The testimony of Ira N. Walker, Jr., was taken at 1 p.m., on April 15, 1964,at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ira N. Walker, Jr.
Mr. Walker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Walker.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Walker, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly about the whereabouts of Jack Ruby near the Police Department Building in Dallas on November 24.
Now, Mr. Walker, I believe you appeared here today by virtue of a request made in writing to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission. For the record, would you state whether you received that letter?
Mr. WALKER, I did; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. WALKER. Must have been last Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in excess of 3 days ago?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, so would you mind taking the oath?
Mr. WALKER. I will.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you solmenly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. WALKER, I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name, please, sir.
Mr. WALKER. Ira N. Walker, Jr.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, sir?
Mr. WALKER. Thirty-five.
Mr. HUBERT. And your address?
Mr. WALKER. 6913 Hightower.
Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?
Mr.WALKER. Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. WALKER. Broadcast technician.
Mr. HUBERT. What station?
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. WALKER. Since 1948.


Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty in Dallas in connection with the visit of the President of the United States on November 22?
Mr. WALKER. I was on duty after the assassination of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first go on duty?
Mr. WALKER. In Dallas, the afternoon of the shooting. We went to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "we," who do you mean?
Mr. WALKER. Our remote crew truck and crew of about four of five of us, the first day.
Mr. HUBERT. You say a remote truck? Is that one of those trucks like a Greyhound bus that you haul the equipment?
Mr. WALKER. It is a little smaller than that, but it is the same.
Mr. HUBERT. What does your crew generally consist of? Or what did it consist of during that period we are talking about?
Mr. WALKER. Well, the first day, that was a rush deal and there wasn't but four of us available, I think. And the second day, there was probably about eight of us, I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the first day, you mean the first day after the President's assassination?
Mr. WALKER. Yes. Just after the assassination we took the truck with the men available and went.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on the 22d?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you talk about the first day, you mean the day of the assassination?
Mr. WALKER. The day of the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you "took" and "went," did you go from Fort Worth?
Mr. WALKER. From Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. To Parkland Hospital?
Mr. WALKER. We had already been to the President's breakfast here in Fort Worth, and I covered that for radio here in Fort Worth. There was a crew with the TV truck here in Fort Worth, and they had already gone home at the time the President was assassinated, and I was still on duty, and they were called back in.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, could you name for us the people who were on the remote truck on the first day after the assassination of the President? That is to say, November 22.
Mr. WALKER. Well, let's see, Johnny Smith and Warren Richey.
Mr. HUBERT. And yourself?
Mr. WALKER. And myself, and Dan Smith went that first day, I think. I don't think he went any more.
Mr. HUBERT. Now each of you all had a definite function to perform, of course?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that we get it for the record and need not repeat it with the other witnesses, tell us the functions of each one of you on the truck.
Mr. WALKER. I was to handle audio, Johnny Smith was the video engineer, and the other two men were cameramen.
Mr. HUBERT. One of them drove the truck, I take it? Or did you have another man to drive?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; Johnny Smith was driving the larger truck, and I was in the little panel truck. And Supervisor Tom Bedford was driving the panel truck.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that on the first day?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's pass to the second day. That is to say, Saturday the 23d. And by way of orientation, let me state that by that time, of course, the President was dead and Oswald had been charged both with the assassination of Officer Tippit and President Kennedy, and was in custody at the Dallas Police Department Building on Commerce, the building bounded by Commerce and Main on two sides, and Harwood on the front.


