Testimony Of William Kirk Stuckey

The testimony of William Kirk Stuckey was taken at 9:35 a.m., on June 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE, Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in your deposition which you are about to give?
Mr. STUCKEY. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Be seated. State your full name?
Mr. STUCKEY. William Kirk Stuckey.
Mr. JENNER. I regret, Mr. Stuckey, that we have to inconvenience you to have you back to have your deposition taken again. But through some happenstance in New Orleans, the transcript of your deposition never went beyond the U.S. attorney's office apparently, and. we appreciate your willingness to come up here and be with us today so that I can depose you again. When I took your deposition before you had received a letter from Mr. Rankin, had you not?
Mr. JENNER. I guess I called you when I was down there, didn't I?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And I explained to you at that time, the time before when I took your deposition, however, the legislation under which the Commission was authorized and the Executive order of the President creating the Commission and the rules and regulations of the Commission on the taking of depositions?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I understand that.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. In effect, we want to inquire of you in particular with respect to the course of events in which you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in New Orleans in 1963 at some radio broadcasts which you, in your professional capacity, that is, your professional business, had organized, had put on, and you had some fairly extended acquaintance with Oswald in a professional sense.
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Would you like me. to tell you from the very first?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think for the very first, for the purpose of the record, identify yourself, who you were then and who you are now, and your profession and business and associations.
Mr. STUCKEY. Fine. At present I am employed at Tulane University as a special writer. In this capacity I write a syndicated column on higher education which Tulane distributes to 85 newspapers throughout the country. In August 1963 I was a broadcaster with WDSU Radio, New Orleans. This is the NBC station. I had a weekly 5-minute radio program on economic and political developments in Latin America. I had been in this particular specialty for about 2 years previous. Prior to that I was a columnist with New Orleans States Item, with an interest in Latin America. As a result I had been looking for a long time for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in that area.
Mr. JENNER. If you would excuse me a second, would you give me your formal education because, as I recall in taking your deposition in New Orleans, you acquired some interest in South American relations which led you into looking for something on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Formal education was a B.S. degree in journalism from Southern Methodist University in Dallas. After graduation I went into the Marine Corps and completed 2 years of service, after which I spent some 8 months in Central America and Mexico traveling around, essentially hitchhiking, some walking, some third-class bus riding, in which I acquired a good deal of Spanish and an interest in the countries.
Mr. JENNER. What is a third-class bus?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is where the goats and chickens aren't on top; they are in there with you.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. STUCKEY. After I returned I went into the newspaper business.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, how old are you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Thirty-two.
Mr. JENNER. You are married?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; and--
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family and you live in New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. What is your address?
Mr. STUCKEY. 2317 State Street, and I have two children. I went into the newspaper business after returning from Latin America, working largely as a political reporter for a number of years.
Mr. JENNER. Were you giving attention to any particular phase of politics?
Mr. STUCKEY. Local government?
Mr. JENNER. Thinking of it in the higher sense local government.
Mr. STUCKEY. You mean in a higher sense, in a subject category?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. I was interested particularly in planning and zoning.
Mr. JENNER. Did you acquire also an interest in South American relations?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; well, I had this interest, but I had no opportunity to exercise this interest in my work until the New Orleans States Item made me a columnist. This was in February 1962 when I started my column, and this extended on until April, I believe it was, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. What was the title of that column?
Mr. STUCKEY. New Orleans and the Americas. That was really my first professional involvement in Latin American affairs. After I left the paper, doing public relations, I acquired this radio program, this radio broadcast, which was a very short thing. It was largely to keep my name in front of the public in this capacity. And-
Mr. JENNER. That was a broadcast program?
Mr. JENNER. It was put on regularly, was it?
Mr. STUCKEY. Once a week.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the NBC station down there?
Mr. JENNER. Radio and television or just radio?
Mr. STUCKEY. Radio.
Mr. JENNER. That program had a title?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; Latin Listening Post.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us in general the character of that program and to what you were directing your attention.
Mr. STUCKEY. Politics and economics. I inquired a bit about the Cuban situation. I had a number of programs that I think you would classify as news features. They didn't particularly have current events value, but they were interesting topics, and I just went and talked about them. I talked about social welfare programs in Uruguay, the Mexican Revolution; Central American common market; the character of the Latin American university student, this sort of thing.
Occasionally, when I had a live one, when I heard there was somebody in town who was a Latin bigwig, I would bring him on and we would talk whatever he wanted to talk about.
Mr. JENNER. How did you organize those programs?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well--
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any preliminary discussions with the people you were going to have on your programs?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; sometimes I took up to 3 to 4 days to prepare a 5-minute broadcast.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. Actually it is 5 minutes which demands about 700 words, which was just about as long or longer than the column that I used to write, so these columns, 700 words, which would run about a column and a half of type in the paper, consumed within a 5-minute period on the broadcast. Anything else along that line?
Mr. JENNER. I think that covers it generally. Tell us the nature of your work with Tulane University.
Mr. JENNER. You became associated with Tulane when?
Mr. STUCKEY. In January, January 6.
Mr. JENNER. Of this year?
Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that work?
Mr. STUCKEY. I write a syndicated column on higher education. The column is called Dimension in Education. We deal with all manner of events and affairs affecting higher education, and sometimes things that do not affect higher education. I roam the spectrum of interest in the things. It is extremely interesting.
I sometimes write about such things as the Common Market, the humanities versus science, all this sort of thing, all the current controversies we get into.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in the nature of public relations work?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; very soft shell public relations. Sometimes we don't even mention Tulane. It is just that I think probably Tulane just wants to be established as a fount of wisdom in this particular field, and that is why they print these reports.
Mr. JENNER. During the year 1963, did an event occur, a series of events occur, in which you became acquainted with a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. In your own words, taking it from the very first instant of the course of events, perhaps even before you met this man, tell us in your own words, and it doesn't have to be chronological, but the way you would put it out, about it.
Mr. STUCKEY. Fine. As I told you before, as a Latin American columnist and one interested in affairs, I had been looking for some time in New Orleans for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. There haven't been any. Most of the organizations that I had contact with in my work--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--how did you learn about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mr. STUCKEY. I was going to get to that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. Most of the organizations that I had contact with were refugee organizations, very violently anti-Castro groups, and there were a number of them in New Orleans. These people were news sources for me also. I used them quite frequently. One day, I think it was in August, the latter part of July of 1963, I was in the bank, and I ran across a refugee friend of mine by the name of Carlos Bringuier. Bringuier told me--
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, identify Mr. Bringuier.
Mr. STUCKEY. Mr. Bringuier at that time was the New Orleans delegate to the Revolutionary Student Directorate which was an anti-Castro group with headquarters in Miami. He also ran a clothing store called Casa Roca. He was an attorney in Havana before the Revolution, the Cuban Revolution of 1958, and had been very active ever since I had known him in New Orleans in anti-Castro activity. I had interviewed him on a number of occasions in connection with Cuban current events. Mr. Bringuier ran into me in the bank, and I spoke to him and he said that a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had appeared in New Orleans and that he had had an encounter with him shortly before.
