The testimony of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins was taken at 11 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins of the Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Wiggins, my name is Leon Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution of Congress, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant Wiggins. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, in particular to you, Lieutenant Wiggins, the nature of the inquiry tonight, is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. You have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, to wit, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who wrote him a letter asking you all be made available. The rules of the Commission provide that you be entitled, if you wish, to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that if a witness cares to do so, he may waive the 3-day written notice and, so, I now ask you if you are willing to waive this 3-day written notice which otherwise you would be entitled to?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I am willing to waive it.
Mr. HUBERT. So, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Woodrow Wiggins.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Forty-six.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. 319 West Corning Street, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What. is your occupation ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm a lieutenant on the Dallas Police Department.


Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Eighteen years.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been an--a lieutenant ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Since October 1, 1956.
Mr. HUBERT. What particular department do you serve with, sir ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I am with what is known as the service division. I have under my control the dispatcher's office, the jail and the service division and all the substations.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin, and over him would be----
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course, Chief Curry ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the line of command between you and Chief Curry is Batchelor, Lumpkin, then Wiggins?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That depends, of course. Could I quote here and say that on certain times I have different duties?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That I have a jail lieutenant that works for me, on his days off, I watch the jail, or pass on prisoners and supervise the jail as well as the other things, and when the jail lieutenant is there then I am at liberty to inspect substations and do---the dispatcher's offices and the jail, wherever I may be needed.
Mr. HUBERT. On November 24, what was your situation ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was working the jail. My jail lieutenant was off that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, working the jail entails what responsibilities and duties?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm in charge of everything that goes on in the jail, and among other duties, I pass on all prisoners that are put into jail.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "pass," on them, what do you mean?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I check to see their--the arrest is legal, and that I think the charge is proper and that this person belongs in jail before he is placed in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you any duties or responsibilities with respect to the transfer of prisoners, in your capacity as jail lieutenant?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Nothing more than as is normal to turn them over to either the constable or deputy sheriff who transfers them to the county jail.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to prisoners who are transferred from the city jail to the county jail, is it customary for your department to transfer them to the county jail, or is it customary for the State deputies to come and get the prisoner?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. It is customary for the deputy sheriff or constable to come and get a prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why an exception was made in the case of Oswald?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was never told.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, normally, it would have been Sheriff Decker's duty to come and get Oswald, is that correct?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Normally, it would have been that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know, or did you ever hear it discussed, the reason why the normal procedure was not followed?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I haven't. When I make that statement--I have surmised that it was for better protection due to the fact that we have more men, possibly, than Sheriff Decker did. That is strictly a surmise of mine, of my own.
Mr. HUBERT. What security had you provided for Oswald within the jail itself?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, as a rule, we used a trustee to run our jail elevator. I relieved the trustee from the jail elevator and placed a patrolman on it. And put two officers in front of Oswald's cell at all times.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 24th, or at all times since he was arrested?


Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, that was--the 24th, was my first day back since that time. I had been off 2 days prior to that.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you came on duty on the 24th, did you find that security which you have described, already in existence?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I found that they had one officer in front of the cell, but that they didn't--they still had a trustee running the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. And you changed that. You took the trustee off and put an extra man on the cell ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that Oswald was moved in the course of the 24th a couple of times for interviews and so forth? ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I know that I received a call from the fifth floor that some detectives from the homicide bureau were up there to take him out on what they call a "tempo," and this is to take him out for interrogation.
Mr. HUBERT, When he was taken out that way, was he accompanied by the guard that you assigned?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; the guard could not take him to the interrogation room.
Mr. HUBERT. And "tempo," is a receipt for a prisoner which relieves you, temporarily, of the duties you have with respect to him ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.
Mr. HUBERT. And when he is brought back, your duties and responsibilities for his custody attach to you again?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the search of the basement for security ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I was in and out of the basement looking it over, but I had no duties with the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you remain in the jail office performing your functions as to incoming prisoners?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any of the plans for removal of Oswald, or the transfer?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I knew of no plans. I had been informed by the platoon that--I believe that it was understood that he would be transferred after 10 o'clock in the morning. Now, that was----
Mr. HUBERT. No one gave you any orders or assigned any duties to you in connection with the transfer?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any sheriff come with a warrant for his release?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, under normal circumstances would you allow a prisoner to be removed by the city police?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He would be out of your custody on "tempo," is that right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not necessarily. Let me say this: that the--that the city police transfer prisoners on occasion over to the county jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. But, this is rare. It is--there are instances I can name. For instance, they have filed on a prisoner and just for courtesy to the prisoner, more or less, he wants to get to the county and they just transfer him on down to the county themselves.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you relieve yourselves of responsibility in those circumstances?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Each prisoner who is transferred, the card is signed, or the name of the officer that is making the transfer is placed on his card. His property is turned over to the officer making the transfer.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this done in this way ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No: in this case, they were going to take the property later.
Mr. HUBERT. Naturally, he was in the custody of Captain Fritz at the time of the transfer, isn't that right?


Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. He had been released from your custody by a "tempo" card to Fritz?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.
Mr. HUBERT. And Fritz could do what he wanted with him? Until he relieved himself of the obligation of the "tempo" card by putting him back in your custody?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you first aware that Oswald was going to be moved in the immediate future?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. When was I aware that he was en route, or----
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Or, being moved to the county?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'd say possibly a minute before the shooting occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--Captain Fritz' office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the elevator with Oswald, and I know that when I hung the phone up I looked in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in your statement you fix that moment at 11:20. How do you fix that? Do you remember now how you fixed that?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I remember looking at our clock as they came by. I don't know why, but I looked, just to be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Big electric clock on the wall there.
Mr. HUBERT. The wall that is adjacent to the ramp?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, I don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it," it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor, that clock is on the wall to your right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you all check it frequently?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank to get the time, but----
Mr. HUBERT. Will you estimate just how accurate that clock is, normally, and was on the day in question, the 24th?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I would say that it was possibly, I'm sure, not over 2 to 3 minutes off either way.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there could be a 6 minutes difference?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I certainly don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I mean. In other words, you say it could be 3 minutes off either way, then there could be a difference no, I see what you mean. Could be a difference of only 3 minutes. Have you ever known it to be that much off?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. I don't recall the time that I----
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. And, now, I don't recall on any particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having set it. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your business of running the jail office?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Repeat that question. I am not sure I understand what you mean.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that the time of various events, like the time of a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

731-228 0---64--vol. XII--26

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the time and the entry of that time on the record is a part of your function?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you rely on that clock?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Most of the time. Sometimes I look at my watch, but most of the time I look at the clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, 11:20, you have as the time you first noticed the elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that I guess they passed by?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; the time at 11:20 that I am speaking of, I remember I looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator.
Mr. HUBERT. It was 11:20 just then?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of course, that is only a matter of seconds.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, they passed by you ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. As they came down, and as they came off the elevator Captain Fritz was the first man off, and he said, "Are they ready?" And I know that then I stepped out of the door, and I don't recall whether I ever answered him or not, but I stepped out into the corridor first. If I would have answered him I am sure I have--would have told him that it was ready, but I don't recall whether I did or didn't because I presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and I know I stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the door. I stepped to the left possibly 3 or 4 feet from the door, and they passed me then.
Mr. HUBERT. On your right?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; they passed me with Oswald at that time, and had proceeded past me approximately 6 or 7 feet when the incident happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shooting at all ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but not at the time of the shooting. I saw the gun after the officers had grabbed it and had swarmed Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Describe Jack Ruby coming out of the group.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I saw a man coming out. I had no idea who it was, but, I mean, it happened so quickly I caught it in the corner of my eye, and I saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd, but I didn't know at that time who it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Just about what position in the crowd did he come from?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. If you were familiar with that location I could tell you exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of identifying it, I am going to mark this document as follows, "Dallas, Tex, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5076, deposition of Woodrow Wiggins." And I am signing my name to it, and I ask you, for the purpose of identification to sign beneath my name. Now, first of all, you--using the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, I ask you to mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a circle actually at the place where you were.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Where my position was?
Mr. HUBERT. At the time the shot was fired.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right, sir. I had come out of this door and I had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle there.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am writing--you have marked a little mark there and I have put a circle around it and I am marking here, "Position of Wiggins at the time of the shot." And circling that, is that corect?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That is prexactly (sic) correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now on that same map would you put a mark which I am also going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can recollect it where you first saw Ruby coming out.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. The spot where he was?
Mr. HUBERT. Where he was.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. When I saw him?


Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. Now, look at the mockup first and get your distances.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I have an idea or just about----
Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark it there, the spot there were you first saw Ruby ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Approximately. I could miss this a foot or 2, you understand that?
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. Now, your cameras were over here behind the behind this with the lights, and where I saw him, he was approximately, I'd say, about there [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking this--Lieutenant Wiggins has marked a spot in the basement area. I am putting a circle around that spot, and connecting it with a line, I am writing "Position of Ruby when seen by Wiggins." Is that correct, sir?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. Now, this spot that I would be--that I would say to be to where I first noticed that--the movement that attracted my attention right there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. And by the time that I had time to think and look, it was over, but that is approximately the place.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. You had known Jack Ruby before this, I understand?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I have known Jack Ruby for years.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize him?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. The first time that I recognized him, who it was was after they brought him into the jail office. He was on the floor still covered, or surrounded by the officers is when they picked him up off the floor and stood him on his feet in the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't recall him saying anything there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him afterwards?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I talked to you the--I talked to him the next morning. I went up to see if he was all right. This was approximately 6:45, the following morning, I went to see that he was all right. I asked him how he was feeling, and he said, "As well as could be expected." And I asked him if he was being treated all right. And he said, "Yes; they are treating me fine."
And I don't recall saying anything else to him at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you--have you spoken to him since ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who called a doctor?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; when the shot was fired, as soon as I saw that I could be of no help out there, they had Ruby. They had the man, and they were surrounding--I immediately whirled, came in the office, and when I found one of my officers there, Slack, I told him to call the doctor, that Oswald had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you then notice what time it was?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I didn't. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Slack was where?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. He was standing right by the desk inside the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he put the call in?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; he called himself, then let me say this, that after they brought Ruby in, then I turned and came back out the door and after they had brought Ruby and Oswald, after they had gotten him in I checked by telephone myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you speak to then?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I called one of them in the dispatcher's office, but I don't remember who I checked with.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document purporting to be a letter dated November 27, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, by marking on the right-hand margin these words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, and Exhibit 5074. Deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the


second page. I am marking a four-page document purporting to be a report of an interview with you by special agents of the FBI, Chapoton and Smith, dated December 2, 1963, by writing in the right margin on the first page of that document the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5075, deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name and I am placing my initials on a second, third and fourth page of that document by putting those initials in the lower right-hand corner. I ask you to look at those two exhibits and tell me whether you have had an opportunity to read them?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent what you know to be the truth?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; there is an error on the third page.
Mr. HUBERT. Of which one ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of the document taken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state what you consider to be the error and give us what you consider to be the truth ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. It starts on the eighth line, on the top of the third page where it starts--the sentence starts, "They had proceeded some 6 or 7 feet--" Excuse me. It is the one in front of that. The latter part of the last sentence of the eighth line. Sentence reads, "In their midst, were out past him, Wiggins," and it should read, "In their midst, went out past him, Wiggins."And the next sentence----
Mr. HUBERT. I'm not sure I got that distinction.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. See this? See this then should be, "Went out past him." Not, "were out past him."
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in the eighth line, the fourth word from the end of the eighth line should be the word "went" instead of the word "were," is that correct ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. Also, the next sentence, as it is written here, "They proceeded some 6 or 7 feet from the jail office door when he, Wiggins, saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the report of the gun." That sentence should read, "They had proceeded some 6 or 7 feet past Wiggins when Wiggins saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the report of a gun."
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as the exhibit itself now reads, or as the sentence now reads it gives the impression that they had proceeded 6 or 7 feet from the jail door.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, your recollection is that it was 6 or 7 feet from where you were standing, and were you--you were standing about 3 or 4 feet from the jail door, so that to catch the sense properly it would be that they had proceeded about 10 to 11 feet past the jail door.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. True.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, are there any other corrections or modifications?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; rest of it is---
Mr. HUBERT. Are there errors in either of those two exhibits?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. The rest of it is as I----
Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions that you would like to correct, or----
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Anything to be deleted?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Wiggins, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff, other than myself?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, with respect to myself, we had an interview last night, did we not?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, are there any inconsistencies that you are aware of between the matters discussed in our interview last night and your deposition taken tonight?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, we didn't discuss this last night. You and I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss it with Mr.----
Lieutenant WIGGINS. We--I didn't discuss any of this. The only thing that


I discussed with any one last night was with you, and that was that the time and so forth that I would be here tonight.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When did you get to read your statement?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. Last night. You gave your report to me last night.
Mr. HUBERT. But, we had no other discussion?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; not on this.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in fact, there was really no interview with even with me?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. When you speak of interview, I meant conversation. I did have conversation with you last night, but not anything pertaining to this.
Mr. HUBERT. Nothing inconsistent that happened between the interview of last night and what you said today ?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor, I take it, is there anything of a material nature that transpired in the interview of last night which has not been developed tonight?
Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't believe I quite understand what you mean.
Mr. HUBERT. In view of the fact that you have already stated we had not discussed it, I think it answers itself, but the point I am wanting to make is there was, nothing that was talked about last night that we didn't talk about today, obviously that is so, because it wasn't talked about last night.
Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.