Now, on that second day, the 23d, did you have occasion to be on duty with the remote truck that day?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. All day long?
Mr. WALKER. Well, we were called out of bed at 1 o'clock Saturday morning. Let's see, we burnt the engine up on the remote truck going to Parkland Hospital the day before, and it had to be towed over there by a wrecker, and I don't know exactly what time we got to the Dallas City Hall. It was probably something like 3 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park the truck, the remote truck?
Mr. WALKER. On the south side. That would be on Commerce Street, I believe. Right in front of the entrance.
Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the front, if you remember, roughly?
Mr. WALKER. Let's see, there was, I believe, another remote truck between our truck and the corner.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say the corner of Commerce and Harwood?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were closer to the Commerce Street entrance than that truck was?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; we were directly in front of the Commerce Street stairway.
Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street exit from the basement is just beyond the Commerce Street stairway in the direction of Pearl Street, the Pearl Expressway?
Mr. WALKER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. So I suppose it is fair to say that the front of your truck was not far from the Commerce Street exit?
Mr. WALKER. Well, the front of our truck was--there was just room enough for a motorcycle to park between the front of our truck and the driveway going to the basement of the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you had cameras on the inside, I take it?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And on the outside, too?
Mr. WALKER. And one on top of the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the truck stay there all that day?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; it stayed there all that day and that night.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the next day, the 24th?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was there all day the 24th up until, let's see, I won't tell you--I want to tell you very much, but this is very hard. That was a lost week for me. We slept very little, and most of the time I couldn't even tell you what day it was over there, so it is difficult to say.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way. To your knowledge, the truck never moved from its position as you have described it on Commerce Street until after the assassination of Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty continuously?
Mr. WALKER. The first day on Saturday, let's see, we came in at--they woke us up about a little after 1 in the morning, and I was there until, I know, after 10 that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday night?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; I was going to bring that schedule with me and I forgot. It was in last year's book.
Mr. HUBERT. Then at what time did you go to work on Sunday morning?
Mr. WALKER. I don't remember. It was early, but I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say it was daylight?
Mr. WALKER. It was right at daylight, I imagine. There was only one day that we came in late, and I believe it was later on in the week. We were over there early every morning except one, and we came in at 9 o'clock, that morning, but I believe it was later on on Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby or of his existence prior to, say, the assassination of the President?


Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see a man that you now know to be Jack Ruby, if you did see such a man?
Mr. WALKER. I did see him, and I would say it was sometime after 10:30 in the morning that Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, of the 24th?
Mr. WALKER. Let's see; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you didn't know him at the time you saw him?
Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record just how you came to see this person?
Mr. WALKER. I was sitting in the truck at the audio board. We were waiting for Oswald to be brought down. The press had been told he would not be transferred until after 10:30 in the morning. That is the only thing I can tie the time down to, because we were on a standby basis waiting for Oswald to be moved, and Ruby came to the window of the truck and asked, "Has he been brought down yet?" He was standing on the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know him to be Ruby at that time?
Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how he was dressed?
Mr. WALKER. No; I can't. All I could see was his face. It is a very small window. We have curtains, and I think it was one corner unsnapped.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?
Mr. WALKER. I don't know. He came to the window twice.
Mr. HUBERT. How far apart were the two times?
Mr. WALKER. I do not know. It was after 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he could have come to the window earlier than 10:30?
Mr. WALKER. I don't know. I don't believe at the time I saw him at the window, well, I am almost sure it was after 10:30, because I know I was sitting there. We were on a standby basis and waiting, and he did not mention Oswald's name, that I can remember.
It was, he just said, "Has he been brought down yet?" And everybody knew who he was talking about, or I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Ruby since?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times, do you suppose?
Mr. WALKER. I don't know. It was over--I was a witness during the trial. I saw him before I was a witness, and I saw them bring him into the courtroom one morning.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the times you saw him were in connection with your function as a TV man covering the trial?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I was asked by the district attorney's office to go look at Jack Ruby through the door of the courtroom prior to being a witness, to make sure that he was the same man that I saw come to the truck. And then I saw him while I was a witness.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did look through the door at the district attorney's request and saw Jack Ruby, what opinion did you reach?
Mr. WALKER. I knew it was the same man.
Mr. HUBERT. And you subsequently saw him in the court when you testified?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that the same man who was Jack Ruby in the courtroom was the man whom you described as coming up to the window?
Mr. WALKER. That was the same thing I told the Dallas district attorney, that the only reason I remember Jack Ruby is because within minutes after the shooting we had mug shots of Ruby on camera from the third floor of the city hall. And if it hadn't been for those mug shots being in such a close time after he came to the window, I probably would never have remembered seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the mental process you went through in relating the face at the window to the mug shots?