Mr. JENNER. That interested you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, very much, very much, because I knew something of the reputation of this group. I regarded them as being about the leading pro-Castro organization in this country, a propaganda organ for the Castro forces, and I had done a considerable amount of reading of congressional testimony, articles, and this sort of thing about their activities. Mr. Bringuier said he had had an encounter with a young man who was representing the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me you had known Bringuier and you had had contact with him; had he ever been on your program up to this moment that you speak of?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had never been on my program, but, as a newspaperman, I had contacted him quite frequently for information.
Mr. JENNER. Proceed.
Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that--this is in the bank--a few days before, I don't recall exactly--
Mr. JENNER. This was a chance meeting?
Mr. STUCKEY. This was a chance meeting with Mr. Bringuier. I was cashing my paycheck and Bringuier told me a few days before he had run into this fellow in his store, this Casa Roca--this young man had approached him.
Mr. JENNER. A young man had come in?
Mr. STUCKEY. A young man. At the time he had mentioned no name. If he had, it wouldn't have made any difference to me because the name meant nothing.
He said a young man came in, introduced himself and said he was a veteran of the Marine Corps, he had just gotten out, and that he was very disturbed by this Cuban situation and he wanted to do something about hurting Castro, or trying to change the regime. He, in some way--
Mr. JENNER. This was something this up-to-the-moment unnamed young man had said to Mr. Bringuier?
Mr. STUCKEY. Had said to Mr. Bringuier as Bringuier recounted it to me later. I am telling you Bringuier's story now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wanted to make clear that you were.
Mr. STUCKEY. Right. Now, this young man said somehow he knew Bringuier was connected with the Revolutionary Student Directorate, how, I don't know. But, at any race, as I said, he offered his services.
Then he presented a Marine Corps Handbook to Bringuier. He said, "This might help you out in your guerrilla activities and such. This is my own personal Marine Corps Handbook", which Bringuier accepted. That was the gist of the conversation. Bringuier told me that sometime after that, I don't recall exactly how long it was, he was walking on Canal Street, the main street of New Orleans, about a block away from his store, and he ran into this young man again. This time he was distributing literature, handbills, and the hand bills said, "Hands Off Cuba", and on the handbill it said, "Join the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, Charter Member Branch".
It was this same young man. Bringuier, who was a rather excitable fellow, and he couldn't understand why this fellow was now distributing pro-Castro literature whereas a short time before he had posed as an anti- Castro man. So Bringuier got into a shouting match with him on the street corner, and I think some blows were exchanged, I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. Bringuier is again telling you this?
Mr. STUCKEY. This is what Bringuier is telling me, because I did not witness this. At any rate, regardless of what happened, I don't know the exact sequence of events, the police arrived on the scene and took everybody down to the jail. Oswald was booked for disturbing the peace, and I think later fined $10, and let go. Well, this is what Bringuier told me in the bank.
Mr. JENNER. I may assume up to this moment you had not seen anything in the newspapers on this subject?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I hadn't. There wouldn't have been anything in the newspaper had it not been in my column, and my column at that time did not exist.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. STUCKEY. So I mentioned to Bringuier that I was interested in locating this fellow and talking to him. Bringuier gave me his name.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that this was the early part of August?
Mr. STUCKEY. Or the latter part of July, I am not really sure. It wasn't--I would say probably the early part of August. It was a Friday. I can tell you that.
Mr. JENNER. It was August 9, 1963.
Mr. STUCKEY. That is quite possible. So I inquired as -to the name and the address of this fellow, and telephone, if any, and Bringuier said his name was Lee Oswald, and he lived on Magazine Street, somewhere in ,the 4000 block, I forget the exact address, and he had no telephone. This was a Friday. My program is on a Saturday.
I decided that early the next morning I would go by this address and ask Oswald if he would appear on my program. So very early, it was about 8 o'clock the following--wait a minute, I am losing some chronology. This was not the next Saturday. Then some time elapsed, and, at any rate, it was August 17 when I went by his house. I forget now exactly why this time did elapse, but it did.
Mr. JENNER. Had he again distributed hand, bills?
Mr. STUCKEY. To my knowledge; no. He may have. He may have. But, of course, I had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not carrying stories about it, and I, well, just had no contact with him at all.
I did not meet him until August 17, at which time I went by his house on Magazine Street to ask him to appear on my program. This was early in the morning, about 8 o'clock. I went early because I wanted to get him before he left.
Mr. JENNER. This was a Saturday?
Mr. STUCKEY. It is a Saturday. I knocked on the door, and this young fellow came out, without a shirt. He had a pair of Marine Corps fatigue trousers on. I asked him, "Are you Lee Oswald ?" And he said, "Yes."
I introduced myself and I told him I would like to have him on my program that night. So he asked me in on the porch. This was a screened porch, and I had a very brief chat. He said he would ask me inside for some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had better talk on the porch.
Mr. JENNER. Describe this Magazine Street place. Were you able to find it easily?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; no problem. It was on the side of the house or the entrance was on the side.
Mr. JENNER. Was on the side and somewhat back from the front?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side of the property, but it was off set, to the rear.
Mr. JENNER. Frame house?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was a frame house, as well as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. So we had a few cursory remarks there about the organization. He showed me his membership card to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which was interesting, and .it identified him as the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and it was signed by A. Hidell, president.
Mr. JENNER. Was that president or secretary?
Mr. STUCKEY. President, A. Hidell. He was identified on the card. as I recall, as the secretary.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald; yes. It was a card on which there was a handwritten--it said "Mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name "Lee Oswald" was in the center of the card. In the lower right-hand corner it was signed by A. Hidell, president.
Mr. JENNER. Was this name familiar to you?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact, I would like to explain this, that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred to me again, I never thought of the name again, until after the assassination when Mr. Henry Wade of Dallas on television on a Sunday, I believe, mentioned that Oswald purchased a rifle from a Chicago mail-order house and had used the name A. Hidell in purchasing the rifle. When he said "A. Hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light bulb over my head, I recalled the name. Otherwise I would never have remembered the name. Oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. There were several-- I will mention them if you would like.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would.
Mr. STUCKEY. There were two speeches by Fidel Castro. One was "The Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought." Another was "Bureaucracy and Sectarianism." There was a pamphlet by Jean Paul Sartre, and this pamphlet was called "Ideology and Revolution." There was a pamphlet called "The Crime Against Cuba," by Corliss Lamont. I believe that is all the literature that he gave me at that time. I got some subsequently to that which, incidentally, Mr. Jenner, I promised you that pamphlet the last time I saw you, and I couldn't find it, but I have since found it, and I brought it up for you. I will give it to you now before I forget.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will show you what is marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize the person shown on that photograph.
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is Lee Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Does it look like him as of the time that you interviewed him on Saturday, August 17?
Mr. STUCKEY. Almost exactly. He was dressed almost in exactly the same way, with a short-sleeved dress shirt, and a tie, and a black looseleaf notebook under his arm which apparently he used as a holder for literature.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you a series of exhibits, Pizzo Exhibits Nos. 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C. Would you examine those and tell me whether your friend, Mr. Bringuier, is shown on any of those photographs?
