the photographs that you saw today were photographs
[12] of President Kennedy?
[13] A: There is not doubt they are pictures of
[14] President Kennedy.
[15] Q: Is there any doubt in your mind that the
[16] photographs that you saw in November 1963 also were
[17] of President Kennedy?
[18] A: No, that was President Kennedy, but
[19] between those photographs and the ones that we did,
[20] there had to be some massive cosmetic things done
[21] to the President's body.
[22] Q: Do you have an opinion as to whether the

Page 59

[1] photographs that you developed in 1963 were taken
[2] before or after the photographs that you observed
[3] today?
[4] A: I would say probably afterwards.
[5] Q: So you would think that the photographs
[6] that you developed were taken after reconstruction
[7] of the body?
[8] A: Yes.
[9] Q: In the photograph that you saw in November
[10] of 1963, with the brain lying next to the body,
[11] were you able to observe whether there had been any
[12] damage to the brain?
[13] A: No, it was not damaged as this brain, as
[14] the brain on these photographs were.
[15] Q: When you say "these photographs," you
[16] means that we just saw today?
[17] A: The ones that we just viewed.
[16] Q: Ms. Spencer, before we started I said that
[19] I would give you an opportunity to add anything if
[20] you have any additional statement that you would
[21] like to make, and I will just give you that
[22] opportunity now.

Page 60

[1] A: I had brought along a photograph that was
[2] reproduced approximately 10 days prior to the time
[3] that we printed the autopsy photographs that we
[4] produced at NPC, and because of the watermark and
[5] stuff on it does not match those that I viewed, and
[6] NPC bought all of a run, which meant every piece of
[7] paper within the house would have the same
[8] identical watermarking and logo on it, I can say
[9] that the paper was not a piece of paper that was
[10] processed or printed out of the Photographic Center
[11] within that time frame.
[12] Like I said, the only thing I can think of
[13] is that a second set of autopsy pictures was shot
[14] for public release if necessary.
[15] MR. GUNN: Ms. Spencer, thank you very
[16] much. We appreciate your time in coming all the
[17] way from Missouri. Thank you very much.
[18] THE WITNESS: I wish I could have
[19] identified them for you.
[20] MR. GUNN: Thank you.
[21] [Off the record.]
[22] BY MR. GUNN:

Page 61

[1] Q: Ms. Spencer, there is one other question I
[2] would like to ask you about, and this is in
[3] reference to a document that is labeled Exhibit MD
[4] 121, that appears on its face to be a cover sheet
[5] and a memorandum signed by James Fox dated February
[6] 16, 1967.
[7] After we concluded the deposition, I
[8] showed you a copy of this document. Did you have
[9] an opportunity to read that?
[10] A: Yes, I did.
[11] Q: Can you tell me, if you wouldn't mind
[12] going through the document, and telling me anything
[13] that you perceive in the document either to be
[14] accurate, that is, as you recall, or inaccurate and
[15] different from what your own recollection is?
[16] A: Okay. During the time that I saw Agent
[17] Fox, he did not have any black and white film with
[18] him. The only thing he had in his possession was
[19] color film, and he remained with us while we
[20] processed it and printed it. It was not printed on
[21] different days.
[22] Q: Mr. Fox says that this happened on

Page 62

[1] November 27th, 1963, which would be approximately
[2] five days after the assassination.
[3] Does that correspond with your
[4] recollection as to when he came to - or when an
[5] agent came to the NPC?
[6] A: No. My recollection was before the burial
[7] of President Kennedy.
[8] Q: And in the statement by Agent Fox, he
[9] refers to color positives. From what you have said
[10] before, that would not be -
[11] A: No.
[12] Q: - correspond with what you yourself
[13] observed, is that correct?
[14] A: Right. The only thing that we processed
[15] was color negative material.
[16] Q: Mr. Fox also refers to going with Chief
[17] Robert Knudsen. You knew Mr. Knudsen, is that
[18] correct?
[19] A: Yes. Chief Knudsen was our liaison boss
[20] between the White House and the Photographic
[21] Center, he was not with the agent when the agent
[22] came, and if he was in the building, he would have

Page 63

[1] come up.
[2] Q: So to the extent that Mr. Fox is correct
[3] in what he makes on the statement, this is not the
[4] event that you yourself witnessed, would that be
[5] fair to say?
[6] A: That is correct.
[7] MR. GUNN: Thank you very much.
[8] [Signature not waived.]
[9] [Whereupon, at 11:40 a.m., the deposition
[10] was concluded.]


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