Mr. WALKER. Well, about four of us pointed at him at the same time in the truck. I mean, we all recognized him at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. As being the man?
Mr. WALKER. That had come to the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that that man who had peeked through the window had done so only a matter of minutes before, or would it have been an hour?
Mr. WALKER. I can't say. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. But as you sit here now, your best impression is that--better still, your opinion is that the man who did look through that window and asked you, "Have they brought him down yet?" was Jack Ruby?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you have confirmed that a number of times, to wit, almost immediately after when you saw the mug shots on TV, and then at least on two other occasions when you looked in through the window in the courtroom, and again when you were face to face with him in the courtroom?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that your seeing him as you have described it through the window, could have been on the previous day?
Mr. WALKER. No. He may have been there, but I don't remember him.
Mr. HUBERT. This event that you are talking about did not take place on the previous day?
Mr. WALKER. No. I have heard people say that he was on, that they had seen him on the sidewalk, but I did not, to my knowledge. There were so many people; a lot of people asked questions, and most of the time I say, "I don't know," hoping they will go on.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand, the thing that makes it certain in your mind that he was Jack Ruby is because of the association of the face that peered to you in the window and the mug shots that came through the camera right after?
Mr. WALKER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. The two link together in your mind?
Mr. WALKER. That is the only thing. I would not have remembered him if it had not been for the mug shots. There were so many people, there is no way I believe that I could have remembered him. And if he hadn't come back to the window the second time, I might not have linked it with the mug shots.
Mr. HUBERT. How much time was there, do you think, between the two times?
Mr. WALKER. I don't know. I really don't. I wish I could help but anything I'd say would be a wild guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Walker, I want to show you a report of an interview that was had of you by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley D. Madland on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as Fort Worth, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5315, deposition of Ira Walker, under which I have signed my name. I would like you to read it, sir, after which I am going to ask you if there are any errors or any corrections you want to make, anything that has been omitted, or modifications that you believe to be necessary.
Mr. WALKER. [Reading report.]
No. I wasn't the one that said, "I saw him between 7:30 and 8 a.m."
Mr. HUBERT. That FBI report which has been identified as 5315, contains the statement in the middle paragraph reading as follows, to wit:
"Walker said that on the morning of November 24, that the first time he recalled seeing Jack Ruby was shortly before the mobile unit was set up, which would have been between 7:30 and 8 a.m. Walker said that he first saw Ruby shortly after the armored truck was backed into the basement of the Police Department." Now would you address your comments to that statement, Mr. Walker?
Mr. WALKER. I believe one of the other boys said he saw him between 7:30 and 8, but it was not me because I don't remember seeing him. But as far as the association with the armored truck, now the armored truck was not backed into there until around 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that when you saw Ruby the first time----
Mr. WALKER. Was after 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Was after the armored truck was backed in?