Mr. STUCKEY. He is not there.
Mr. JENNER. You were referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A; he is not on that one?
Mr. STUCKEY. No. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is of Oswald alone.
Mr. JENNER. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is a picture of Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Pizzo Exhibit 453-B is also Oswald, but Bringuier is not in the picture.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We will mark the pamphlet you have brought with you, which is entitled "The Cuban Episode' and the American Press: April 9--23, 1961" as Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.

(The pamphlet was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Handing you Stuckey Exhibit No. 1, being a 15-page pamphlet--I guess it is 16 including the back cover--is that one of the pamphlets that he handed to you and exhibited to you on August 17 and Saturday morning when you interviewed him in his home?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; this is not one. I received this pamphlet that night when he showed up at the radio station.
Mr. JENNER. We will go into it later on, but I think for purposes of identification. was it a pamphlet that he gave you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he gave it to me.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the radio broadcast you are about to describe?
Mr. STUCKEY. Immediately prior to that. Incidentally, I requested all the literature that he had.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; and he gave me everything he could find that morning which were the four or five pieces I have already described. Then at night he says, "Look, i found this also", and he brought this.
Mr. JENNER. Meaning Stuckey Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. STUCKEY. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. JENNER. I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. I in evidence. All right, we had you still on Saturday morning talking with him at his home on Magazine Street.
Mr. STUCKEY. Right. We discussed literature, his literature, the pieces of information I have already described. He showed me the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card. I asked him about the membership of this organization, and he said there were quite a few, quite a few members. The figure 12 or 13 sticks in my head, I don't really recall why now. There were that many officers or something like that, 12 or 13 people he mentioned that he was responsible to, or active workers, something like that, although I guess I shouldn't mention it until I have a more coherent idea of why he used that.
Mr. JENNER. Just give your best recollection of what he said on that occasion.
Mr. STUCKEY. Right. Also as I recall, he was very vehement, insisting he was not the president, but was the secretary, and that was the occasion in which he pulled out his card showing that he was the secretary, not the president, and this other gentleman, Hidell, was the president.
Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you in any special way that he was apparently careful to point out to you that he was secretary instead of president?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; it made no impression on me, none whatsoever. It seemed logical. He appeared to be a very logical, intelligent fellow, and the only strange thing about him was his organization. This was, seemed, incongruous to me that a group of this type or he should associate with a group of this type, because he did not seem the type at all, or at least what I have in my mind as the type. I would like to mention this. I was arrested by his cleancutness. I didn't expect this at all. I expected a folk-singer type, something of that kind, somebody with a beard and sandals, and he said--I found this fellow, instead I found this fellow who was neat and clean, watched himself pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he watched his--
Mr. STUCKEY. He seemed to be very conscious about all of his words, all of his movements, sort of very deliberate. He was very deliberate with his words, and struck me as being rather articulate. He was the type of person you would say would inspire confidence. This was the incongruity that struck me, the fact that this type of person should be with this organization. That is the gist of the first meeting. I asked him to meet me at the radio station that afternoon about 5 o'clock for the interview, and he agreed.
Mr. JENNER. This was to be an interview preliminary to a broadcast?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, this was to be a recorded interview prior to the broadcast.
Mr. JENNER. Why would you do that?
Mr. STUCKEY. To avoid the possibility of errors. It is a risky business going on live. You know, you never know when you are going to slip up and, particularly, with somebody as controversial as a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee you want to know what you have in hand before you put it on. During that day I thought quite a bit about Oswald before he arrived at the station for the interview, and I was interested in his articulateness and in discussing this organization, so I had decided during the day that instead of Just interviewing him for 5 minutes, which was the length of my program, that I would just let him talk as long as he wanted to.
Mr. JENNER. In the private interview with you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; but record it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. And then I thought after doing that I could take some excerpts out for a 5-minute program, and then ask the management at the station if they would be interested in running the whole thing in toto as a demonstration of the line of this organization. So this was the decision I made before the broadcast.
I drew up a lengthy list of questions, and then I met him that afternoon about 5 o'clock at the studios of WDSU, 520 Royal Street, New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. That is in the French Quarter, is it not?
Mr. STUCKEY. In the French Quarter. He was dressed exactly as he is shown in this picture.
Mr. JENNER. Garner Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. STUCKEY. Which is Exhibit No. 1, short-sleeved dress shirt with a tie, a black looseleaf notebook under his arm. There were no preliminary remarks particularly. We just went immediately into the studio. It was at this point that he gave me this pamphlet.
Mr. JENNER. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. And we were seated--this conversation was witnessed or listened to by an engineer in WDSU by the name of Al Campin.
Mr. JENNER. Was that prearranged?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, you have to have an engineer to record it.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. STUCKEY. He just happened to be there operating the equipment, but he was, I mean he was, there, as a witness, and was greatly interested in it, because like me he hadn't run across, too many of these birds, and we were curious to see how they thought and why.
So at that time then we began a long rambling recorded interview which lasted 37 minutes, covered a wide range of subjects.
Naturally, a lot of the subjects had to do with Cuba. We discussed the problem of the refugees leaving Cuba, we discussed as to whether or not Castro was an independent ruler of an independent nation or whether he was merely the head of a colony which was the line that I took.
Mr. JENNER. Head of a colony?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; a Russian colony, Cuba. This was the line that I took in this questioning. We discussed the economic situation in Cuba, as to what had happened to the economy since Castro took over. We discussed a few abstracts. I asked him the definition of "democracy," which was interesting to me.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a transcript of that interview?
Mr. STUCKEY. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Have you brought one with you?
Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please?
Mr. STUCKEY. Incidentally, I have a letter here that you may or may not be interested in. Father Clancy is the chairman of the political science department at Loyola University in New Orleans. I sent him this transcript as a Catholic and as a political science man just to see what his opinion was, and he went much stronger than I ever did after reading that, but the last paragraph, I thought, was interesting, and I thought you might be interested in reading the letter.
Mr. JENNER. The witness has furnished me a 13-page document on light-weight, green-tinted paper. The first page is entitled "Transcript of Taped Interview Between William K. Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald, August 17, 1963," and the last page of which, the last three lines of which, read:
"STUCKEY: Tonight we have been talking with Lee H. Oswald, secretary of The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans," et cetera. "(Standard close.)"
I wonder if you would be good enough, Mr. Stuckey, to initial each of these 13 pages. We will mark this as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. I suggest you put your initials at the bottom.

(The document was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The witness has now placed his initials at the foot of each of the 13 pages of the transcript.
When and how was this document prepared, Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?
Mr. STUCKEY. I typed it.
Mr. JENNER. You typed it as you were listening to your tape?
Mr. JENNER. You have also brought with you the actual original tape of this interview?
Mr. JENNER. That is the radio tape?
Mr. JENNER. And this 13-page document is a literal transcription or translation of that tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there are some errors, but they are very, very small errors, largely typographical errors.
Mr. JENNER. Prepared by you?
Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the 13-page document, and if there are any errors other than obvious typographical errors which you would like to draw to our attention, I wish you would do it. You were going to look through it and see if there were--
Mr. STUCKEY. I can tell you in advance there are no errors in fact, and no deletions, with the exception of this last paragraph which I abbreviated by saying "standard close." All that was, was I would have been talking with Lee Harvey Oswald--"This is Bill Stuckey, Latin Listening Post. Good night"-that is all that was, no facts at all.
Mr. JENNER. The words ("standard close") appearing on the last line of page 13 is a shorthand way of your designating your customary signoff?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence Stuckey Exhibit No. 2.
Mr. STUCKEY. I was going to refer to this definition of "democracy" that he gave.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. Are you interested in it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. This is interesting to me for a number of reasons, not just the meaning but how adept this fellow was at taking a question, any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your question. He was expert in dialectics.
"STUCKEY: What's your definition of democracy?"
Mr. JENNER. You are reading from Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 now?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
"OSWALD: My definition--well, the definition of democracy--that's a very good one. That's a very controversial viewpoint. You know, it used to be very clear, but now it is not. You know, when our forefathers drew up the Constitution they considered that democracy was creating an atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth; these rights, well, the classic rights of having life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. In Latin America they have none of those rights, none of them at all, and that is my definition of democracy, the right to be in a minority and not to be suppressed; the right to see for yourself without government restrictions such countries as Cuba, and we are restricted from going to Cuba."
The question was, "What is your definition of democracy?", and we discussed the passport ban as part of the definition.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, he did not respond to your question?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; except obliquely to make the point.
Mr. JENNER. Did you find that he did that--it will appear, of course, in that transcript
Mr. STUCKEY. Constantly throughout the interview.
Mr. JENNER. In your discussions with him he parried your questions by not answering them.
Mr. STUCKEY. He would--his general attack would be "I am glad you asked that question, it is very good," and then he would proceed to talk about what he wanted to talk about, and completely ignore your questions on occasions. So there were at least half a dozen examples of that.
Mr. JENNER. In the transcript which you have furnished?
Mr. JENNER. Did you supply a copy of that transcript to anyone else prior to your bringing Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 today?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. STUCKEY. To the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. JENNER. When you were interviewed by the FBI you supplied the FBI with a transcript?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact I gave the tape to the FBI the Monday following the interview, which would have been August 20, 1963. I told them I thought it was very interesting, and if they would like to have a transcript they could copy it, which they did. They made a copy and then they gave me a copy of their transcript, and returned the tape to me.
Mr. JENNER. But Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 is the one that you prepared?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And not one that the FBI prepared.
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right. This was on Saturday afternoon. Were you scheduled to go on the air that evening?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; my broadcast time is 7:30. I met him about 5, about two and a half hours in advance.
Mr. JENNER. Had you contemplated that the broadcast that evening would be a discourse only between you and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. Is that the way it developed?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is the way it developed.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that broadcast? I should say to you we have from--what is the radio station?
Mr. JENNER. From WDSU we have obtained a copy of that tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. Now, you mean of this tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. Because I don't think they have a copy of that tape.
Mr. JENNER. No; the broadcast that evening I am talking about.
Mr. STUCKEY. Is that right? They located it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. Because I tried to find a copy of that mainly to take it off the market and never did locate it. I couldn't find it. This must be a recent development.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; but despite that would you tell us about that broadcast?
As I said, this was a 37-minute, rambling interview between Oswald and myself, and following the interview, first we played it back to hear it. He was satisfied.
Mr. JENNER. That is, you played back the tape of which Exhibit No. 2 is a transcript?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct; Oswald was satisfied. I think he thought he had scored quite a coup.
Then I went back over it in his presence and with the engineer's help excerpted a couple of the remarks by Oswald in this. I forget now what the excerpts were. It has been so long ago. I think we had his definition of democracy because that, in particular, struck me, and we had a couple of his comments in which he said Castro was a free and independent leader of a free and independent state, and the rest of it, as I recall, was largely my summarizing of the other principal points of the 37-minute interview, and it was broadcast on schedule that night.
Mr. JENNER. You had watered it down in length to how many minutes?
Mr. STUCKEY. Five minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Five minutes?
Mr. STUCKEY. Actually 4 1/2.
Mr. JENNER. So you took the portions of your 37-minute interview, which we now have a transcript of, which is Exhibit No. 2, and boiled that down to 4 1/2 minutes?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that was a radio broadcast?
Mr. JENNER. That evening. All right. Was that your last contact with Mr. Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Following the broadcast did you have any further conversation with him, that evening?
Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; no. The only thing that did transpire was I told him that I was going to talk to the news director to see if the news director was interested in running the entire 37-minute tape later, and I told him to get in touch with me, Oswald to get in touch with me Monday, and I would let him know what the news director said, and that was all the conversation we had that night, and he went his way.
I did just that the next Monday, I called the news director and asked him if he had heard the tape, and he said no. I asked him if he was interested in running it. I told him I thought it was pretty interesting, and he said, for some reason, he thought that it would be more spectacular a little bit--there would be more public interest if we did not run this tape at all, but instead arrange a second program, a debate panel show, with some local anti-Communists on there to refute some of his arguments, which I did. Which I did--I arranged a debate show for a regular radio feature that WDSU has called "Conversation Carte Blanche." This is a 25-minute public affairs program that runs daily. It is almost always interviews of people in the news locally or this sort of thing.
I was in charge of arranging the panel, so I picked Mr. Edward S. Butler.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us who he is.
Mr. STUCKEY. He is the Executive Director of the Information Council of the Americas in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. What is that organization?
Mr. STUCKEY. It is an anti-Communist propaganda organization. Their principal activity is to take tape-recorded interviews with Cuban refugees or refugees from Iron Curtain countries, and distribute these tapes which are naturally, it goes without saying, these tapes are very strongly anti-Communist, and they distribute these tapes to radio stations throughout Latin America. As I recall, they came to have over 100 stations using these tapes regularly.
Well, Mr. Butler is a friend of mine. I knew him as a columnist, and it just seemed like
Mr. JENNER. He was an articulate and knowledgeable man in this area to which he directs his attention?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; so I asked him to be one of the panelist on the show, which he accepted, and, incidentally, I let him hear the 37-minute tape in advance; and for the other panelist I asked Mr. Bringuier, Mr. Carlos Bringuier, that we mentioned earlier, as ,being the man who led me to Oswald--I asked him to appear on the show to give it a little Cuban flavor.
And then Oswald called me after it was arranged, and I told him we were going to arrange the show and would he be interested, and he said, yes, indeed, and then he said, "How many of you am I going to have to fight?" That was his version of saying how many are on the panel.
Mr. JENNER. He said this to you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; in a jocular way.
Mr. JENNER. Where did this take place, on the telephone?
Mr. STUCKEY. On the telephone; yes. This was Monday or Tuesday, the 19th or the 20th of August, whenever it was that I had informed him of the show.
Mr. JENNER. Had he called you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I gave him my office number so he called me at a prearranged time. He was very punctual, very punctual. He was always there on time, all those calls came on time. So I informed him about this debate show and he agreed. He said he thought that would be interesting.
Then the next time I see him is on the afternoon of August 21, Wednesday. I believe this was about 5:30.
Mr. JENNER. Was this to be a preliminary session also?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes--well, no; this was to be a live program. The Conversation Carte Blanche panel show is not to be prerecorded as the other one was.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I was just talking about your meeting with him on Wednesday afternoon, the 21st, at 5:30. The program went on at what time?
Mr. STUCKEY. At 6:05.
Mr. JENNER. I see. It was not long before the program.
Mr. JENNER. It was not a preliminary interview such as you had had, which is transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; there were some comments of which I will tell you later.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to add this, this is very interesting, and gave a little bit of spice to this encounter. During that day, Wednesday, August 21, one of my news sources called me up and said, "I hear you are going to have Oswald on Carte Blanche." I said, "Yes, that is right." He said, ."We have some information about Mr. Oswald, the fact that he lived in Russia for 3 years."
He had omitted reference to this in the 37-minute previous interview, and in all of our conversations.
Mr. JENNER. He had never mentioned that subject prior to that?
Mr. STUCKEY. As a matter of fact, he gives an account of his background here.
Mr. JENNER. In Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?
Mr. STUCKEY. Right; in which he completely omits this, Would you like me to read it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you have turned to a particular page?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I will be reading from this. Here is my question.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe we can identify the page.
Mr. STUCKEY. This will be page 11.
Mr. JENNER. Page 11 of Stuckey Exhibit No. 2.
Mr. STUCKEY. My question was:
"Mr. Oswald, I am curious about your personal background. If you could tell something about where you came from, your education and your career to date, it would be interesting.
"OSWALD :"--this is his reply--"I would be very happy to I was born in New Orleans in 1939. For a short length of time during my childhood I lived in Texas and New York. During my junior high school days I attended Beauregard Junior High School. I attended that school for 2 years. Then I went to Warren Eastern High School, and I attended that school for over a year. Then my family and I moved to Texas where we have many relatives, and I continued my schooling there. I entered the United States Marine Corps in 1956. I spent 3 years in the United States Marine Corps working my way up through the ranks to the position of buck sergeant, and I served honorably having been discharged. Then I went back to work in Texas and have recently arrived in New Orleans with my family, with my wife and my child."
There is his answer. He omits the 3 years in Russia by saying that, referring to the fact that, after leaving the Marine Corps he says he went to Texas and then to New Orleans. You will note in there he lied about his rank he achieved in the Marine Corps. Why, I don't know. As far as I know he was just a Pic.
Mr. JENNER. He never rose any higher.
Mr. STUCKEY. And, as I recall, he did not go to Warren Eastern High School over a year.
Mr. JENNER. You have become aware he attended Beauregard only 1 year rather than 2?
Mr. JENNER. That he attended Warren Eastern about 6 weeks or 2 months.
Mr. STUCKEY. That was my impression. I mention this because with this in mind, this is why it was so interesting to me to find out on that day, August 21, that he had lied to me, that he had, in fact, lived in Russia for 3 years, and had just recently returned, and this individual who called me and gave me this information gave me dates of Washington newspaper clippings that I could check, which were stories about his leaving for Russia, or rather his appearance in Moscow in 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this information came to you between the time of your interview transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 and the 21st of August when you were about to put on your debate program, the discussion program?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did this come to you sufficiently in advance to enable you to do some checking vis-a-vis newspaper or articles?
Mr. JENNER. And was he unaware when he came in at 5:30 on the afternoon of Wednesday that you had done this, had received this information and had done some research?
Mr. STUCKEY. He was unaware of that fact. During that day Mr. Butler called, after I had already been tipped off about his Russian residence, Mr. Butler called and said he too had found out the same thing, I think later; his source apparently was the House Un-American Activities Committee or something like that.
At any rate, we thought this was very interesting and we agreed together to produce this information on the program that night.
Mr. JENNER. You were going to face him on the program with this?
Mr. STUCKEY. Unawareness.
Mr. JENNER. You thought it might be a bombshell and be unaware to him.
Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. And we decided it would be me who would do it as the introducing participant. So at about 5:30 that afternoon I arrived at the studio alone. Oswald appeared, and in a very heavy gray flannel suit, and this is August in New Orleans, it is extremely hot, that he appears in a very heavy gray flannel suit, very bulky, badly cut suit, and looking very hot and uncomfortable. He had a blue shirt on and a dark tie, and a black looseleaf notebook.
Mr. JENNER. The same one he had had before?
Mr. STUCKEY. As far as I know. We shook hands, passed a few pleasantries, nothing much of importance.
Mr. JENNER. Were the others present?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; they arrived a little bit later. Oswald was there first, as usual on time, and then Mr. Butler came in with Mr. Bringuier. Both looked as if they had pounds and pounds of literature with them, and statistics.
Mr. JENNER. Did Bringuier and Oswald recognize each other?
Mr. STUCKEY. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was apparent to you they were acquainted?
Mr. STUCKEY. Oh, yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. And that Oswald was acquainted with Bringuier and vice versa?
Mr. STUCKEY. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Had Oswald met Mr. Butler before?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know if he had or not. It was my impression that he had not, but I think he knew who he was. Oswald asked me something about the organization, and I told him, I said, "Well, it is just like your organization; it is a propaganda outfit, just on the other side of the fence," and that satisfied his curiosity.
I think he immediately kissed it off as a hopeless rightest organization, "You can't reason with those people," that approach.
So it was a somewhat touchy exchange there between Bringuier and Oswald in the studio. Bringuier, as well as I recall, started out with a remark like this, saying, "You know, I thought you were a very nice boy. You really made a good impression on me when I first met you." Referring to Oswald's visit to Bringuier in the store when Oswald was posing as an anti-Castro enthusiast, and Bringuier said, "I cannot understand how you have let yourself become entangled with this group."
He said, "I don't think you know what you are doing."
Oswald said something to the effect that, "I don't think you know what you are doing," and back and forth such as this. Bringuier said, "Anytime you want to get out of your organization and join mine there is a place for you," and he says, "I hope one day you will see the light."
And again Oswald says, "I hope you see the light," and that was about all there was to that.
Butler didn't say anything to him particularly. It was just pleasantries, "How do you do," and such.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is Butler?
Mr. STUCKEY. Butler is in his late twenties, he is 29 or 30.
Mr. JENNER. Is he an educated man?
Mr. STUCKEY. College, as far as I know. He is advertising, public relations man before he went into the propaganda business, and that was about the extent of the exchanges prior to the broadcast.
Then I left to go back to the newsroom, which was a different room from the room where we were sitting, to get Bill Slatter, who is the official moderator of the program, and we came back and picked up our participants and went into the broadcast room.

As I recall, in opening the show Bill Slatter said that myself and he would be talking to three other people. In other words, I was not considered a panelist, but there were two station people and three panel people. This was the way it was explained, and Slatter turned the program over to me after a very brief introduction and description of Oswald and a brief capsule of his background in New Orleans to date, and then he turned the show over to me, and I gave a several-minute description of the organization, Mr. Oswald and his activities in New Orleans up to that time, and then I pulled the Russian thing on him.