Mr. WALKER. It was after I was on a standby basis and sitting in my seat in the truck just waiting for somebody to roll tape.
Mr. HUBERT. What does the standby basis mean in the TV industry?
Mr. WALKER. It means to stand by to go on the air any time on call at a moment's notice, because we had been told he would be moved after 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollection that the first time you saw him was after the armored truck moved in?
Mr. WALKER. I don't believe the armored truck was backed in until after 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. So as I understand it then, with respect to the language in Exhibit 5315, there are really two corrections that you wish to make. One is concerning the time 7:30 to 8, and the other is concerning the relation between your seeing Ruby and the truck backing into the ramp?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought, then, as I understand, is that it was considerably later than 7:30 or 8 o'clock, in fact, it was about 10:30?
Mr. WALKER. Or after.
Mr. HUBERT. Or after, but you think that it was before the armored truck backed in?
Mr. WALKER. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. It could be either?
Mr. WALKER It could be either; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You did see him twice, though?
Mr. WALKER. I did see him at the window twice.
Mr. HUBERT. It is possible that the first time you saw him, the armored truck had not backed in and the second time it had?
Mr. WALKER. It is possible; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would your best guess be, considering--well, I don't want you to guess. Would your best impression or opinion now be that the time that you first saw Ruby was less than an hour before the shooting of Oswald took place?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HuBERT. And that thereafter, the time that you saw him on the second time would have been less than an hour, too?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not have any recollection now, as I understand, as to the time interval between the two times you saw him?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have said that perhaps we should repeat what he told you on each occasion or what he said or asked?
Mr. WALKER. As near as I can remember, he just asked, "Has he been brought down?" or "Have they brought him down yet?"
Mr. HUBERT. On both occasions?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; and I am not sure, I probably told him "I don't know." It says here that I said, "No." But I have no way of knowing yes or no, really, which is true. We had cameras, and I could see what the cameramen were doing, but I still really have no way of knowing.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you'd better describe for the record what you meant by mug shots?
Mr. WALKER. Well, as I understand it, from listening on the intercom, we were told we were going to get pictures of Jack Ruby and that we would have to get them right away because our people did not have the pictures and would not be allowed to have them, and I assumed that someone from the police department would be holding those pictures, because they--we were told to get the tapes to rolling, because we wouldn't get a second shot at him. And it would just be, get them or miss them, and I presume that someone in the police department was holding those pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. In front of a camera inside the jail?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. It was that mug shot that you remembered talking about that immediately brought to your mind "this is the man I saw just before the shooting of Oswald, or sometime before the shooting"?


Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now have you been interviewed by any member of the President's Commission before this date, sir?
Mr. WALKER. No; only there were some FBI men came to the station, and I believe they are the men you mentioned here.
Mr. HUBERT. I meant members of the President's Commission?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. I have omitted to explore one area. You were called as a witness in the trial of Ruby?
Mr. WALKER. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the general nature of your testimony then?
Mr. WALKER. To state the same thing that I have here, that Jack Ruby came to the window of the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. You were called by the State?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. To the best of your recollection, has your testimony today been any different from that which you gave at the trial of Ruby?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Has there been anything omitted here that was brought out in the trial of Ruby when you were a witness?
Mr. WALKER. No; in fact, it has been covered much better. The State didn't bring out the fact that we saw mug shots, and the defense kind of tore me up on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when the defense tore you up, I suppose what they were trying to do is say you simply couldn't recall?
Mr. WALKER. They asked me how long I had known Ruby, which I did not know him, and they were trying to----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give the explanation as to the mug shots?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. But it is a fact that the mug shots, that your connection between the mug shots did in fact take place?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; that is the only real tie, is the fact that we had the mug shots. I probably wouldn't have remembered the man coming to the window if it hadn't been for the mug shots. I told District Attorney Wade that before I went in as a witness, but he didn't follow it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, to wrap it up, you are saying under oath now that the man at the window and the man in the mug shots and the man in the courtroom identified as Jack Ruby were one and the same person?
Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You have already testified that you recall the interview of you on December 4, by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley Madland. At the time you were interviewed, were you interviewed by those agents alone?
Mr. HUBERT. How did the interview take place?
Mr. WALKER. The two agents, myself, Warren Richey, Johnny Smith, and there might have been some others, Jimmy Turner was there part of the time of course, he introduced us to the FBI men, and I think he had already talked to him previously.
Mr. HUBERT. All of you were interviewed as a group rather than individually, is that right?
Mr. WALKER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you shown a copy of the notes relative to what your statements were?
Mr. WALKER. No; I have seen no notes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen any draft of the documents which have been identified as Exhibit 5315?
Mr. WALKER. Today is the first time I have ever seen that.
Mr. HUBERT. During the interview, did the FBI agents ask each of you to speak alone, or was it a composite sort of interview?
Mr. WALKER. It was composite. We spoke as we remembered the situation. I mean, everybody described the whole thing as it progressed along as best he could.


Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the FBI did by way of segregating the identification of each of you?
Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to----
Mr. WALKER. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

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