I did mention--I think I did it this way, I said:
"Mr. Oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his background. He told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted some information, to the best of my knowledge," and I mentioned that that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his residence in Russia, and I said, "Is this true, Mr. Oswald?"; and Oswald said, "Yes."
Mr. JENNER. Would you mark what I hand you, Mr. Reporter, as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3.

(The item was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. STUCKEY. You may be interested in knowing that the Information Council of the Americas, Mr. Butler's organization, has since made a record out of this debate, and just released it about 2 weeks ago, called "Self-Portrait in Red."
Mr. JENNER. I am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it needs refreshing, a 10-page document which I have marked for purposes of identification only as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3. Each of these pages bears the figure 236 in red ink at the bottom. It is also known here as, that is, around here, as Commission Document No. 87B. The pages are numbered at the top I through 10, inclusive. It purports to be a transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about which you speak, a debate on August 21, 1963.
We have obtained from the radio station, WDSU, a duplicate of the tape itself. Would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a transcript of your program that night?
Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to say this about this transcript. I think it is very unfair. These people have put in all of Oswald's hesitations, his "er's," and that sort of thing. I notice when the AP ran an account of this after the assassination they had done all of this on Oswald. They were apparently trying to make him look stupid. Everybody else was using the "er's," but they didn't put those in.
Mr. JENNER. I will say it is a transcript--your attention is drawn to the fact that the hesitations of Oswald are included, but the hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants, are not.
Mr. STUCKEY. Are not.
Mr. JENNER. And in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the actual tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. A slight distortion. I think it is an unfair thing.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will appear, and what I was using this primarily for is to afford you an opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of this program.
What were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about this dissertation?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that program, aside from the Russian residence, the most striking thing was his admission that he was a Marxist. We asked him if he was a Communist--we were always doing this---he was very clever about avoiding the question. He would usually say, "As I said before, I belong to no other organization other than the Fair Play for Cuba Committee."
So we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer, and I asked, "Are you a Marxist?"; and he said, "Yes."
Otherwise, it was--the program was largely speeches by Bringuier and Butler. and Oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism and Marxism and then the distinctions?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. The distinctions between them?
Mr. STUCKEY. A brief discussion. We asked him, I say "we," I mean Mr. Butler asked him the difference between being a Marxist and being a Communist, and this was a typical oblique Oswald answer. He says, "It is the same difference between Ghana and Guinea, and even in Great Britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of the answer.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to this man's deep or fundamental appreciation of Marxism, democracy, communism, fascism, socialism, as the case might be?
Mr. STUCKEY. It was my impression he had done a great deal of reading.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an impression that his knowledge that he was, if I may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems?
Mr. STUCKEY. It would be difficult to say. It was apparent he was acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and such from historical points concerning the development of Marxism.
Mr. JENNER. You see I am seeking your impression at the time and not one that you have formed since.
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; right. Well, I had not run across many Marxists in my time, and I guess this was about the first professional Marxist I had run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject. But again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. I would hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. I just don't know that much about it.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of his demeanor.
Mr. STUCKEY. Confident.
Mr. JENNER. Confident, self-assured?
Mr. STUCKEY. Self-assured, logical.
Mr. JENNER. Able to handle questions?
Mr. STUCKEY. Very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. There was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little stiff. This was another impression of mine about Oswald, his academic manner. If he could use a six-syllable word--
Mr. JENNER. You mean demeanor?
Mr. STUCKEY. Demeanor; yes. If he could use a six-syllable word instead of a two-syllable word, he would do so. Now that characteristic in itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression he searched for the multisyllable word?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; as I say, he would prefer that. I don't know why--of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence," this sort of thing. It was, as a matter of fact, his manner was sort of quasi-legal. It was almost as if he had--as if he were a young attorney. He seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal terminology dealing with constitutional rights.
Mr. JENNER. Did this discussion become heated?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it did. It got rather heated. Mr. Butler, in particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of Marxism and of the nature of the Castro regime and this sort of thing, and Mr. Oswald handled himself very well, as usual. I think that we finished him on that program. I think that after that program the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, if there ever was one in New Orleans, had no future there, because we had publicly linked the Fair Play for Cuba Committee with a fellow who had lived in Russia for 3 years and who was an admitted Marxist.
The interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact that Oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely believable before this. We thought the fellow could probably get quite a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members. We figured after this broadcast of August 21, why, that was no longer possible.
Mr. JENNER. The broadcast ran approximately how long?
Mr. STUCKEY. Twenty-five minutes.
Mr. JENNER. And after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your contacts with Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; it wasn't. The others left, and Oswald looked a little dejected, and I said, "Well, let's go out and have a beer," and he says, "All right." So we left the studio and went to a bar called Comeaux's Bar. It is about a half-block from the studio and this was the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal position, and he relaxed a little bit. This was the first time I ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. We had about an hour's conversation, 45 minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, and, by the way, I mentioned his suit being rather gawky cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in Russia, and they didn't know much about making clothes over there. Would you like me to tell you about the conversation?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would.
Mr. STUCKEY. We covered a number of points because I was relaxed, as far as I was concerned professionally I had no other occasion to contact Oswald. He was off the spot. So we just had a little conversation. During that conversation he told me that he was reading at that time about Indonesian communism, and that he was reading everything he could get his hands on. He offered an opinion about Sukarno, that he was not really a Communist, that he was merely an opportunist who was using the Communists.
We had a discussion about alcohol. I noticed he wasn't doing very good with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that. He said, "Well, you see, I am not used to drinking beer. I am a vodka drinker." And he said, "My father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka," and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the father of his wife Marina. was a Russian Army colonel, and mentioned that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than Oswald was earning in Russia. Oswald told me at that time he was making about 80 rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the Colonel, was making something like 300 rubles a month, so he could afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says-that is who taught him to drink vodka. May I refresh my memory--
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. With some notes?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have mentioned Marina for the first time when you cited her a moment ago. Had he mentioned her prior to that time?
Mr. STUCKEY. Not by name. He only referred to her as "my wife."
Mr. JENNER. Had he identified her as to her origin here or in Russia?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; this was afterward. Naturally when we brought up this business about the Russian residence, he mentioned she was a Russian girl and spoke no English. He said that was the way he wanted it because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his Russian. He wanted to keep his Russian up, and so they spoke nothing but Russian in the home.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any family?
Mr. STUCKEY. He mentioned a wife and child. Now on the first broadcast on Saturday the 17th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief digest of his background, he said he had been in the Marine Corps and then had left and gone to Texas and had recently arrived in New Orleans with his wife and his child. So in that case he mentioned that he did have a daughter and a wife. I see something I have omitted about the first meeting I had with him on the morning of August 17th.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. At his home.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. STUCKEY. He told me at that time he was working as an assistant to a commercial photographer in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You made no check on that?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I didn't check him out.
Mr. JENNER. You were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer.
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you where he was working?
Mr. JENNER. You were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that time an oiler or a greaser at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. STUCKEY. Is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. He was out of work at that time, but he had been.
Mr. STUCKEY. I never could figure out why he referred to the trade of photography. Had he been involved in photography?
Mr. JENNER. When he was in Dallas prior to his coming to New Orleans in the spring of 1963, he had been an apprentice with a company, Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and that sort of thing. He worked in the darkroom. He had very limited experience.
Mr. STUCKEY. That apparently is what he was referring to.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. Here is some additional information if you would like me to bring this out.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. STUCKEY. I am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the 21st, this is with Oswald and me at Comeaux's Bar. I asked him at that time how he became interested in Marxism and he said that there are many books on the subject in any public library. I asked him if he, if his family was an influence on him in any way. He says, "No," and he kind of looked a little amused. He said, "No," he says, "They are pretty much typical New Orleans types," and that was about all he said.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his mother?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he didn't. As a matter of fact, when we referred to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a number of people in the family. I was surprised to find out that it wasn't true, later.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he had relatives in New Orleans, the Murret family.
Mr. STUCKEY. I see.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret is--Marguerite Oswald, that is his mother--that was her sister.
Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that he had begun to read Marx and Engels at the age of 15, but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide that Marxism was the answer was his service in Japan. He said living conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the system, and that possibly Marxism was the answer. He said it was in Japan that he made up his mind to go to Russia and see for himself how a revolutionary society operates, a Marxist society.
Mr. JENNER. He thought that Russia was a Marxist society?
Mr. JENNER. Did you question or discuss with him whether he found that the system in Russia was a Marxist society or whether it was--
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the aspects of Russian political life. Particularly in the factories he said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same sort of attitude that you would find in an American factory. There was a lot of dead-heading, as we say in Louisiana. I don't know what your expression is.
Mr. JENNER. Goldbricking.
Mr. STUCKEY. Goldbricking. The boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice salaries.
Mr. JENNER. Nepotism.
Mr. STUCKEY. Nepotism, this sort of thing. Anybody with any authority at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures and this sort of thing. He said he wasn't very impressed.
Mr. JENNER. Were you curious as to why he had come back to the United States and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, I wasn't curious at the time. We just accepted the fact that he had. In hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him.
Mr. JENNER. The newspaper material that you had read, there was, was there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I don't recall any reference to that in the newspapers. Incidentally, Oswald had told me and had produced a discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps. He produced a card showing this.
Mr. JENNER. When had he done that?
Mr. STUCKEY. This was the night of the 17th at the radio station. Why he did this I don't know. I forget what the circumstances were. I recognized the card because, after all, I was a marine myself and I had one exactly like it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you, in the tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar discuss with him his attempt, when in Russia, to renounce his American citizenship?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the broadcast and, as far as I was concerned, it was satisfactorily answered.
Mr. JENNER. He does respond--you say, and I am now turning to the document identified as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3, a transcript of that radio debate in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact that you had sought an independent source, Washington newspaper clippings---you advert to the fact that Mr. Oswald, and I am reading, "Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959 and become a Soviet citizen.
"There was another clipping dated 1952 saying Mr. Oswald had returned from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there 3 years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?" And he responds, "That is correct." I might say for the record that the date 1952 is the date that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was 1962. That was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that correct?
Mr. STUCKEY. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. But in this informal conversation following the broadcast you did not pursue these subjects?
Mr. STUCKEY. Not those. We discussed other subjects. He made another observation about life in Russia. He said things were extremely bland, homogenized.
Mr. JENNER. Did he elaborate on that?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I thought it was interesting.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.
Mr. STUCKEY. He said that nobody everybody seems to be almost alike in Russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting elements in Russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of population as a result.
Mr. JENNER. That was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect of Russian society that disappointed him?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know. I don"t recall him expressing an opinion as to whether he was disappointed by that. It was a comment. His tone was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my impression. He did say this which was interesting, he said that they wouldn't allow any Fair Play for Cuba Committees in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. He did?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of organization that Russian society would just suppress.
Mr. JENNER. Russian society?
Mr. STUCKEY. The Russian authorities would suppress.
Mr. JENNER. Russian authorities suppress any militant organization of this character.
Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Whether it was Fair Play for Cuba or anything else that is militant in the sense of being openly critical of the Russian society and Russian politics?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense of his feeling that in America you are permitted within the bounds of .the Constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your Government as distinguished from not being able to do so in Russia?
Mr. STUCKEY. He didn't add anything other than what I have already said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "After all, you know here I have this organization and I am doing this. They probably would not let me do a similar thing in Russia," and this was his tone.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was then exercising?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact that he considered himself a loyal American. He was constantly referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical references. He illustrated the development of these rights in America.
Mr. JENNER. Did this informal conversation at Comeaux's Bar go on, you said, for about an hour?
Mr. STUCKEY. Approximately an hour.
Mr. JENNER. Was he comfortable in the sense--was he eager, was he pleased--
Mr. STUCKEY. He was relaxed, he was friendly. He seemed to be relieved it was all over. My impression was he was relieved that he did not have to hide the bit about the Russian residence any more, and that it had been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different. There wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. He seemed fairly open, and I have no reason to believe that everything he told me that night was not true. I think it was true.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that Saturday interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the Monday night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his attitude in Comeaux's Bar after you had revealed the fact that he had been in Russia and had attempted to defect?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, there wasn't any change. He was pretty consistent in his behavior from the very first time I met him until Comeaux's Bar, so this was the only notable change I observed. The manner was always guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on August 17 in his dungarees, his manner was guarded.
Mr. JENNER. Was it guarded in Comeaux's?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. This was much more relaxed?
Mr. STUCKEY. Considerably.
Mr. JENNER. Following that tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar for about an hour, did you ever see Oswald after that?
Mr. STUCKEY. That was the last time I ever saw him.
Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard of Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. On November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?
Mr. STUCKEY. The assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. JENNER. How was it raised, what brought it to your attention?
Mr. STUCKEY. I was watching a TV news broadcast at the time, and they had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the assassination, and they mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald, and I fell to the ground practically; I was surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a video tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Following the debate show of August 21, Bill Slatter, the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night on the show, so he took Oswald back to the studio to repeat some of the statements he had made on .the radio show for video tape. And they interviewed Oswald for quite a while, I would say for 5 minutes. But I understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape, and the rest of it they threw away.
Mr. JENNER. The station has supplied us with what tape they did not throw away, the video tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. They are not throwing away anything at that station any more, by the way, now.
Mr. JENNER. I suppose not. Without specification on your part, if you have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left handed?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't recall. I don't believe that he ever had the opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. I never saw him writing.
Mr. JENNER. At least you never noticed it one way or the other?
Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my--of the impression of him that struck me. He seemed like somebody that took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of person. It was my impression Oswald regarded himself as living in a world of intellectual inferiors.
Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that, please?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we had in Comeaux's Bar. After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald, nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had--his philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or educated person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance in his manner. There was just---well, you can spot intelligence, or at least I can, I think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an opportunity to express his intelligence--that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick to anger?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all, he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier and Butler on the show.
Mr. JENNER. Or that evening.
Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; yes. And, of course, Bringuier's attempt to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary Students Directorate was presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took it, and just more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people might have gotten a little mad. After all you have to recognize that Oswald--they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around there. There were three people who disagreed with him, and he was only one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of environment indicates discipline.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. Now, I show you a Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. Do you see Mr. Oswald shown on that exhibit?
Mr. JENNER. Is there a mark or something over his head?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there is a green cross of some sort.
Mr. JENNER. All right. There is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a vertical arrow, over that man's head. .Do you recognize that person?
Mr. JENNER. Far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is another man with dark glasses on. He has a green vertical stripe over his head. Do you recognize him?
Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above his head is a tail rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. Do you, by any chance, recognize him?
Mr. STUCKEY. This one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the general question do you recognize anybody depicted on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A other than Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald is the only person I recognize in that picture.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Do you recognize Oswald on that picture?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he has the green mark above his head.
Mr. JENNER. That is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that photograph, is it not?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the group of men on that photograph in which Oswald is a part although his back is to the group, do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I recognize nobody.
Mr. JENNER. And to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. Do you recognize any of them?
Mr. STUCKEY. I was just looking over that. One of them looks vaguely familiar, but--no; I would have to say. No; I don't know the women.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the vicinity or place shown?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is the front of the International Trade Mart Building on Common and Camp Streets in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. If I may have that tape so I can put an exhibit number on it--
Mr. STUCKEY. Do you want to take it now rather than go through all the letter-writing proceedings?
Mr. JENNER. I am not going to take it, but I am going to mark it and give it back to you. I don't want to have possession of it. I just want to look to see--
Mr. STUCKEY. Would it be easier for the Commission if it were made into a record rather than a tape? I have a record that I have made, my own personal record.
Mr. JENNER. I will inquire about that. It possibly might be better. You mean a platter, a disc?
Mr. STUCKEY. A platter, a disc.
Mr. JENNER. I suppose a tape is easier to preserve. A hundred years from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might deteriorate.
Mr. STUCKEY. That is true.
Mr. JENNER. So I think we had better have the tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. The disc would start decomposing after about the 25th time you played them, and also they get scratched and such, But one thing is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. That is the kind of nightmares you have with a tape, I was afraid to have a copy made of that thing for a long time just out of fear somebody might make a mistake and it would be erased.
Mr. JENNER. You have insured against that by your disk, a platter?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the 37-minute interview that you had with Mr. Oswald on Monday, the 17th of August?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have made one record which is strictly for my own use.
Mr. JENNER. You say you made it?
Mr. JENNER. I take it it was made for you by somebody?
Mr. STUCKEY. It was made for me by Cosimo's Recording Studio in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. From what source was the tape made by the commercial company you have named?
Mr. STUCKEY. From--
Mr. JENNER. What was used to make the tape? Did you have a tape and you made a copy of the tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; they took my original tape and from that they made the disc.
Mr. JENNER. I see. We are a little confused here. You have an audio tape 37-minute interview, do you?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And you also have a wax disk?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It is the wax disk which is the disk recording from the original tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the wax disk that was made by the commercial people you have named?
Mr. STUCKEY. True.
Mr. JENNER. What I'm getting at, Mr. Stuckey, was an audio tape transcript made of your interview with him on the 17th of August 1963?
Mr. JENNER. Who made the original tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. The original tape was made by WDSU radio in the studios of WDSU, and the engineer doing the taping was Mr. Al Campin.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what happened to that original tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have it; it is in my possession.
Mr. JENNER. Did you bring it with you today?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; this is a copy which you have in your hand.
Mr. JENNER. Did you bring a copy of that tape, which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct?
Mr. JENNER. From what source did you obtain the original tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. From WDSU. When the management of WDSU decided not to run that tape but instead to have the debate, the second show, then they gave me the tape.
Mr. JENNER. What is now marked as Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 is a reproduction on tape of the original tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Who made the reproduction which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. STUCKEY. Cosimo's Recording Studio.
Mr. JENNER. Where are they located? Do you happen offhand to recall the address?
Mr. STUCKEY. It is on Governor Nichol's Street in the 500 block.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the full name of that company?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; Cosimo's Recording Studio, I believe it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have more than one tape reproduction made of that?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have had--how many do I have? I have two copies and the record in addition to the original tape, so there are four pieces of, four items involved.
Mr. JENNER. You will recall, Mr. Stuckey, that you were good enough when I was in New Orleans to take me over to the radio station, what is the name of it again?
Mr. JENNER. WDSU, and there was played in my presence and in my hearing a tape transcript of your 37-minute interview with Oswald on the 17th of August 1963. Is the tape which I have in my hand, marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, the tape that was played that evening in my presence?
Mr. STUCKEY. It is.
Mr. JENNER. And it is in the same condition now as it was at the time I heard it?
Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. It is in the same condition now as it was when it was prepared by Cosimo's?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Subject to my understanding with you that you will receive a communication from Mr. Rankin respecting the preservation of this tape against commercial use, I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 in evidence. I am going to return the tape to you so that there will be no question in your mind but what, in the meantime, until you do receive Mr. Rankin's letter, that the tape has been in your possession, and no one has made, surreptitiously or otherwise by accident or any fashion, a copy of it.
Mr. STUCKEY. Very good.
Mr. JENNER. I think I will state for the record, Mr. Reporter, that in an off-the-record discussion with Mr. Stuckey respecting the audio tape of the interview of August 17, 1963, Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, Mr. Stuckey has agreed that he will supply or return, let us say, Exhibit No. 4 to us upon his receipt of a communication from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for the Commission, that the tape when redelivered to us and becomes part of the record of the Commission, will not be subjected to use for any commercial purpose and reproduction.
Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to ask for one qualification.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. I would like my attorney to read over the letter before
Mr. JENNER. Of course.
Mr. STUCKEY. Before sending you the tape, and in case we suggest possibly some changes---
Mr. JENNER. I think that is wise. Since I am returning the tape to you, why, I am sure you won't send it back unless your counsel is satisfied that you are reasonably protected, because we appreciate the fact that this is personal property and that it has some commercial value to you and, frankly, we would be a little bit surprised if you were not concerned about preserving that.
I think that is all. Is there anything that you would like to add, that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mr. STUCKEY. I think we have covered just about everything.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. Certainly all the hard facts.
Mr. JENNER. What is that?
Mr. STUCKEY. I say certainly all the hard facts. The rest is just a lot of speculation and such.
Mr. JENNER. One other thing. Give Bringuier's physical description, describe Bringuier physically to me, please.
Mr. STUCKEY. Describe Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. No; Bringuier.
Mr. STUCKEY. He is about 5 feet 10 inches. He is not particularly dark-skinned, although his hair is black, his eyes are brown. He has the beginnings of a paunch, although his build is generally rather slender; he wears glasses, smokes cigars. I can't think of a thing else.
Mr. JENNER. OK. I guess that is about it.